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Thread: Melee Sorcerer

  1. #41
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    Look, I get you're good at a caster Sorc, I've seen you in action and you're good. But since you've clearly never tried a melee sorc, and there are very few of them on Argo any more, you obviously don't have the experience to draw the conclusion that Melee Sorcs are just bad. I could make a WF Sorc version of the Juggernaught and it would do almost the same DPS, and have almost the same survivability, the biggest difference would be weapon buffs, which would easily be overshadowed by Dots.
    Uh no, the difference would be lack of feats, far worse saves, weak or non-existent ranged burst DPS, no trapping ability, no relevant PrE, and then... at the end of that list, no weapon buffs. The difference is massive, and no, dots don't mean jack.

    Go ahead and play melee sorc if you like, but let's not kid around, it's just not a good build.

  2. #42
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    Uh no, the difference would be lack of feats, far worse saves, weak or non-existent ranged burst DPS, no trapping ability, no relevant PrE, and then... at the end of that list, no weapon buffs. The difference is massive, and no, dots don't mean jack.

    Go ahead and play melee sorc if you like, but let's not kid around, it's just not a good build.
    Can get most the same feats. Saves would be as good if you splashed Paladin, which is also an option for Juggs. You're somewhat right about the lack of burst ranged DPS, you could have a constant ranged DPS through spells. a 16/2/2 pali/monk split lends itself really well to Shiradi Casting if you need ranged DPS. The difference is not massive, it's medium at best.

    You're right, let's not kid around, it's just not the BEST build.

    I'm so sick of people on these forums with the attitude of "If it's not the best, it's not good at all." It's so absurd, and really kills creativity.
    I've seen Melee Sorcs in action in EE's and they did just fine.
    Araphina Skycrow - 15Paladin/3Ranger/2Fighter (Life 8/25) 5xRanger, 3xPaladin
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    Look, I get you're good at a caster Sorc, I've seen you in action and you're good. But since you've clearly never tried a melee sorc, and there are very few of them on Argo any more, you obviously don't have the experience to draw the conclusion that Melee Sorcs are just bad.
    Thanks for the compliment but I guess I am a bit bias after all. I have never seen a good melee sorc and in fact, most of the good sorcs I have played with are all pure. Nothing beats pure sorc for damage. I guess you can make it work but just seems wrong to gimp a class just to be different.

  4. #44
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Da_Most_Shady View Post
    Thanks for the compliment but I guess I am a bit bias after all. I have never seen a good melee sorc and in fact, most of the good sorcs I have played with are all pure. Nothing beats pure sorc for damage. I guess you can make it work but just seems wrong to gimp a class just to be different.
    You're most welcome.

    I know of a couple who were EE ready and capable, but they left the game after U19. No big surprise there. Lol
    I agree 100%, Pure sorcs are amazingly powerful and effective when played by a competent player. I just can't do it. Lol
    I hate playing casters, as casters. I just get bored with them. Playing a Ranger for so many years has spoiled me.

    I'd never postulate that some melee sorc hybrid could ever truly match a pure sorc for casting damage, or effectiveness. Or even that they could truly match a melee Class at melee. That would be ignorant and downright stupid, but they can be fun, and they can contribute.

    Now, if we were having this conversation back in say '11, I would have been right there with you saying melee casters could never work, but the game has changed a lot, and destinies offer so much power now that if you have the right twists and have the basics for your class split, almost anything can be powerful enough for most EE's. At least, as long as you're playing smart.
    Araphina Skycrow - 15Paladin/3Ranger/2Fighter (Life 8/25) 5xRanger, 3xPaladin
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  5. #45
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    1. Way less [W] Damage than a pure Monk, or a split with at least 12 monk levels.(Forget the actual term for monks [W] damage. lol)
    2. No stunning fist. Or if you take stunning fist and max wis to get a workable DC, it means you've let your int slack off, so less SP for buffs/no save damage spells.
    3. Saves will not be as high as a Monks. Insightful helps this but along with #2, if you dump Int for a max Wis and stunning Fist you loose that benefit.
    1) Valid. Thank you for pointing that out, not many people think to mention that (Although, it's all of 2[W], or 2d6. I scoff at such an amount :P

    2) It has Stunning Fist, 68 DC with easy to get items and a decent wisdom. (could get another 6 wisdom from gear/levels, one more from enhancements, 8 more from destinies inc twists, 3 DC from GMoF, completionist and *3 fighter PL.) Less sp than int based, yep! But I have enough with E. Mental toughness.

