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  1. #1
    Community Member Snapdragoon's Avatar
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    Smile Shadowfell update: a review by the players

    figured we should all try and give feedback because some people do listen. as a guide I think we should avoid over simplification of thoughts such as "this update sucks" okay, why do you feel that way? was there something that you did like? what was it and why?

    also please be sure to include some bad, as well as some good, all feedback is good feedback for the most part (see above over simplification)

    the good for me:
    -im enjoying the 2 new quest packs very much, the quests are all different and share different mechanics. highlights were leading a competent but unfamiliar pug through a mirror darkly to a great finish. and the quest that takes place in the mountain pass where we have to stop supplies **special note** this quest was awesome for the reason that the players were on the offensive, we were setting traps and creating choke points in the canyons. a few of us left that quest actually commenting that it was "fun" I will repeat this quest because it is fun, if not for loot.

    -the prison and storm horns. love the two new wilderness areas, both very different in feel and scope, I REALLY like the prison I find myself spending a lot of time doing slayer because I enjoy the area, and I hate slayer.

    -random loot is good again, this is a good thing but I feel it may have went too far outclassing some previous EE gear, its always good to improve gear but I think it went a tiny bit over, hopefully you wont increase it further come level 30.

    -psudo named end rewards, that was a neat idea and thoughtful for people that might not have that great of stuff yet.

    -EP I was not doom and gloom about this. and lucky for me there was no reason to be, yes some things are different and there are a lot of active abilities now but I feel it was good for the game. for 1) it is simple to use and easy to plan. and 2) multiclassing seems more healthy then ever, and that is a great thing. I look forward to seeing the new builds thought up in the following months.


    the bad for me:
    -obvious money grabs, I have nothing against paying for a game, im not a sub but I own every pack and expansion, buy plenty of cosmetic gear, and even bought an ottos box to speed up a TR life. that said +5 tomes in the store, and all this astral shard nonsense is just silly. im not a fan of it, and you will never convince me to participate in it.

    -the bugs, lots of em, but it is to be expected with any expansion and I hope it will all be mostly resolved come the first patch.

    -explorer locations tied to rare encounters. please stop it, its annoying.



    that is all from me, cannot really think up anything else at the moment. hope to hear anything else has to say

  2. #2
    Community Member zDragonz's Avatar
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    Default Wheloon.

    I agree that some gear that is epic in now worthless, such as, 'The Blood Stone', needs an upgrade as it is obsolete now. Make it more powerful.

    Journals again in the explorerer, but this time are shields and not journals, but easier to see, so I guess this one is cool? Even though they are called journals they are shields? Huh, whatever.

    The High Road was changed to level 18. This is a good change.

    level 15 gear, the level 15 necklace that adds plus 4 equipment bonus to evocation DC's is too powerful. This is overboard! Slow down please. Stop making gear like this such a low level please.

    I like that there is female NPC Dragon Knights now. This is a good change.

    Shadow Stalkers do not fit their profile in the monster manual and are nothing but annoying as scorpions is. The game did not take into account the true potential of this monster and instead made them weak. They run away and appear again, but do not have a counter attack when they do this. They simply just avoid and prolong die-ing by disappearing and that is it. Cool though, and a fresh graphic for a monster.

    The key to open a room to get an explorer is so over done that I only had fun finding the key, but then found out the key is on the ground in a dead end area of Wheloon. The fact that it is just sitting there is lame and the fact that the game went there again is lame too. Stop with the, "Key", concept already. You guys do it every time and it is "wa, wa, wa"!
    Drum beat with Symbol! Budum Spash!

    I like the over all uniqueness of Wheloon as it is fresh.

    It says that Iconic cannot be Reincarnated yet. The key word here is, yet. This is going to be something I am going to watch and keep updated on.

    Overall I think Wheloon is was done well, but the weapons have made too much of a leap forward.

    I do not want to see Diamonds with every single available buff. This will make the game overdone and not well thought out. The Augment system is out of control and needs to take a step back. Everything that does not have an augment is considered worthless at the moment unless it is named or greensteal. And even some random loot that is very low in level is becoming worthless unless it has an augment.

    Spell craft skill should be used in crafting too and not just spell power. Is this going to happen? Or is it already?

    Bank space is needed for all this new gear that is bound to character on acquire.

