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Thread: Melee Sorcerer

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    Better question: Why would you use Melf acid, scorching ray, wall of fire, acid rain, black dragon bolt or burning blood? They all suck. At least acid fog gives 20% concealment.
    what sucks about them? they have large damage over time stacked together

  2. #62
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exiledtyrant View Post
    why would you need DCs as a melee sorc? Melfs acid, scorching ray, wall of fire, acid rain, acid fog, black dragon bolt, burning blood.
    Quote Originally Posted by Exiledtyrant View Post
    what sucks about them? they have large damage over time stacked together
    The only time would be if you went Air Savant for the Wings/FF toggle, which are arguably the only useful non-spellpower enhancements in any of the Sorc trees worth taking on a Melee Sorc. The problem, like I stated is that almost all of the Air/Electric spells come with a reflex save, and you'd still have to spend a number of points in the Ice Savant tree for the boost to your Dot/Icestorm to make them worthwhile.

    And while playing a melee based Sorc, those spells don't have the same effect they do on a casting sorc. Most of them become entirely useless in fact. The way you end up playing is throwing Icestorm/a cloud spell and cleave+Great Cleave mobs who are slowed in the Icestorm. You only use Dots/other nosave spells against bosses, extremely high HP mobs, or when pulling mobs. Doing anything else wastes SP, and isn't time effective.

    In most cases the time it would take you to stop Cleaving and cast a spell you've already lost DPS that the spells won't cover.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exiledtyrant View Post
    what sucks about them? they have large damage over time stacked together
    As a melee, unless you also have normal casting spellpower, they will all hit low.
    Black dragon bolt just sucks. Even for casters.
    Ditto on melfs. Too slow.
    Scorching ray is great... if you meta it and run around as a caster. Wouldn't want to use it without that, you'd have more damage meleeing.
    Wall of fire/acid rain - low damage, mobs will save. Only works great as a caster.

    Honestly, TheLegendOfAra said it right.

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    in an 8 second time span acid rain gives does 60-240 at 15 sp damage while ice storm does at 25sp 72-136. Even with it's longer duration I would bet acid outshines ice storm and be more cost efficient in the long run.

    After spending 60 sp and using 3 cooldowns + the cooldown time it would take under tenser's you can get niacs biting cold up to 63-78 or you could spend 15 sp and get 25-75 from black dragon bolt looks more cost efficient to me same deal with electric surge.

    within an 8 second window under tenser's using freeze orb you would match acid rains damage at 35 more sp cost and more cooldowns used.

    For 15 sp you can do 60-180 damage with burning blood per tick. I haven't seen a single dot that high.

    the only spell I listed that may fall behind was scorching ray 48-72 vs frost lance 72 -120 and not by much. Then there is again the lower cost to consider and the potential 20-60 fire dot that only loses 1 stack every 6 seconds. Every time scorching ray deals damage it gains a die while frozen lance stays the same.

    To me acid and fire look very efficient, they work in tandem to improve a very strong burning blood dot, and they seem to be more cost efficient or have higher damage potential. I'm just not seeing it.

    Losing dps from casting dots also puzzles me. You have 6-12 seconds between casts and minutes between longer duration aoes. That gives you ample time to weave in a 4 attack sequence and +attack die moves. The only time that wouldn't be true would be when stacking fire dots with scorching as you would only have about 4 seconds between casts.

    Of course you won't have the damage of a normal caster spell for spell since this is a hybrid. You only miss out on spell implement and meta magics however. That should still leave up to 75% of the spell power up for grab.
    Last edited by Exiledtyrant; 09-18-2013 at 04:31 AM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exiledtyrant View Post
    in an 8 second time span acid rain gives does 60-240 at 15 sp damage while ice storm does at 25sp 72-136. Even with it's longer duration I would bet acid outshines ice storm and be more cost efficient in the long run.