    3) True, my saves are a tad lower. Compared to my "normal" monk builds, I'll miss 4 reflex, 4 fort. Can't claim anything in regards to that. Except tensers/rage, but those are scrollable. (just annoying to scroll every minute)

  6. #46
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    1) Valid. Thank you for pointing that out, not many people think to mention that (Although, it's all of 2[W], or 2d6. I scoff at such an amount :P

    2) It has Stunning Fist, 68 DC with easy to get items and a decent wisdom. (could get another 6 wisdom from gear/levels, one more from enhancements, 8 more from destinies inc twists, 3 DC from GMoF, completionist and *3 fighter PL.) Less sp than int based, yep! But I have enough with E. Mental toughness.

    3) True, my saves are a tad lower. Compared to my "normal" monk builds, I'll miss 4 reflex, 4 fort. Can't claim anything in regards to that. Except tensers/rage, but those are scrollable. (just annoying to scroll every minute)
    Heh Np. I know it was one ofthe things that pushed me more towards a TWF Melee Wizard than an unarmed lich build back when I was interested in melee wizards. Though, that was before ED's so that 2d6 was actually quite a bit of difference in DPS back then.

    And very nice. Better DC than I would have thought you could reach.

    Agreed.

    As I said, melee arcane builds are fun, and work well. Sometimes the differences can be insignificant, other times not so much. Didn't really want to say your build wasn't good or was inferior or anything of the sort. It's just... You did ask for someone to name 3 reasons... Lol
    Araphina Skycrow - 15Paladin/3Ranger/2Fighter (Life 8/25) 5xRanger, 3xPaladin
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  7. #47
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    And very nice. Better DC than I would have thought you could reach.

    As I said, melee arcane builds are fun, and work well. Sometimes the differences can be insignificant, other times not so much. Didn't really want to say your build wasn't good or was inferior or anything of the sort. It's just... You did ask for someone to name 3 reasons... Lol
    Breakdown over here. I went for overwhelming crit (and E. Toughness), which cost me 2 DC. So, in 3 lives time, we'll see how saves stand in whatever endgame we have. But seriously, it's a flavour build (that's viable, ish)... how could I turn down OC?!

    Yes, I did ask for three points. I was hoping the anti-melee would give me three though, not someone who was wise in their ways of gimpness! (Because gimp builds are fun. :3)

  8. #48
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    to the op:

    You clearly seem to know what you're doing, not some "lv 2 fighter who gets hurt and decides to go clr for heals only to switch to sorc because dps is better first life first toon type"

    I take back any reservations i posted and wouldn't mind playing with such a build in the party.
    Not to troll but to see first hand how it works in a party.

  9. #49
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lyrecono View Post
    I take back any reservations i posted and wouldn't mind playing with such a build in the party.
    What sort of sorc would you prefer? I'll add it to the to-do list. (Right after *3 fighter life.)
    Options: THF (min II greataxe), TWF (Deathnips, because I like the look of them :3), Unarmed or archer? (Mix of DWS, AA and THF while bow is impractical.)

  10. #50
    Community Member lyrecono's Avatar
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    pick one,

    a party member should add something to the party, whether it be competend gameplay or lolz over the voice chat (i once played with a roleplaying bard, all he did was buff at the start and crack jokes over voice chat during the rest of the quest, picking at the entrance unless the objective was to pull switches/ gather at 1 point.

