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  1. #341
    Community Member Stoner81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Agreed. For stats I'm thinking:

    . . . . . . . .28pt. . .32pt . . 34pt . . 36pt . . Level Up
    . . . . . . . .----. . .---- . . ---- . . ---- . . --------
    Strength. . . . 10 . . . .8. . . .10. . . . 8. . . .4: WIS
    Dexterity . . . 16 . . . 18. . . .18. . . .18. . . .8: WIS
    Constitution. . 15 . . . 15. . . .15. . . .16. . . 12: WIS
    Intelligence. . .8 . . . .8. . . . 8. . . . 8. . . 16: WIS
    Wisdom. . . . . 15 . . . 15. . . .15. . . .16
    Charisma. . . . .8 . . . .8. . . . 8. . . . 8. . .


    How much wisdom do we really need now that we have access to cannith crafted stun items? Maybe move those levelups over to dex?
    Well my guy has +4 stat tomes in everything so I was thinking 17 WIS (even 40 at level 16 with all crafted items including Insightful WIS), DEX as high as possible, 10 INT (skill points yum!) and whatever is left over in to CON (maybe 15 CON ish?) once i get home tonight I will list what stats my guy currently has that way we can work out the max possible with tomes etc included (unless you also have +4's in everything).

    Stuns are miles better now with the Stunning trinket but not quite no-fail which would be ideal, obviously more WIS means more Ki and better DC's on abilities like Ki Shout etc (which btw is stupid good in Lava Caves for pulling agro off of the Kobolds). Moving level ups would increase dps by a bit but stuff doesn't exactly last long now so I think that higher Stunning Fist DC (plus other abilities) is far better.

    Something else I have noticed is Unbalancing Strike no longer seems to turn mobs round and quite a few seem to save against it, could just have been me being unlucky but not sure since didn't Improve Deception get changed that it doesn't spin mobs round? So I'm thinking that perhaps something similar has happened here. If so then maybe switch to Fists of Iron?

    Losing the tier 4 Heal Amp is going to hurt though *cries* I love my Heal Amp

    On a side note, the Archon beaters, with new Cannith Crafting can we craft something better than under the old system? Not sure we can due to the Evil part of the DR?

    EDIT - Just realised that we need 13 STR for Power Attack maybe switch out to Whirlwind Attack instead with Precision?

    EDIT - Whirlwind Attack is not going to be doable, there just isn't enough feats for everything since it needs 5 feats just to get it and if stick to the original and we dump STR I can't get everything to fit due to PA needing 13 STR

    EDIT - The following is what I can come up which keeps the same feat order (I am hoping you can think of something I can't):

    . . . . . . . .28pt. . .32pt. . .34pt. . .36pt . . Tome . . Level Up
    . . . . . . . .----. . .----. . .----. . .---- . . ---- . . --------
    Strength. . . . 12 . . . 12 . . . 13 . . . 13. . . .+4. . . .4: WIS
    Dexterity . . . 15 . . . 15 . . . 15 . . . 16. . . .+4. . . .8: WIS
    Constitution. . 14 . . . 15 . . . 14 . . . 14. . . .+4. . . 12: WIS
    Intelligence. . 10 . . . 10 . . . 10 . . . 10. . . .+4. . . 16: WIS
    Wisdom. . . . . 15 . . . 16 . . . 17 . . . 17. . . .+4
    Charisma. . . . .8 . . . .8 . . . .8 . . . .8. . . .+4. . .


    Stoner81.

  2. #342

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    Yeah, the Power Attack str prereq is a bummer. (And whirlwind requires combat expertise which requires 13 int, so same deal there.) And tomes won't help since the only possible feats to work with are the low level ones, before tomes kick in.

    It looks like it's not worth it to switch to a dex build, since I'll be wearing the same +8/+3 stat/insightful stat items for both strength and dex regardless. That means the only difference between them is where you choose to spend enhancements (which are mostly going to wisdom anyway) and your starting stats. Your breakdown looks good, but that amounts to a mere +1 dex over the 15/15/15/8/15/8 starting stats in the OP. I'd rather have +20 healing amp and GH than +1 to my damage stat.

  3. #343
    Community Member Stoner81's Avatar
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    Where are you putting STR and Insight STR m8? Brawling Gloves give +6 so are you switching those out? This is why my DEX score is so much higher than STR atm so really curious as to what your plan is. Still tempted to pull some points from the Human tree and put them in Ninja Spy for DEX to-hit and damage though I think that would be worth it depending on if I can switch some things round and get higher STR.