    After spending 60 sp and using 3 cooldowns + the cooldown time it would take under tenser's you can get niacs biting cold up to 63-78 or you could spend 15 sp and get 25-75 from black dragon bolt looks more cost efficient to me same deal with electric surge.

    within an 8 second window under tenser's using freeze orb you would match acid rains damage at 35 more sp cost and more cooldowns used.

    For 15 sp you can do 60-180 damage with burning blood per tick. I haven't seen a single dot that high.

    the only spell I listed that may fall behind was scorching ray 48-72 vs frost lance 72 -120 and not by much. Then there is again the lower cost to consider and the potential 20-60 fire dot that only loses 1 stack every 6 seconds. Every time scorching ray deals damage it gains a die while frozen lance stays the same.

    To me acid and fire look very efficient, they work in tandem to improve a very strong burning blood dot, and they seem to be more cost efficient or have higher damage potential. I'm just not seeing it.

    Losing dps from casting dots also puzzles me. You have 6-12 seconds between casts and minutes between longer duration aoes. That gives you ample time to weave in a 4 attack sequence and +attack die moves. The only time that wouldn't be true would be when stacking fire dots with scorching as you would only have about 4 seconds between casts.

    Of course you won't have the damage of a normal caster spell for spell since this is a hybrid. You only miss out on spell implement and meta magics however. That should still leave up to 75% of the spell power up for grab.
    Most of spell dmg is metas.
    I'm sorry, you just don't see it, nor can I be bothered explaining it.

    Just trust me. The DoTs aren't worth it without proper caster investment. You'll find once you're geared, that your melee will laugh all over your DoTs, because you are not a caster.
    Pick one or the other. A hybrid will be sub-par at both. (I'm all for flavour, but.. I build for endgame, so I make sacrifices. Hence I'd give up on DoTing)

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    It will just have to be something I have to see to believe then. Even doing something as simple as giving up power attack for maximize would decrease the total potential spell power gap a pure sorc has over a splashed sorc who invest in atleast 4 cores by 38-50%. The 3 things I see a spell caster getting over a melee caster is the empower, maxmize, and spell implement everything else including 1 meta is on the table.

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Exiledtyrant View Post
    the only spell I listed that may fall behind was scorching ray 48-72 vs frost lance 72 -120 and not by much. Then there is again the lower cost to consider and the potential 20-60 fire dot that only loses 1 stack every 6 seconds. Every time scorching ray deals damage it gains a die while frozen lance stays the same.
    For melee arcane who also throws a few damage spells, scorching ray is miles above frost lance because frost lance gives a fort save and mobs will no-fail save against it except on a natural 1. So cut all frost lance damage in half. Scorching Ray has no save.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Exiledtyrant View Post
    in an 8 second time span acid rain gives does 60-240 at 15 sp damage while ice storm does at 25sp 72-136. Even with it's longer duration I would bet acid outshines ice storm and be more cost efficient in the long run.

    After spending 60 sp and using 3 cooldowns + the cooldown time it would take under tenser's you can get niacs biting cold up to 63-78 or you could spend 15 sp and get 25-75 from black dragon bolt looks more cost efficient to me same deal with electric surge.

    within an 8 second window under tenser's using freeze orb you would match acid rains damage at 35 more sp cost and more cooldowns used.

    For 15 sp you can do 60-180 damage with burning blood per tick. I haven't seen a single dot that high.

    the only spell I listed that may fall behind was scorching ray 48-72 vs frost lance 72 -120 and not by much. Then there is again the lower cost to consider and the potential 20-60 fire dot that only loses 1 stack every 6 seconds. Every time scorching ray deals damage it gains a die while frozen lance stays the same.

    To me acid and fire look very efficient, they work in tandem to improve a very strong burning blood dot, and they seem to be more cost efficient or have higher damage potential. I'm just not seeing it.

    Losing dps from casting dots also puzzles me. You have 6-12 seconds between casts and minutes between longer duration aoes. That gives you ample time to weave in a 4 attack sequence and +attack die moves. The only time that wouldn't be true would be when stacking fire dots with scorching as you would only have about 4 seconds between casts.