  3. #3
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    The Good:

    The Enchantment Pass. This was EPIC. (Sorry for the short bit) but really, imho, everything about this was great. The additional options, the ability to multi-PRE, the fact that there was a good number of PRE's finished off, quite literally, this was a truly amazing thing done by the Turbine Staff, and for me at least, it revitalized the game. I would say as far as game revamp and game changing, the new Enhancement pass rivals the ED's in every way. I realize that my SD fighter will no longer be able to dual wield and still spout some amazing HP, but with what he got in return that little loss is worth it, I am now even pondering new ways to rebuild him, as he has been on the back burner since I leveled him to 20th, which as been forever ago.

    Really, this was the Shining Gem of the Expansion in my feelings on things.

    The Meh (Middle Ground):

    Quests: The F2P Quests (as I have not bought the other quests): I can't speak for anyone else on this, but I feel that CR23 trash mobs in a 17th level quest is a bit much. For those that loved this, kudos, It was not my flavor.

    I admit that I have not completed the F2P chain yet, so we shall see how this finishes out, right now, I am not thrilled, but, at the same time I did enjoy the first quest, it was great fun, the Lions, the whole idea of capturing the bad guys as opposed to just leaving bad-guy bodies all over the place was great! The owl bear fight at the end was really amazing, and I loved how they lost control of it which starts the fight. Really fun stuff! But the second fight, with CR23 Lizard men gang attacking, not so grand. So it kinda sits at Meh with me right now.

    Paragon Classes: I totally admit that they look really cool, and I think they have some nifty abilities to them too but not sure. I have to say that the idea of starting at 15th is enticing. But, I dunno, they just don't jump out at me yet. They just don't give me the feeling that I should spend money on this class, personally, and again, just me, the biggest hurdle I face with them is that I can't TR into them, and I am not big on alts, I mean, really, I am not into alts that much at all, I have 2 main toons, and 3 alts (of which 2 of them had been demoted to Bank toons, but that might change with the Enhancement pass) so that could be a unique thing to me, and the population loves them. Which is great and why they hit the Middle Ground.

    The Bad:

    The Loot: It's hard for me to put into words how this seeming need to revive Loot-Gen makes me feel. I mean, on hand, I have to give whoever worked on this a pat on the back for all their time and effort, at the same time, I am left wondering why do this?

    It's hard to explain, but, as I started to play the game, I spent time collecting gear (Mainly loot gen and the occasional named item form a standard quest) so that I would have good enough "starter gear" to allow me to get into the a I called them "Big Boy Quests" (IE: Raids), where the loot was supposedly top notch, that is why were we running the raids long after we stopped getting exp, or with people that killed the exp we could have gotten (over level penalty), all in the name of acquiring the "Good Stuff" the top tier stuff.

    And you know, there was a lot of bonding going on at the time as well, we would share stories about who was looking for what, we would talk about those epic rolls like winning a Green Blad with a roll of 3 on a d100, and amazing pulls (like getting locked out VoN, twice and then wining the roll on a SoS),and I would look forward to running with friends I made doing these raids, the truth was, This Loot, this raid loot, was a huge part of our culture here in DDO, our discussions would be around that, and lets be real, many of our builds depended on having the right synergy of gear and stats, a lot of that info of what had what, involved named loot.

    And you know, I admit I spent money on packs so I could raid with the people I knew, so we could all get excited about the loot, some of them telling me about how they have been farming for a single item for years, I know myself, I had been looking for an item for the last 5 lives on my main, we talk about the price of Bypass timers, and things like that, horror stories of Bad Pug raids, (we have all been there I think) and I look at this new loot-gen coming out and I think to myself:

    "All that time, all those raids, all that planning, all those lost rolls and skunked runs, all that prep, money, and in some cases real life cash, just got invalidated by some random loot-gen from some random chest in some random quest."

    I really don't have words for how that makes me feel.

  4. #4
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    "All that time, all those raids, all that planning, all those lost rolls and skunked runs, all that prep, money, and in some cases real life cash, just got invalidated by some random loot-gen from some random chest in some random quest."

    I really don't have words for how that makes me feel.
    This is part of the risk taken when paying for convenience. Once the masses all have the loot they want, that cash cow dries up unless they sweeten the carrot - however, this invalidates the previous loot in the eyes of those who want best in slot items, and many of those folks paid to attain the previous crop of best in slot items.