    Stoner81.

  4. #344

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoner81 View Post
    Where are you putting STR and Insight STR m8? Brawling Gloves give +6 so are you switching those out?
    I am, yes. +11 str compared to +6 str is no contest.

    My current gear plan for my challenge farmer -- subject to change -- is as follows:

    Head: Cove Hat (Superior False Life of Concentration +15)
    Eyes: ML16 Wisdom 8 Goggles of True Seeing w/Ins. Wisdom 3
    Neck: ML16 Spell Saves 6 Necklace of Devotion 97 w/Ins. PRR 9
    Back: Cloak of Invisibility
    Wrist: Greensteel Smoke
    Hand: ML16 Strength 8 Gloves of Deadly 6 w/Ins. Strength 3
    Waist: Arkat's Cord
    Feet: ML16 Dexterity 8 Boots of Parrying 3 w/Ins. Dexterity 3
    Ring: ML16 Constitution 8 Ring of Sheltering 20 w/Ins. Constitution 3
    Ring: Ring of the Stalker
    Trinket: ML16 Doublestrike 9 Trinket of Stunning 9 w/Ins. Stunning 4
    Body: Frozen Tunic

    I haven't hammered out all the augments yet, but that part is pretty straightforward.

  5. #345
    Community Member Stoner81's Avatar
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    Your layout is quite a bit different than what I have though I can't remember what I have where now without logging in. I do know that I don't have Insightful Deadly, Doublestrike, Spell Saves or the Green Steel (perhaps I should do since I have a bunch of power shards left over... hmm).

    I will post my complete list later on for you to look over and see if there is anything you might have missed (I doubt it but you never know ), would you say that your gear set is the optimal layout?

    Stoner81.

  6. #346

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoner81 View Post
    Your layout is quite a bit different than what I have though I can't remember what I have where now without logging in. I do know that I don't have Insightful Deadly, Doublestrike, Spell Saves or the Green Steel (perhaps I should do since I have a bunch of power shards left over... hmm).
    It changed when I decided to upgrade from brawling gloves to +8/+3 crafted strength gloves, which let me move deadly to gloves and free up goggles suffix for true seeing.

    I don't have insightful deadly, although I would if I upgraded from scraps of enlightenment to crafted Good of Bludgeoning w/Insightful Deadly (Vampire Slayer). I'm not yet ready to pull the trigger on that because I really like my scraps.

    would you say that your gear set is the optimal layout?
    It's pretty darn close. I have everything I want except Dodge, which you have on your bracers of wind. Be mindful of that tradeoff before making your final decision on smoke bracers.

    I'm also missing insightful seeker and insightful MRR, but I definitely prefer all the insightfuls I have slotted to either of those. (You could swap cloak of invisibility for mysterious cloak to get iMRR plus more healing amp with the same green slot, but that loses 10% incorporeal. If you go that route, stalker ring still gives you ghost touch.)

  7. #347
    Community Member Stoner81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I don't have insightful deadly, although I would if I upgraded from scraps of enlightenment to crafted Good of Bludgeoning w/Insightful Deadly (Vampire Slayer). I'm not yet ready to pull the trigger on that because I really like my scraps.
    Yeah the scraps are just stupid good with all the procs plus if you can get the Mythic ones with +2 MP on too that's even better

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    It's pretty darn close. I have everything I want except Dodge, which you have on your bracers of wind. Be mindful of that tradeoff before making your final decision on smoke bracers.
    Yeah BoW gives 9% Dodge when fully upgraded plus a Green slot, so Smoke bracers gives 45HP plus the clicky which is nice but no slot, personally I think BoW win but each to their own

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I'm also missing insightful seeker and insightful MRR, but I definitely prefer all the insightfuls I have slotted to either of those. (You could swap cloak of invisibility for mysterious cloak to get iMRR plus more healing amp with the same green slot, but that loses 10% incorporeal. If you go that route, stalker ring still gives you ghost touch.)
    More Heal Amp at this point is rather meh tbh since the finisher already hits for a lot and losing 10% Incorporeal is a bummer since it does make a difference, the iMMR would be very nice though but I don't know if it is nice enough to warrant the switch over.

    Stoner81.

