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  1. #1
    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
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    Default Str vs Dex on a Halfling Rogue

    It's this time of the year again!

    With the upcoming enhancements, Rogues will be able to use Dex as a Damage stat for Daggers and Kukris. I'm trying to find out if this is actually a viable option for my rogue.

    If I am not mistaken, there are a few permanent buffs which favor Str over Dex, namely Abishai Set (where the other bonuses are largely uninteresting) and Nether Grasp (+2 Profane) but there are Titan's Grip Gloves (+6 Str) and Primal Scream (+5 Str). On the other hand, a Halfling Rogue can start with 20 Dex instead of 16 Str (+4), has access to racial enhancements (+1 or +2) as well as assassin and acrobat enhancements (+1 to +3). In total, it looks like the total Str bonus in this case is a +13; maybe +15 if you take a destiny with Str bonuses. On the other hand, the total Dex bonus is something between +6 and +9.

    It looks like Dex is offering a similar stat number when it comes to sustainable numbers, but less damage when it comes to burst dps. I conclude that Dex is viable if you are interested in good sustainable dps and don't value burst dps that highly.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by karl_k0ch; 08-19-2013 at 03:57 AM.
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  2. #2
    Community Member Wanesa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karl_k0ch View Post
    It's this time of the year again!

    With the upcoming enhancements, Rogues will be able to use Dex as a Damage stat for Daggers and Kukris. I'm trying to find out if this is actually a viable option for my rogue.

    Thoughts?
    Running Halfling Bard with Weapon Finesse (no DEX to damage) and it is doable and fun. Focus to DEX helps you with attack, AC and reflex saves , all this is required by the rogue. I plan to be rogue in next life and going to focus on DEX only.

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  3. #3
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanesa View Post
    Focus to DEX helps you with attack, AC and reflex saves , all this is required by the rogue.
    Just to step in here.
    1) You can hit high attack bonuses being str based (due to having more buff options), so that's hardly a valid point.
    2) AC... Just no.
    3) Reflex. Okay, I've got nothing to say here. Dex wins.

    To OP:
    From what I understand of the argument, it boils down to this: Str is still ahead, even on a halfling rogue, but only just. (from dps/attack perspective)
    The limiting weapons is a PITA, but dex to dmg opens up options for dex builds, which is nice.

    Assuming the current best weapon was a dagger, I'd go dex over str, even with less dmg/attack bonus. The reflex save bonus would be worth it to me. (more reflex never hurts)

    Of course, I tend to make int based assassins if I go rogue - having the option to go int/dex based is great for me.

  4. #4
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    I started over 2.5 years ago as a dex rogue, then went full str and have advocated that for awhile.
    However, I asked myself that exact same question with the EP.


    I do use dual Agonys for most of my work, and add to that, that the assassin tree has increased crit range for daggers (so 16-20= 25% crits. It stacks with keen, checked on lam). But only Kukri i have is EMG.
    However I also use a bunch of short swords and some rapiers (lot more named shorts than rapiers for some reason) so this would mean I would need to retake wep finesse. Something I don't really want to do.

    And as mentioned above, we do lose half the benefit of primal scream (offset by the 16 max str to begin with as compared to races that start higher)

    However, as far as I can tell, the name of the game will be defense and here the higher reflex should help. And true, its possible to get your str way higher than dex, but much of our offense is from crits, procs, SA, ED stuff etc. I wonder how much I will really be hurt by dropping say ~15 str (<-- don't nitpick here please, unless you really have the math, then please share) and putting it into dex.

    Would love to hear more discussion on this now.
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  5. #5
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    Isn't int + insight reflexes the way to go now ? Without assassinate you are just squishy barbarian, the most impressive rogues I've seen, shadow manipulation+ assassinate everything.
    More skills, I guess enough dex for ISA ? Or you can't just get your assassinate high enough for new stuff ? 65+ possible, no ?
    But what do I know
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  6. #6
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Encair View Post
    Isn't int + insight reflexes the way to go now ? Without assassinate you are just squishy barbarian, the most impressive rogues I've seen, shadow manipulation+ assassinate everything.
    More skills, I guess enough dex for ISA ? Or you can't just get your assassinate high enough for new stuff ? 65+ possible, no ?
    But what do I know
    Y'know, I know one person who uses that line all the time... If you're that one person, I will get my Vorpal X greataxe of Killing IV out. (I'm sure it exists!)

    Aside from that, yeah, I agree: However, decent dps is still good to have for red named. (they do exist)

    Hence why I like dex -> damage. Saves a feat, means I can take ISA as well.