    Me personally, I think good random gen loot is the best thing that ever happened to this game. If Turbine is interested in curbing some of the 2 minute quest farming, making every single chest just as valid as the next one is part of the way to do it. The XP ransack mechanic which is very close to what many players suggested on the forums a while back, is the other component. Now people can play content because they enjoy it, and not feel obligated to play specific content they may not enjoy because an item they want only drops from that content.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  5. #5
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Me personally, I think good random gen loot is the best thing that ever happened to this game.
    I respect that You feel that way, we don't agree, nor shall we ever.

    But no point in bickering, the truth is, time will tell if you are right in your feelings that this the best thing to happen to DDO. We shall see.

  6. #6
    Community Member relenttless's Avatar
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    One thing in particular I really like is the Sagas, the 2 that have been established are a neat idea, giving a reason for older established toons to re-run some of the older Motu content (one of the more obnoxious,self-styled,uber players on my server described these as "obsolete quests" the other day, which made me chuckle....what a bell-end).
    Anyway, its a great way to make it more worthwhile to gain PDK favour, 100k exp or the skill tomes are decent rewards.

    Would love to see this expanded on in the future, an obvious one would be GH, do all flagging and all walk-ups for a saga. Likewise maybe Vale+ Amrath and or some 12 qsts...Maybe Necro?
    "Implosion: For when you just HAVE to kill every M**********R in the room"-
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  7. #7
    Community Member Satyriasys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zDragonz View Post
    Journals again in the explorerer, but this time are shields and not journals, but easier to see, so I guess this one is cool? Even though they are called journals they are shields? Huh, whatever.
    LOL those are not shields.
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  8. #8
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    The good

    The ep came out ok, some problems but not as bad as feared
    The art department did a good job

    The bad
    shard icon on main screen
    as teleport
    large explorers with no loot, poor xp/min, and no challenge leaving no reason to want to be in them
    fight design for end fights borrowed from nwo it feels like, have one bag of hp and adds, a lot of adds.
    Secret door changes
    graphic effects of shadowfell giving some people headaches
    graphic effects of wgu flying effects giving me motion sickness
    named loot design that is underpowered
    named loot design with too much randomness
    random loot design that is more powerful than the named items
    xp ransack changes fix a player concern by killing the ability to farm, if you want to stop farming go more carrot and less stick and people would do it anyways.

  9. #9
    Community Member FAQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    [COLOR=#0000ff]

    "All that time, all those raids, all that planning, all those lost rolls and skunked runs, all that prep, money, and in some cases real life cash, just got invalidated by some random loot-gen from some random chest in some random quest."

    I really don't have words for how that makes me feel.
    Couldn't agree more with you.

  10. #10
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    The Good

    I've spent all of my time running in the new content on both heroic and epic levels I totally am enjoying the explorer areas and the quests within

    • The two new explorer areas - One small and one huge
    • The new quests - each is different it doesn't feel like a copy cat/cut and paste of something already existing
    • The Enhancement Pass - My initial reviews I was mixed as I saw great improvements for my Wizard, but my Paladin seemed to be getting the raw deal. After the finial release I was able to see a good path for my paladin and am enjoying playing them (but still some tweaks are needed to the paladin abilities such as DM)
    • Wizard Undead Shrouds no longer get unapplied when zoning into a quest



    The Bad
    • Groups I've been in and even myself personally have experienced extreme slow downs/lag when you are surrounded - this makes wave fights rather difficult when there are 20+ mobs on the screen
    • The Deathward effecting Undead Shroud by blocking negative energy healing
    • The Gear sets from Quest completion of the Wheloon Prison and The Storm Horns quest lines - Only some of the items have Augments. I don't think they need Purple/Orange Augments but it would be nice to get a Clear/Yellow/Green on all of the gear as I see it looks like it was intended to be a consolidation plus upgrade to players



    Overall I'm having a blast with the expansion and tweaking of enhancements on my characters

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I respect that You feel that way, we don't agree, nor shall we ever.