  8. #348
    Community Member Stoner81's Avatar
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    Here is the gear list my farmer is running currently:

    Eyes - Wisdom +8 of Deadly +6 with Insightful Wisdom +3 (Green slot available).
    Body - Tier 3 Frozen Tunic with Alchemical +1 AC and Protection +5 slotted in the Green slot.
    Wrists - Tier 3 Bracers of Wind with an empty Green slot.
    Ring - Spell Resistance +18 of Sheltering +20 with Insightful Dexterity +3 and Natural Armour +5 slotted in the Green slot.
    Boots - Dexterity +8 of Parrying +3 with Insightful Seeker +3 and Blindness Immunity slotted in the Green slot.
    Gloves - Brawling Gloves.
    Ring - Tier 3 Ring of the Stalker with an empty Green slot.
    Belt - Elite Arkat's Cord with Deathblock slotted in the Yellow slot.
    Back - Cloak of Invisibility with Heavy Fort slotted in the Green slot.
    Trinket - Stunning +9 of True Seeing with Insightful Stunning +4 and Eldritch Resistance (+1 saves).
    Neck - Constitution +8 of Devotion +97 with Insightful Constitution +3 and Resistance +5 slotted in the Green slot.
    Head - Cove Hat (Superior False Life and Concentration +15 etc).

    Currently sat at 16% Dodge due to the bracers giving 9% and at 438 HP since moving the enhancements round, one of the empty Green slots will have Heal +9 in it once I can find one. I could fit in the Doublestrike +9 and dump True Seeing and just have it as a swap when needed for the secret door in mansion runs since I think that is only time it's needed? Though that will mean getting more collectables *cries*

    AC is 75 and saves are 36/35/40 (before GH).

    Stoner81.

  9. #349

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    Nice.

    My guy doesn't have any insightful effects crafted yet. He currently spends 6 AP on three different stats: Wisdomx2 and Consitutionx1. Adding +3 insightful for both, I'll move one Wisdom to Constitution (Shintao tree) for a net of +2 Wisdom and +4 Con.

    My HP total right now is 471, and +4 con will bring that up to 503. Pretty excited to break the 500 barrier.

    Checking his tomes, he has +2 on everything except +3 str and wis. So I also have some wiggle room there.

    AC is 72, saves are 35/34/39 before GH, 39/38/43 with GH. But of course his gear is going to improve when I get around to recrafting it.

  10. #350
    Community Member Stoner81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Nice.

    My guy doesn't have any insightful effects crafted yet. He currently spends 6 AP on three different stats: Wisdomx2 and Consitutionx1. Adding +3 insightful for both, I'll move one Wisdom to Constitution (Shintao tree) for a net of +2 Wisdom and +4 Con.

    My HP total right now is 471, and +4 con will bring that up to 503. Pretty excited to break the 500 barrier.

    Checking his tomes, he has +2 on everything except +3 str and wis. So I also have some wiggle room there.

    AC is 72, saves are 35/34/39 before GH, 39/38/43 with GH. But of course his gear is going to improve when I get around to recrafting it.
    Oh wow that's impressive m8! I could hit 483HP if I get the Smoke bracers but I don't think I will since I like having the higher Dodge to much , looking forward to seeing your updated tutorials etc when you get round to doing them

    Stoner81.

  11. #351

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    I got a PM asking about modern challenge farmers. Basically is monk still the way to go, if so might dex-based be better, and would whirlwind be better than the cleaves for AoE. My reply revealed to me that I badly need to update this thread, but in the meantime I'm posting my reply here for easy reference:


    I think the monk is still either the best or very close to the best all-around challenge farmer. Warlocks may be better for some specific challenges, but in the end the most key feature is mobility, and monk run speed + abundant step really can't be beat.

    I rather enjoy my epic challenge runner (16/2/2 bard/barb/rogue swashbuckler), and my level 15 dualbox opener (13/1/1 rogue/barb/fighter mechanic) is fantastic for challenges, but whenever I switch to the monk my immediate thought is "yeah this is better."

    I tend to prefer cleave/great cleave, but whirlwind is certainly worth considering and I'm sure would be either almost as good or slightly better. ie: Roughly the same.

    Note that the only build choice for making the farmer crucible swim-ready is to spend skill points on swim. No special feats or gear needed, so I'd probably recommend just spending the points on swim because you never know. Balance isn't even needed, really, so you could still drop int a couple points and drop balance. (I'm pretty sure my monk has never once been knocked down.) Remember, though, that if you drop int you can't get whirlwind attack, which requires combat expertise. (I'm not sure how possible it is to fit in whirlwind attack; feats are tight.)