  11. #51
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lyrecono View Post
    pick one,

    a party member should add something to the party, whether it be competend gameplay or lolz over the voice chat (i once played with a roleplaying bard, all he did was buff at the start and crack jokes over voice chat during the rest of the quest, picking at the entrance unless the objective was to pull switches/ gather at 1 point.
    Not fussed with any.
    THF will have most overall dps, AoE cleaves (fireball is overrated), TWF will.. be annoying. We'll forget that, too much effort. Unarmed.. well. I'm doing that as a wizard now.

  12. #52
    Community Member Enguebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoerm View Post
    BTA means bound to account. Some quests drop bound to account random lootgen items that are useful for Cannith crafting. The Shard Syndicate chain is one place to get them, Chronoscope end rewards is another. Unfortunately trinkets are always BTC. To my best knowledge the only way to craft a BTA trinket is to buy one from the store. I don't have the game open but it looks like this and is listed in DDOwiki as "Customizable Trinket" for 150 TP.
    You can find a craftable trinket in chests. It is a very very rare item, but i have found one a few weeks ago. Don't remember if it is BtA or BtC (haven't used it yet)
    It is like heart of wood or jewel of fortune : you can find them in chests, but it is very very rare
    Otherwise, yes, you can always use shroud shard

  13. #53
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    Breakdown over here. I went for overwhelming crit (and E. Toughness), which cost me 2 DC. So, in 3 lives time, we'll see how saves stand in whatever endgame we have. But seriously, it's a flavour build (that's viable, ish)... how could I turn down OC?!

    Yes, I did ask for three points. I was hoping the anti-melee would give me three though, not someone who was wise in their ways of gimpness! (Because gimp builds are fun. :3)
    Oh, thanks for that. Might rethink my Wiz lifes now. I was originally planning on a THF/Manyshot Wraith build 12Wiz/6Ranger/2Monk using Sireth/Pinion and staying centered. However, if you can get a working stunningFist DC that may change things a bit.


    Lmao My gimpness knows no bounds!
    Araphina Skycrow - 15Paladin/3Ranger/2Fighter (Life 8/25) 5xRanger, 3xPaladin
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  14. #54
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    Oh, thanks for that. Might rethink my Wiz lifes now. I was originally planning on a THF/Manyshot Wraith build 12Wiz/6Ranger/2Monk using Sireth/Pinion and staying centered. However, if you can get a working stunningFist DC that may change things a bit.


    Lmao My gimpness knows no bounds!
    Gotta go dwarf/fighter for my stunning fist DC though... which sucks.
    Although, you could get 10k stars as well. Take your gimpness to new bounds!

  15. #55
    Community Member Sianys's Avatar
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    Lol, the arguments in this thread has been tempting me to create a Dwarf Earth Savant sorc, just for the nanny-nanny-boo-boo of it.
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  16. #56
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sianys View Post
    Lol, the arguments in this thread has been tempting me to create a Dwarf Earth Savant sorc, just for the nanny-nanny-boo-boo of it.
    Do it. Your gimpiness will amaze and terrify everyone.

  17. #57
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    What's been playing on my mind as far as my melee sorc goes is which savant tree to go for based on end game usefulness.

    Originally I had though Earth Savant for Earthgrab. My thought was it would sort of work and a ranged stun, since I'd never get a workable stunningfit/blow DC for EE's. But the mod for Earthgrab is Class level+Con mod, which doesn't fit will in a non pure sorc build, and the con modifier is pretty harsh as well on a build that has to keep Str/Cha/Con/Dex all at decent levels.

    Then the next obvious choice was Air savant, mainly for the Wings and FF toggle. But you then run into the problem that almost all air spells come with a reflex save, and EE mobs seem to have reflex saves in the non-fail area if you don't have max Evo DC's. This means you would have to stack a number of past lives, as well as slot Evocation gear into your setup; annoying enough on a pure caster, nearly impossible on a melee setup. (Or at least this was the case before U19 as I understood it anyways.)

    The only thing worthy of note in the Fire Savant tree was the +1 Str Enhancement to even out my Str. Fire being what it is, and my Dislike for most fire spells I'm just disregarding this one all together.