    But no point in bickering, the truth is, time will tell if you are right in your feelings that this the best thing to happen to DDO. We shall see.
    Well, actually, Chai is right that "good random gen loot is the best thing....". Unfortunately, what this update provided is absolutely not good random loot gen. Its hyper-inflated and instead of adding to or expanding on the existing loot naming system it pretty much reinvents it. Its disgusting.
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  12. #12
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobbinB View Post
    Well, actually, Chai is right that "good random gen loot is the best thing....". Unfortunately, what this update provided is absolutely not good random loot gen. Its hyper-inflated and instead of adding to or expanding on the existing loot naming system it pretty much reinvents it. Its disgusting.
    Its still good random gen loot. People are checking the brokers and the AH more than ever now, because alot of items which are near perfect, but not quite perfect, still make their toon more powerful than the stuff they had in that slot previously. Some of my favorite eras of this game were when random generated loot actually mattered even for running challenging content. It also cultivates an atmosphere where every single chest matters - which in turn cultivates the atmosphere that running optionals matters, because optionals can generate chests.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Its still good random gen loot. People are checking the brokers and the AH more than ever now, because alot of items which are near perfect, but not quite perfect, still make their toon more powerful than the stuff they had in that slot previously. Some of my favorite eras of this game were when random generated loot actually mattered even for running challenging content. It also cultivates an atmosphere where every single chest matters - which in turn cultivates the atmosphere that running optionals matters, because optionals can generate chests.
    What other options do players have? I check vendors simply because there is no where else to get any of the things I need. Where do I go to get my Radiance club of Radiance Lore for my light spells? I can't craft it. I can't farm a quest/raid for it. All this change did is turn loot into a huge gamble with unintened side effects (people now vendor the garbage stuff and this further decreases the value of plat which was already low).

    Some randomness is good. Complete chaos and "hoping for the best" isn't.

  14. #14
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobbinB View Post
    Well, actually, Chai is right that "good random gen loot is the best thing....". Unfortunately, what this update provided is absolutely not good random loot gen. Its hyper-inflated and instead of adding to or expanding on the existing loot naming system it pretty much reinvents it. Its disgusting.
    Actually what most players seem to miss, is that Pre-MotuD, we HAD good Loot-gen, in fact some of it rivaled Raid gear.

    case in Point: when Crafting came out (which only gave Loot-gen abilities) it was quickly seen that some combos were surprisingly powerful, IE: +4 Holy Burst Silver (weapon) Of Greater Evil Outsider bane. Near to the best boos beater in the game, short of some epic weapons, and it could be found on loot gen.

    The trick was, because of the way Loot-gen worked, it was rarer to find that stars aligned item then it was to run the raid, which makes sense, when you consider that it had a chance to drop from any random chest of the appropriate level, far more of those chests were getting opened then raid chests, but even then, once you find something like that, it did not find it way to the AH, you kept it! That was a super rare find and a very powerful weapon, but since your chances of getting that were lower then getting say, Green Steel form Shroud, players ran raids for guaranteed drops, as opposed to a roll of the dice for Loot-gen, which may never come after thousands of chests.

    Not to mention that Single Stat + State items, or + Skill Items were sought after for twink gear, and even in the later levels a +15 Skill item (like Disarm/Search) was still used, because of the way a lot of the named gear world, like Tinkers Set, with a +10 base and a +5 exceptional, most trappers till kept a +15, for the times when they needed a bit more.

    So, Loot gen, never lost it's place, even if some people had no idea what they were looking at . When crafting came out, it really showed what "Loot-gen" could do with the right combs, and it was not found lacking in any sense of the word.

    Even after that, players were excited bout loot-gen, from blanks to raw mats, Loot-gen came alive with the introduction of Crafting.

    But still during this time, named items held their place as being worthy to have names. I mean really, that is kind of the whole idea of it being a named item to start with, that it is special enough to be worth having it's own unique name.

    But this, phase of loot, it really warps what was the established trend of power balance between named/raid gear, and loot gen.

    We shall see what becomes of this, I will say if other MMO's pulled this kind of stuff, it would run the risk of being a death knell for them.

  15. #15
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    But this, phase of loot, it really warps what was the established trend of power balance between named/raid gear, and loot gen.
    The loot is higher level. That doesn't make it better, it makes it applicable to a different range of characters. There is named loot in the expansion (Goatskin boots, etc), it's just that everyone is not swimming in choices yet.

    What is actually rather disconcerting is if you compare Shroud gear (level 12) to level 27 gear. You would expect a massive difference, right? Well, there isn't much of one. You can get +9 to a stat on a Shroud weapon, you can get +6, +4, and +2 boosts to about 10 different skills that STACK with other items (for a total of about +40 overall). You can get +45 resistance with clicky effects on anything but a ring or a necklace. It's rather strange, imo, that I find myself using my radiance and enervation scimitars on my kensei more often than many of the other scimitars and khopeshes I have available.