    Of course you won't have the damage of a normal caster spell for spell since this is a hybrid. You only miss out on spell implement and meta magics however. That should still leave up to 75% of the spell power up for grab.
    What you're describing is not a Melee Sorc, it's a Sorc who has some melee potential in Heroics once they've run out of SP. Which isn't a bad idea, but it's nowhere near as effective as a melee is what I'm trying to say. What I mean by melee Sorc is a toon that uses it's spell points mostly for self buffs, and a few nosave spells/Nosave AOE's.

    What this means is you walk into a room and cast Icestorm/Acid Fog(Anything with a concealment effect really. Can't remember which acid cloud does.) and all the melee mobs get into the icestorm; The spell damage isn't what you're looking for most, it's just bonus. What you're looking for is the Slowing effects Icestorm has, as well as the concealment from your cloud spell. This makes mobs 50% slower when moving and have a 20% miss chance on you. You then circle strafe around the icestorm instead of going into the center, spamming cleaves and regular attacks. It's the most effective way to play as a melee Sorc using a THF weapon. All your spells really do(damage wise) is soften the mobs up that you haven't gotten to with your cleave yet, so that by the time you kill one mob, and move on to the next it's already half dead.

    Spending a ton of SP for shorter duration spells just isn't as effective in actual play. You waste too much SP meant for buffing your melee.


    Quote Originally Posted by Exiledtyrant View Post
    It will just have to be something I have to see to believe then. Even doing something as simple as giving up power attack for maximize would decrease the total potential spell power gap a pure sorc has over a splashed sorc who invest in atleast 4 cores by 38-50%. The 3 things I see a spell caster getting over a melee caster is the empower, maxmize, and spell implement everything else including 1 meta is on the table.
    You don't want to give up power attack on a melee at all. I can't see why you would.
    Your feat list should look something like this(Off the top of my head, based on my own 16/2/2 split)
    Power Attack
    Cleave
    GreatCleave
    Dodge
    Maximize
    Empower
    Extend
    Two Handed Fighting
    Improved Two Handed Fighting
    Greater Two Handed Fighting
    Improved Critical: Slashing
    Overwhelming Critical
    Whatever other epic feats you want. Could work for Epic toughness.

    You run with Haste/rage/Tensers/Displacement all extended, the rest without.
    All damage spells are max'd and Empowered.

    If you don't do at least this you're better off not making a "Melee Sorc"(My version) because nothing you do will be good enough. Your melee damage will be so far behind a real melee you'll end up taking ages to kill even a single mob, and your spells will be such low DPS a melee toon with UMD could scroll damage spells to the same effect.
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  9. #69
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    For melee arcane who also throws a few damage spells, scorching ray is miles above frost lance because frost lance gives a fort save and mobs will no-fail save against it except on a natural 1. So cut all frost lance damage in half. Scorching Ray has no save.
    While this is true, it's pointless to consider.

    Most if not all of the other firespells are not worth taking on a melee sorc, and the fire Dot is just bad.

    Besides if you take Scorching Ray, you want to build up your fire spell power, this means you have to put points into the Fire Savant tree, which automatically locks you out of putting any points into the Ice Savant tree(as I understand it) So you lose Niac's Biting Cold. This is not a good trade off, and it also throws your spell selections out of whack, which is something you have to consider on a melee Hybrid. Sorcs don't get that many spells to begin with, splashing takes even more of those spells away.
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    Quote Originally Posted by psykopeta View Post
    pure sorc = trash food in EE, poor saves, no reflex, no defensive feats (dodge, mobility, deflect arrows, dunno if there are more)
    You could not be farther from the truth on that. Maybe you can't survive as pure sorc but I can and I know a few others that can. And that is even being human.

    And you can get relfex into the forties as well if you gear for it. Besides my saves have never been a problem because you can stun with electric loop and kill one at a tiime or even dance them. Many ways to handle stuff in EE as a pure and the damage is insane although they have been nerfing sorcs with every update.