    *Note. Old enhancements had 70 max DC. Not sure about enhancement pass (in regards to enhancements), but we can get more int now through gear

    [Source: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...nt-based-build]
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  7. #7
    Community Member psykopeta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karl_k0ch View Post
    It's this time of the year again!

    With the upcoming enhancements, Rogues will be able to use Dex as a Damage stat for Daggers and Kukris. I'm trying to find out if this is actually a viable option for my rogue.

    If I am not mistaken, there are a few permanent buffs which favor Str over Dex, namely Abishai Set (where the other bonuses are largely uninteresting) and Nether Grasp (+2 Profane) but there are Titan's Grip Gloves (+6 Str) and Primal Scream (+5 Str). On the other hand, a Halfling Rogue can start with 20 Dex instead of 16 Str (+4), has access to racial enhancements (+1 or +2) as well as assassin and acrobat enhancements (+1 to +3). In total, it looks like the total Str bonus in this case is a +13; maybe +15 if you take a destiny with Str bonuses. On the other hand, the total Dex bonus is something between +6 and +9.

    It looks like Dex is offering a similar stat number when it comes to sustainable numbers, but less damage when it comes to burst dps. I conclude that Dex is viable if you are interested in good sustainable dps and don't value burst dps that highly.

    Thoughts?
    Dunno how have u calculated the mod in dex, but just tr'ed in a rogue halfling (well, right before the update XD) to do my 3rd rogue life(getting 3pl each, just waited at horcrobat for the enhancement pass so the assassin rogue was easier to roll, less gear dependant), and my numbers for total dex and int are:

    DEX: 18 + 4 tome + 2 ship + 6 item + 2 halfling + 4 lvl up = 36, so +13

    INT: 18 + 4 tome + 2 ship + 6 item + 4 cap + 4 enhancement= 38 so +14

    keep in mind no ED active, and items are +6 lol (my dc on assassinate will be 55 w/o twisting INT, and going shadowdancer, more than enough for EH)

    iirc my str w/o temporary buffs on live was not much higher than that dex (was horc btw), the trouble are tomprary buffs don't buff dex, only tenser and inspire excellence do

    also, need dex for twf line and improved SA (that's why i didn't want to do the assassin before, splitting in 4 stats would be harder for me to solo, would have to choose between high dc assassinate or dps on boss, this way can have both)

    PS: if u see i'm missing one lvl up it will go to con (qualify for epic toughness if u want, in my case is because my lvl 20 gear has 7+2 to con, so don't wanna have an odd score XD)
    psykopeta - hoarding pl, for the sake of hoarding, the day i become ubercompletionist will be because there isn't anything to delay it more - thelanis, where the gimps claim to be pros and noobs claim to be pros, no newbies allowed(unless they claim to be pros), we have enough drama w/o them. PS i'm not a pro, maybe if i reincarnate in RL...

  8. #8
    The Hatchery
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    Once I download the patch and log in, I'll be completely dumping STR on my Helf Rogue.

    Since you need 21 DEX anyway to qualify for Improved Sneak Attack, getting high STR will make your CON and INT points suffer. INT is, in my opinion, the single most important stat for a Rogue.

    Yes, if you have all buffs and such, you can get marginally higher STR, but I just don't think it's worth it.

  9. #9
    Hero AZgreentea's Avatar
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    I'm a little confused on the DEX vs STR issue with assassins. Dosent the description of Dagger in the back say that you apply your Dex for damage to all weapons if you have Weapon finesse? So any finess weapons would be Dex for hit and damage, right?

    Dagger in the Back: You may use Dex for damage with daggers and kukris. If you have weapon finesse, this applies to melee weapons with which you can use your dex modifier to hit.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZgreentea View Post
    I'm a little confused on the DEX vs STR issue with assassins. Dosent the description of Dagger in the back say that you apply your Dex for damage to all weapons if you have Weapon finesse? So any finess weapons would be Dex for hit and damage, right?
    Yes.

  11. #11

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    I rolled a 28 point Halfling rogue with 6 strength, 16 dex, 14 constitution, 18 int, 8 cha, 8 wis.

    Seems like if you took TWF feat at the start, weapon finesse at 3 you could be using dex for your dmg, and maybe build a int rogue for the assassinate etc.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebris-Niatellim View Post
    I rolled a 28 point Halfling rogue with 6 strength, 16 dex, 14 constitution, 18 int, 8 cha, 8 wis.

    Seems like if you took TWF feat at the start, weapon finesse at 3 you could be using dex for your dmg, and maybe build a int rogue for the assassinate etc.
    What I'd like to know is, did I read this thing right - if you deep-splash 6 ranger and take the Graceful Death enhancement, you could even skip Weapon Finesse altogether and still use dex with light weapons and scimitars? (Mostly the same list as Finesse weapons EXCEPT scimitars instead of rapiers?)