    If you think that loot supersedence is bad now, you should have been here for when the Shroud was released. Talk about making everything else completely irrelevant.

    The main thing that I find bad about this expansion is that it made everything that was really, really wrong with the game worse. Ranged combat is completely out of control, casters are instakilling indiscriminately, and broken mechanics like Spellsong Vigor and Radiant Aura/Blast were made more effective and more broken. The game was made significantly more complex and difficult-to-use for your standard casual player, and power creep made playerbase gaps larger.

    Either the developers have no ability to analyze what is happening in regular groups playing their game, or they simply no longer care about anything but designing uber characters and taking shortcuts/easy-buttons to achieve them. I should introduce them to ProgressQuest, and maybe they would become so absorbed they'd forget to mess with the game...

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pentaur-Silvermane View Post
    What other options do players have? I check vendors simply because there is no where else to get any of the things I need. Where do I go to get my Radiance club of Radiance Lore for my light spells? I can't craft it. I can't farm a quest/raid for it.
    Sages Skullcap (Breaking the Ranks ends)
    110 fort
    19% Radiance Lore
    132 Radiance spell power
    Yellow slot.

    That's raid loot as far as I'm concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pentaur-Silvermane View Post
    All this change did is turn loot into a huge gamble with unintened side effects (people now vendor the garbage stuff and this further decreases the value of plat which was already low).

    Some randomness is good. Complete chaos and "hoping for the best" isn't.
    Chai is right (hopefully he doesn't slip that into his sig and claim it's about P2W heheh), everything being static named loot in meta gamed quests is bad on so many levels.

    Named loot is still there, and Random loot mattering will take some adjustment to, but once you adjust many quests will be fun to run because instead of being devoid of something you might like, there will always be the potential for a random drop.

    Honestly DDO should have long since made even named items far more random in location. DDO suffers massive attrition between updates due I believe in large part to boredom of meta gaming the same quests over and over.
    You guys filibustering a new mode have already succeeded in scaring the Dev's into not doing it the right way and re-scaling the existing settings, why in the world are you still filibustering? Drunk on your success? Schadenfreude? Spitefulness?

  17. #17
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    The loot is higher level. That doesn't make it better, it makes it applicable to a different range of characters. There is named loot in the expansion (Goatskin boots, etc), it's just that everyone is not swimming in choices yet.

    What is actually rather disconcerting is if you compare Shroud gear (level 12) to level 27 gear. You would expect a massive difference, right? Well, there isn't much of one. You can get +9 to a stat on a Shroud weapon, you can get +6, +4, and +2 boosts to about 10 different skills that STACK with other items (for a total of about +40 overall). You can get +45 resistance with clicky effects on anything but a ring or a necklace. It's rather strange, imo, that I find myself using my radiance and enervation scimitars on my kensei more often than many of the other scimitars and khopeshes I have available.

    If you think that loot supersedence is bad now, you should have been here for when the Shroud was released. Talk about making everything else completely irrelevant.
    Ok looking at GS having +9, that is +6 base, which a +10, can found off loot get, and you can gem in a +1 and a +2, which means at 27th if you are not at at least +13 in your primary stats, you're simply sub-par, and to be at +9 with a +3 exceptional, means you are wasting slots at that point when a single slot can give you +11 to +12, and you slot in the other + you need to get to +13 in another area, that can give you a +10 to a secondary stat. While sure you could use GS in the Epic Levels, but that would be like wearing +4 con item at 20th, you're simply not up to speed on what you could be using.

    Right now, the issue is NOT that that gear is being replaced, is that Raid/Named gear is being commonly outclassed by Loot Gen. To Outclass one series of raid gear with another raids gear, is acceptable, in fact Players are not upset that gear gets upgraded in that manner, we all understand that one raid out pacing another is what most players consider "part of the game", it is what, in many ways, entices players to run the higher level raids when they get there, as opposed to just being content with what they have.

    Which is why many people looked to LoB to replace Shroud, and in may ways it did, and in other ways it didn't. So it was an alternative means to get loot, sadly, shortly after it came out, MoutD hit and then invalidated that raid as well.

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