    Which leaves Ice Savant. This offers the most no save spells, the highest single target DPS, and from the spell perspective it makes the most sense. The problem lies in that other than boosting your Ice Spellpower this tree offers nothing worthwhile. Icy Prison would be nifty, but for the same reasons Earthgrab wouldn't work it's also out of the picture.

    It seems like on a melee sorc, other than you boost your chosen elements spellpower(most likely Ice or Air)all of your AP will be spent in your Racial/melee class trees.

    The only other option I have found would be to go force spec'd spell-wise in the Air Savant tree for wings. But this would mean you could only run EN/EH; For the life of me I can't seem to see force spell power anywhere in any of the trees. Am I blind or did they just get rid of this all together?
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  18. #58
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    why would you need DCs as a melee sorc? Melfs acid, scorching ray, wall of fire, acid rain, acid fog, black dragon bolt, burning blood. A Plethora of spells that all stack and all scale. Only wall and acid rain have a reflex save and that's only on the first tick. Earth and fire go well together especially when double dipping procs from burning blood. Fires 20 stack dot doesn't have a save either. Earth grab seems like a waste to grab even if you get 6 extra con from buffs and 2 extra from the earth tree.

    25 earth/25 fire grabs all the important things in the tree if you skip out on meta magic and I can't see how you couldn't with the amount of SP melee buffs consume. That leaves you with 30 points to splash anywhere. or 32 18 if you want the 2 immunities but your going to be lacking on defensive stats.

  19. #59
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exiledtyrant View Post
    why would you need DCs as a melee sorc? Melfs acid, scorching ray, wall of fire, acid rain, acid fog, black dragon bolt, burning blood. A Plethora of spells that all stack and all scale. Only wall and acid rain have a reflex save and that's only on the first tick. Earth and fire go well together especially when double dipping procs from burning blood. Fires 20 stack dot doesn't have a save either. Earth grab seems like a waste to grab even if you get 6 extra con from buffs and 2 extra from the earth tree.

    25 earth/25 fire grabs all the important things in the tree if you skip out on meta magic and I can't see how you couldn't with the amount of SP melee buffs consume. That leaves you with 30 points to splash anywhere. or 32 18 if you want the 2 immunities but your going to be lacking on defensive stats.
    Better question: Why would you use Melf acid, scorching ray, wall of fire, acid rain, black dragon bolt or burning blood? They all suck. At least acid fog gives 20% concealment.

  20. #60
    Community Member psykopeta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Da_Most_Shady View Post
    Thanks for the compliment but I guess I am a bit bias after all. I have never seen a good melee sorc and in fact, most of the good sorcs I have played with are all pure. Nothing beats pure sorc for damage. I guess you can make it work but just seems wrong to gimp a class just to be different.
    pure sorc = trash food in EE, poor saves, no reflex, no defensive feats (dodge, mobility, deflect arrows, dunno if there are more)

    pure sorc would be better if the cl/ml wasn't borked, actually pure sorc sucks because the ml/cl and the cap, prolly the worst cap ingame

    and since EE saves(from mobs and needed for players) are quite insane, that means u're almost forced to use spells w/o save which are polar ray(stronger with a pure sorc water savant? prolly) and rest are dots and aoe, dots and aoe that benefit more of shiradi than draconic suckcarnation, u know with 1 proc 1 are over the damage u would do with draconic

    go 2 pally + 2 monk and air savant(for the leaps) you won't be able to see where did u lose dps and will lear what does survivability mean (as example: what about being immune to dc based spells? is quite fun having few weak points: melee and non save spells for losing...nothing, oh well, u lost 1 or 2 missiles from chain missiles)
    psykopeta - hoarding pl, for the sake of hoarding, the day i become ubercompletionist will be because there isn't anything to delay it more - thelanis, where the gimps claim to be pros and noobs claim to be pros, no newbies allowed(unless they claim to be pros), we have enough drama w/o them. PS i'm not a pro, maybe if i reincarnate in RL...

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