    I need to update the gear and total stats breakdowns; the crafting pass ended up redoing pretty much all his gear, and it ends up awesome. The current gear my guy on live actually uses is detailed here.

    I also need to update the enhancements for the monk pass. The enhancement I actually use on live are very close to this, with the only differences being which stats I spend AP on to even out tomes.

    I run in wind stance mostly for the stacking doublestrike, which is very nice. Also getting a slight buff to melee alacrity is ok but not really needed; it's the unique and stacking doublstrike that really sells it for me. I almost never run out of ki thanks to frozen tunic; in fact I often end up with a maxed ki bar because I'm lazy about special attacks.

    Right after the crafting pass I considered switching from str to dex based, but the key problem ended up being Power Attack requirements for the cleaves. Because of that you can't fully dump strength, and if you don't fully dump strength you won't be able to get dex much higher than a str-based build gets strength, so there's no real advantage either way. I explain the thought process and conclusion here.

    One final selling point of the monk for me personally is that I do not have a monk character, so having a monk as a challenge farmer is nice for build variety. If I did have a main character monk I would put more thought into going with a swashbuckler, mechanic, or warlock depending on which of those I did not have as a main character.

    Consolidation of the above links for easy reference:

    Gear * Enhancements

  12. #352
    Community Member Stoner81's Avatar
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    I have been having another think on Whirlwind Attack and I think it may be possible depending on when you can select the feats etc however, I do think it's giving up a lot...

    For Whirldwind Attack we need the following:

    Dodge.
    Mobility.
    Spring Attack.
    Combat Expertise.
    Whirlwind Attack.

    5 feats in total.

    The only way I can see us getting those feats is to give up the following:

    Power Attack.
    Cleave.
    Great Cleave.
    Stunning Fist (I really don't like this).
    Past Life: Monk (I really don't like this either).

    DDoor is required as are the TWF feats so there is only the above to work with, the first 3 are fine obviously but the last 2 I really don't like the idea of giving them up at all another thought I had was do we need STR for any levers or anything like that during the challenges? I can't think off anything of hand but one never knows.

    If somebody wanted to do it then it could be done on a 32pt build easy enough just pull the points from STR and dump them in to INT which would leave 1 point short but a +1 tome could cover that easy enough without causing to many issues? If it were 34pt or 36pt build then there is enough points to do it with without requiring any extra tomes besides the +2 DEX tome needed for the full TWF feats.

    EDIT - I am actually starting to think that Buying Time is either bugged or I'm so unbelievably poo at it that's it's just stupid, 5 runs of it tonight and the most I ever got was 150 Mephit Wings the kobolds are just dumb for picking up crystals and for going the wrong way etc. I usually have well under 1 minute left before boss lady spawns

    EDIT - Yup it was indeed me being poo, I rolled a 1 on my reading check turns out I wasn't buying workers *facepalm* no wonder my scores were so low.

    Stoner81.

  13. #353
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    Is the optimal level for a challenge farmer still 16? if so I was toying around with the idea of a 12/1/3 Bard/barb/fighter. It would have ddoor as a spell, as well as FoM, cure critical wounds, and displacement. It would also have haste for kobolds and sonic blast for items in rushmore's mountain, as well as invis. Fighter would give 2 bonus feats and stalwart stance. it would, however, be 3% slower than a monk (1% slower with haste on I think), and lose abundant step, but this would be somewhat allayed by gaining sprint boost. I don't know if this is superior to monk, but it seems to contain a lot of the build points you're focusing on, which could lead to easier optimization. I'm not too familiar with challenge farmers, so I don't know if this would work or not, but figured it was worth asking

    P. S. It would also give me an excuse to use a Kookie Kutter XD

  14. #354

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    Quote Originally Posted by Draxani View Post
    Is the optimal level for a challenge farmer still 16? if so I was toying around with the idea of a 12/1/3 Bard/barb/fighter. It would have ddoor as a spell, as well as FoM, cure critical wounds, and displacement. It would also have haste for kobolds and sonic blast for items in rushmore's mountain, as well as invis. Fighter would give 2 bonus feats and stalwart stance. it would, however, be 3% slower than a monk (1% slower with haste on I think), and lose abundant step, but this would be somewhat allayed by gaining sprint boost. I don't know if this is superior to monk, but it seems to contain a lot of the build points you're focusing on, which could lead to easier optimization. I'm not too familiar with challenge farmers, so I don't know if this would work or not, but figured it was worth asking

    P. S. It would also give me an excuse to use a Kookie Kutter XD
    A swashbuckler is a solid challenge farmer; my dualbox account has an epic challenge runner for the exact reasons you describe. (And for variety, since I wouldn't otherwise have a swashbuckler.) When dualboxing epic challenges, I typically park the wizard at the foreman and run torches with the swashbuckler, and it's awesome.