    (Hey, if I want to take the dragonmark and metamagics for it, I'll have to drop something to make room...)
    No longer completely f2p as of November 2014. Father of 3 more DDO players so far (I do have more children than that).

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by mna View Post
    What I'd like to know is, did I read this thing right - if you deep-splash 6 ranger and take the Graceful Death enhancement, you could even skip Weapon Finesse altogether and still use dex with light weapons and scimitars? (Mostly the same list as Finesse weapons EXCEPT scimitars instead of rapiers?)

    (Hey, if I want to take the dragonmark and metamagics for it, I'll have to drop something to make room...)
    lol I don't know if it works, that's why I'm just trying it out. I did learn from doing this that I like Halflings XD.

  14. #14

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    Or just use kukris...or daggers a skip Weapon Finesse.

    Also elven grace costs like 24 ap minmum to get. And that's only viable if your going elf. I don't think saving a feat is worth 24 ap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebris-Niatellim View Post
    Or just use kukris...or daggers a skip Weapon Finesse.

    Also elven grace costs like 24 ap minmum to get. And that's only viable if your going elf. I don't think saving a feat is worth 24 ap.
    Then again, Graceful Death is cheaper than that at a minimum of 11 ap, and also gets you other useful stuff - IF you have those 6 levels of ranger... well, then again, there would seem to be at least some synergy... not sure if it'll be workable but I've put some of my tentative planning here.
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  16. #16
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebris-Niatellim View Post
    Also elven grace costs like 24 ap minmum to get. And that's only viable if your going elf. I don't think saving a feat is worth 24 ap.
    It's not just about saving a feat; it's also about applying DEX to dmg with elf weapons (inc. bows, which will help DEX-based archers w/out Bow STR) as well as picking up Skill for +3% doublestrike/-shot/Dodge. Whether that's a cost-effective use for one's APs is another matter.

    I suspect Grace will be more useful to unusual DEX-based flavor builds (inc. some of my Bardchers if I can figure out what to do with them); not so much rogs & rgrs, who already have cheaper options for adding DEX to melee dmg.

  17. #17
    Community Member Stoner81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    [Source: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...nt-based-build]
    On another note, my lack forum-fu skills are showing... how can I change the link? (To say "This" or something aside from [Giant bunch of stuff]?)
    I'm fairly sure I should know it, and I would google it... but I don't know what I'm meant to be googling. D:
    Code:
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  18. #18
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoner81 View Post
    Code:
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    Stoner81.
    Thanks (Forgive me for the lack of originality)

  19. #19
    Community Member Stoner81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    Thanks (Forgive me for the lack of originality)
    LOL no worries just happy to help out when I can

    Anyway back to the topic in hand...

    I have a Halfling Rouge who is currently level 13 and I have been having a similar discussion in my own mind about this (yes I am that weird :P), the more and more I think about this it makes more and more sense to do INT based with enough in DEX to get ISA. Put all level ups in to INT and Insightful Reflexes to boost saves which are pretty much mandatory now in high end content, I currently use peshes but that could be swapped for Weapon Finesse easy enough and still keep all other feats pretty much. Result would be high Assassinate DC and good damage with daggers and short swords (Agony and Celestia I'm thinking of).

    Stoner81.

  20. #20
    Community Member WilliamBraveheart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karl_k0ch View Post
    It's this time of the year again!

    With the upcoming enhancements, Rogues will be able to use Dex as a Damage stat for Daggers and Kukris. I'm trying to find out if this is actually a viable option for my rogue.

    If I am not mistaken, there are a few permanent buffs which favor Str over Dex, namely Abishai Set (where the other bonuses are largely uninteresting) and Nether Grasp (+2 Profane) but there are Titan's Grip Gloves (+6 Str) and Primal Scream (+5 Str). On the other hand, a Halfling Rogue can start with 20 Dex instead of 16 Str (+4), has access to racial enhancements (+1 or +2) as well as assassin and acrobat enhancements (+1 to +3). In total, it looks like the total Str bonus in this case is a +13; maybe +15 if you take a destiny with Str bonuses. On the other hand, the total Dex bonus is something between +6 and +9.

    It looks like Dex is offering a similar stat number when it comes to sustainable numbers, but less damage when it comes to burst dps. I conclude that Dex is viable if you are interested in good sustainable dps and don't value burst dps that highly.

    Thoughts?
    Take weapon finesse feat and you can get dex to hit and damage with all light weapons i.e rapiers,Short swords


    Lookin for sumthin to kill!!

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