    Quote Originally Posted by psykopeta View Post
    and since EE saves(from mobs and needed for players) are quite insane, that means u're almost forced to use spells w/o save which are polar ray(stronger with a pure sorc water savant? prolly) and rest are dots and aoe, dots and aoe that benefit more of shiradi than draconic suckcarnation, u know with 1 proc 1 are over the damage u would do with draconic
    I don't have trouble with saves unless you mean instakills, then yea it is tough but even for a pure pm. I can land all my spells most of the time on all EE except, the only one I can think of off the top of my head, Cabal. The end boss has ridiculous relfex saves and only thing I can land is my dots. Besides him don't have any trouble being an air sorc. But I put a lot of time and effort into my sorc and know as a first lifer air sorc you will definitely have trouble and I would not advise anyone be an air sorc as a first lifer unless you just going to 20 and TR'ing.
    Last edited by Da_Most_Shady; 09-18-2013 at 01:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    While this is true, it's pointless to consider.

    Most if not all of the other firespells are not worth taking on a melee sorc, and the fire Dot is just bad.

    Besides if you take Scorching Ray, you want to build up your fire spell power, this means you have to put points into the Fire Savant tree, which automatically locks you out of putting any points into the Ice Savant tree(as I understand it) So you lose Niac's Biting Cold. This is not a good trade off, and it also throws your spell selections out of whack, which is something you have to consider on a melee Hybrid. Sorcs don't get that many spells to begin with, splashing takes even more of those spells away.

    you couldn't beat burning blood with niacs biting and eletric surge combined not in damage and not in time taken to apply damage and that's acid/fire. Black dragon bolt is more cost effective than both with basically the same top end and more damage applied in less time. Scorching ray , fire wall, and burning blood make up an ample amount of fire damage especially in prolonged fight where they can stack a 20-120 damage fire dot ( I calced wrong in the last post it's 20d6 not 20d3 at full stacks) that like all other dots can crit. That's a dot with higher top end than niacs or surge in about 40 seconds build up time in tensers vs niacs/surge 60 second build up time in tensers.

    Maybe your build just conflicts with mine as my current focus is a TWF build. Cleaves would net an actual dps loss for me so I have more feats. I also believe sacrificing 10 damage to have the option to boost spells by 150% is worth it. I'm going to leave it at that I look to make around a 60/40 magic melee split for damage which I have been so far and you do more of a aoe debuff enhancement build it looks like that favors melee over magic. Me personally I have found magic damage to be excessive and can't see how melee damage ever pulls ahead. Why stacking spells with base damage as high as 60-180, 60-240 etc before any type of buffs would be a dps loss when you can melee in between.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exiledtyrant View Post
    you couldn't beat burning blood with niacs biting and eletric surge combined not in damage and not in time taken to apply damage and that's acid/fire. Black dragon bolt is more cost effective than both with basically the same top end and more damage applied in less time. Scorching ray , fire wall, and burning blood make up an ample amount of fire damage especially in prolonged fight where they can stack a 20-120 damage fire dot ( I calced wrong in the last post it's 20d6 not 20d3 at full stacks) that like all other dots can crit. That's a dot with higher top end than niacs or surge in about 40 seconds build up time in tensers vs niacs/surge 60 second build up time in tensers.

    Maybe your build just conflicts with mine as my current focus is a TWF build. Cleaves would net an actual dps loss for me so I have more feats. I also believe sacrificing 10 damage to have the option to boost spells by 150% is worth it. I'm going to leave it at that I look to make around a 60/40 magic melee split for damage which I have been so far and you do more of a aoe debuff enhancement build it looks like that favors melee over magic. Me personally I have found magic damage to be excessive and can't see how melee damage ever pulls ahead. Why stacking spells with base damage as high as 60-180, 60-240 etc before any type of buffs would be a dps loss when you can melee in between.
    You can beat them, because in the 15-22 Range most mobs are immune to fire damage completely and somewhat resistant to acid damage. After that, sure Fire works, but it's been proven 100 times on the forums, and in game that Air/Ice is higher DPS, and better all around that Fire/Acid. Both work, but one is clearly better than the other.