    The only downside of the swashbuckler is that you have no real AoE attack. The monk's cleave + great cleave is pretty nice. And while I don't overly miss abundant step on my swashbuckler or my level 15 mechanic (another great challenge farmer), when I switch to the monk I find myself constantly spamming abundant step and wondering how I live without it. When dualboxing heroic challenges, I park the mechanic at the foreman and run torches with the monk.

    As for weapons, you'd be better off with a Forrester's Brush Hook (clear #1 best choice, I think), Axe of the Unseen Blow (clear #1 if you have 6 fighter levels, but still good if you don't), or Razorend. My epic challenge runner uses the ML17 brush hook as her weapon even at level 21.

  15. #355

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    I've updated the build, including the gear and stats breakdowns in posts 2 & 3.

  16. #356

  17. #357
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    Have you thought of a single fighter level to fit in whirlwind? You could dump str, but you'd lose 0.5[3.5] and adamantine fists. You'd also have to drop greater heroism or some points from henshin to get dex to hit and damage from ninja spy. Also, I don't know how useful your quivering palm is, but if it's not great, you could splash a rogue level and/or a 2nd fighter level for another feat and trap skills. You'd lose 5% run speed, 3 ac, and quivering palm.

  18. #358

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    Quote Originally Posted by peng View Post
    Have you thought of a single fighter level to fit in whirlwind? You could dump str, but you'd lose 0.5[3.5] and adamantine fists. You'd also have to drop greater heroism or some points from henshin to get dex to hit and damage from ninja spy. Also, I don't know how useful your quivering palm is, but if it's not great, you could splash a rogue level and/or a 2nd fighter level for another feat and trap skills. You'd lose 5% run speed, 3 ac, and quivering palm.
    All of those sacrifices are relatively minor:

    • Losing a die step would be fully made up for with the +4 or so dex compared to strength, so that's a wash
    • 5% less run speed is a bummer, for sure, but not the end of the world
    • Greater Heroism is a non-issue in terms of effectiveness (planar gird)
    • Adamantine bypass is nice for animated armors, but they die pretty quick regardless
    • 3 AC one way or the other is largely irrelevant
    • His quivering palm isn't great, so dropping to 14 would be fine
    • If spending on ninja spy anyway, I'd say go for the 25% ghostly and free up the cloak slot
    • A single rogue level to be able to unlock the gates in rushmore would be awesome-sauce
    • Definitely don't drop any points from henshin. That melee power rocks.


    All in all it should be solid. For me personally, part of the appeal of the monk in the OP is that it's less clicky-intensive. 16:00 greater heroism with multiple charges all in a single hotbar button is, for me, a meaningful improvement over cluttering my inventory and hotbar with planar girds. And I greatly prefer 10% passive ghostly to 25% ghostly I have to recast every minute. But I'm a more casual gamer.

  19. #359

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    DDO Bonus Days bring you a Double Mysterious Remnants Boost along with a +50% Challenge Boost, now through September 24th!
    Wiki dashboard with some useful stealthplay links
    Proud Knight of the Silver Legion, Cannith: Saekee (main; epic completionist), Naerfelka (farmer), Saelegion (parked at level 4!)


  20. #360

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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    A swashbuckler is a solid challenge farmer ... The only downside of the swashbuckler is that you have no real AoE attack.
    Yes. I was (maybe a bit out of the loop atm) but I was always back and forth on swashbucklers vs arcane for challenge farmers and AOE was the big factor.
    For non-undead challenges the charms etc can mitigate that a bit for distracting mobs away from killing your kobolds or extractors or w/e but nothing beats a good old fashioned explosion for dealing with enemies :-D
    Still, the zippyness of a swashbuckler is hard to beat.
    BONGO FURY - Ghallanda - Thingfish - Wizard, Diuni - Ninja, Gheale - Angel, Dullknife - Tank, Noodlefish - Gimp, Jaquaby - Treacherous and other gimps I won't cop to.

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