    And I'm sure that they are conflicting. I made mine to max melee DPS, which meant going THF. THF is better than TWF in the current game, especially on builds that are looking for raw melee DPS. TWF only favors toons who are looking to maximize weapon procs for both main hand and off hand attacks, and builds with a lot of sneak attack.

    And melee does pull ahead, but you have to build for it. Once you hit 16+ you will notice that if you don't focus on melee or on spell damage you're going to fall behind anyone else that has a clear build focus. And a 60/40 split like you say you're going for is better off just being a caster with the ability to melee once you're out of SP. I'm speaking from experience here that if you don't fully focus on melee, spell damage pulls so far ahead and then you might as well just be a pure Sorc.

    Also, how do cleaves = a net loss in DPS? Even with my sorc when she was a TWF Khopesh build Cleaves where a must. The only time they lost me DPS was when I would use Haste Boost III+Damage Boost III. If you're not boosting then how are you loosing DPS from cleaves? Are you factoring the AOE DPS from Cleaves?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exiledtyrant View Post
    It will just have to be something I have to see to believe then. Even doing something as simple as giving up power attack for maximize would decrease the total potential spell power gap a pure sorc has over a splashed sorc who invest in atleast 4 cores by 38-50%. The 3 things I see a spell caster getting over a melee caster is the empower, maxmize, and spell implement everything else including 1 meta is on the table.
    Why can't you get maximize and empower in the build? It's worth it. At least maximize.

    Power attack, cleave, great cleave, improved crit. That leaves 3 feats pretty much up to your discretion. If you're a human, it would be 4. If you're fleshy, you don't need quicken, that's just for heals.

    The nice thing about melee arcanes is you don't have to kill everything with sp. So it's not that hard to budget out. Extend is a good feat, it will save you sp in the long run.

    My guy is a warforged, 2 pally/2 monk/ rest sorc. He's only level 14, but at this point he is pretty unkillable. I thought about it, but have taken 0 enhancements from either pally or monk. Lots from warforged, the rest from earth savant.

    Have you considered cloudkill? I personally don't know why people like acid rain. I may be biased though, i dislike concealment spells that actually obscure my vision. Cloudkill does more damage, even if you don't count the con damage.

    I also disagree with soulfurnace about being either full ****** melee or caster. Hybrid seems to be the whole point of the build. Of course i'm not planning to play epic elite with this build, it will get tr'd shortly after 20.
    In heroic elite, hybrid certainly works a lot better than gimping my casting to max melee dps. At least for me.

    Yes, acid rain will tear stuff up. I prefer it to ice storm. Much more concentrated damage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    Why can't you get maximize and empower in the build? It's worth it. At least maximize.

    Power attack, cleave, great cleave, improved crit. That leaves 3 feats pretty much up to your discretion. If you're a human, it would be 4. If you're fleshy, you don't need quicken, that's just for heals.

    The nice thing about melee arcanes is you don't have to kill everything with sp. So it's not that hard to budget out. Extend is a good feat, it will save you sp in the long run.

    My guy is a warforged, 2 pally/2 monk/ rest sorc. He's only level 14, but at this point he is pretty unkillable. I thought about it, but have taken 0 enhancements from either pally or monk. Lots from warforged, the rest from earth savant.

    Have you considered cloudkill? I personally don't know why people like acid rain. I may be biased though, i dislike concealment spells that actually obscure my vision. Cloudkill does more damage, even if you don't count the con damage.

    I also disagree with soulfurnace about being either full ****** melee or caster. Hybrid seems to be the whole point of the build. Of course i'm not planning to play epic elite with this build, it will get tr'd shortly after 20.
    In heroic elite, hybrid certainly works a lot better than gimping my casting to max melee dps. At least for me.

    Yes, acid rain will tear stuff up. I prefer it to ice storm. Much more concentrated damage.
    If you want hybrid I do think earth is best for f2s as it heightens well. Then again, there may be other gems in the new trees ... I should check.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    You can beat them, because in the 15-22 Range most mobs are immune to fire damage completely and somewhat resistant to acid damage. After that, sure Fire works, but it's been proven 100 times on the forums, and in game that Air/Ice is higher DPS, and better all around that Fire/Acid. Both work, but one is clearly better than the other.

    And I'm sure that they are conflicting. I made mine to max melee DPS, which meant going THF. THF is better than TWF in the current game, especially on builds that are looking for raw melee DPS. TWF only favors toons who are looking to maximize weapon procs for both main hand and off hand attacks, and builds with a lot of sneak attack.

    And melee does pull ahead, but you have to build for it. Once you hit 16+ you will notice that if you don't focus on melee or on spell damage you're going to fall behind anyone else that has a clear build focus. And a 60/40 split like you say you're going for is better off just being a caster with the ability to melee once you're out of SP. I'm speaking from experience here that if you don't fully focus on melee, spell damage pulls so far ahead and then you might as well just be a pure Sorc.

    Also, how do cleaves = a net loss in DPS? Even with my sorc when she was a TWF Khopesh build Cleaves where a must. The only time they lost me DPS was when I would use Haste Boost III+Damage Boost III. If you're not boosting then how are you loosing DPS from cleaves? Are you factoring the AOE DPS from Cleaves?

    Cleaves don't use both weapons You use an attack at +1 die and you get the same as you would from just meleeing except you do the attack slower and you miss out on any offhand procs. You do the attack at +2 die and you do 1 die extra but you do the attack slower and you lose out on off hand attacks. If cleave was 3 attack die or more I could see it not being a loss just like how bleed them out is not a loss because 3[w] +1 = 4 die which is going to beat any two weapon scenario by 2 x damage.


    Dropping empower and extend is mostly due to AP constraints and not being able to reduce them. Dropping my mental toughness feats would drop me from 1790 sp to 1580. I have been comfortable at around 1500 so the extra may no be needed although meta magics cost would have to be considered. Maximize on the other hand proves easy to fit in and isa large chunk of the actual spell power gap between melee and pure caster.

    Cloud kill is interesting although all of it's damage can be halved by constant flex saves and bosses or anything with poison immunity negates it. It still wind sup doing as much damage as acid fog though on reflex although it can not be meta magiced for damage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Da_Most_Shady View Post
    You could not be farther from the truth on that. Maybe you can't survive as pure sorc but I can and I know a few others that can. And that is even being human.

    And you can get relfex into the forties as well if you gear for it. Besides my saves have never been a problem because you can stun with electric loop and kill one at a tiime or even dance them. Many ways to handle stuff in EE as a pure and the damage is insane although they have been nerfing sorcs with every update.
    Reflex of 40.
    I don't even know why you'd gear for 40 reflex... that's just not going to work. o.O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    Reflex of 40.
    I don't even know why you'd gear for 40 reflex... that's just not going to work. o.O
    I guess you did not read the other part that said I never had a problem with my saves. o.O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Da_Most_Shady View Post
    I guess you did not read the other part that said I never had a problem with my saves. o.O
    If you have no issues, than gearing for 40 reflex is again irrelevant ^^

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    If you have no issues, than gearing for 40 reflex is again irrelevant ^^
    If you could read you would notice I was just saying what a sorc can reach in saves. ^^

    And I never said 40. I said 40s. But I know reading is hard. o.0
    Last edited by Da_Most_Shady; 09-18-2013 at 08:09 PM.

  20. #80
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Da_Most_Shady View Post
    If you could read you would notice I was just saying what a sorc can reach in saves. ^^

    And I never said 40. I said 40s. But I know reading is hard. o.0
    Yeah, reading is pretty hard, as is comprehending.
    A sorc can 40's, let's say 49. That's still as useless as 10 reflex as far as EE is concerned
    Better off saving the gear.
    Or, of course, splashing paladin and hitting 69 reflex. Always fun.

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