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  1. #1
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    Default New Stealth System

    The new stealth system is horribly broken. Even with the feat "Stealthy" and maxed hide and move silent, monsters can detect you from the other side of the room, and worse for rogues, it tends to aggro everybody else in a wide area.

    It is almost impossible to land a backstab, which requires luck or a failed bluff roll more than anything else (forget about patience, timing, and positioning), and forget about stealthily sneaking around the mobs, like in the quest Stealthy Repossession. Even if mobs don't see you through doors (a bigger problem now than ever), they can quickly see (or hear, or whatever) right through stealth.

    The old system was fine. Too many changes just for the sake of change. Thanks for taking my favorite class from me, Turbine.

  2. #2
    Community Member kanordog's Avatar
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    Agreed!
    I just got busted three times in a lvl 3 dungeon with a 17/17 hide/ms which is the unmodified skill for a level 14!
    Thieves are frustrating to play, simple splash class to deal with traps (or get some dps with quarterstaves).
    Although the new alerting system much much better, having a more detailed feedback from monsters (looking at the character, suspecting something etc), makes sneaking easier but the spot and listen skills are just way too high for the monster cr.
    Would be nice to be able to play a thief who's more than an evasive trapper.


    ps.:Martialis is best poet ever

  3. #3
    The Hatchery
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    My lvl9 bard/ranger with 25 H/MS can sneak fine in Elite, and my lvl25 Rogue with something stupid like 120 H/MS can, too.

    What quests are you running, and on what difficulty? What's your H/MS scores, and are you in a party?

  4. #4
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    I believe true seeing gives mobs a +30 spot, havent tried any low levle quests, but my shadar kai can stealth rather well. and all of my epic toons can as well, even the ones with really bad hide/ms scores.

  5. #5
    Community Member psykopeta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martialis View Post
    The new stealth system is horribly broken. Even with the feat "Stealthy" and maxed hide and move silent, monsters can detect you from the other side of the room, and worse for rogues, it tends to aggro everybody else in a wide area.

    It is almost impossible to land a backstab, which requires luck or a failed bluff roll more than anything else (forget about patience, timing, and positioning), and forget about stealthily sneaking around the mobs, like in the quest Stealthy Repossession. Even if mobs don't see you through doors (a bigger problem now than ever), they can quickly see (or hear, or whatever) right through stealth.

    The old system was fine. Too many changes just for the sake of change. Thanks for taking my favorite class from me, Turbine.
    they can't see you from the other side of the room, may suspect(1 eye over u), you're doing somethinmg wrong, really wrong, with older method i had to figure reactions by staring at the mobs, now is a flowing action, and they stop chasing you after missing some hits

    red eye over the mob? it has seen you, again you did something wrong, now is much faster to success on stealth, almost sure mobs skills haven't changed, only the the information we get from them did, also, being at certain distance(what was? feet?) gives mobs a +20 search/spot, must be in front, of course

    also, kill someone near other mobs is just dumb, that was broken, you have to bluff/noisemaker other mobs to succeed
    psykopeta - hoarding pl, for the sake of hoarding, the day i become ubercompletionist will be because there isn't anything to delay it more - thelanis, where the gimps claim to be pros and noobs claim to be pros, no newbies allowed(unless they claim to be pros), we have enough drama w/o them. PS i'm not a pro, maybe if i reincarnate in RL...

  6. #6
    2015 DDO Players Council MangLord's Avatar
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    I rolled up a brand new shadar-kai with the update, played some harbor quests to get coin lord favor, and was getting spotted by lvl 4 kobolds. What kind of nonsense is that? I put max points into sneaker skills every level, and had the starter gear DDO assumed would get me through at'level quest, so I don't know what to think. All this time I was underestimating the uncanny eyesight of simple kobolds. At lvl 15, I should be able to bump into them accidentally and have them think it was just the wind. For cripes sake.

    I'm not a game designer, but how hard is it to put a damned exclamation point over my head with a stoplight colorsystem that tells me an enemy hears something I did/green, an enemy is suspicious of my presence/yellow, and an enemy see me/red? Every other game in existence seems to manage this, but DDO decided to go with this truly arcane system of both footprints and eyes. I can only keep track of so much with the 100 new clickies and warnings constantly popping up. Simplify. While I'm on the topic, why is there hide and move silently? Can't it just be "sneak" skill? I find it unlikely that a master of camouflage is tromping through the forest with clown shoes, singing irish drinking songs. The two skills go hand in hand.

    Conversely, I was just running through Demon Sands on my lvl 12 Paladin with a Command item on, swinging wildly at a gnoll with another on the hill completely oblivious to the ferocious combat 20 feet away. He looked so serene at his higher elevation. Must be the same system that lets me spot a magical globe trap, search for it 100 times until I pop it because its on a staircase and I can't see it ever.

  7. #7
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    so far the main way i get spotted is if i walk towards a mob long enough for it's over time spot bonus to stack up enough or if i bump into a mob. both result in the large red eye and me scarpering off round a corner to hide again.

    i'm only playing with stealth at lvl14 as i'm mid way through my 2nd life, but at level elites and messing about in lowbie market quests has shown a much better stealth system than the previous mobs-with-sonar system.

    bit annoying that the casters in the minefield in undermine all managed to spot me sneaking about, but eventually i used this to hold aggro while the casters did the mario part and nuked them (sneaking through a minefield is quite a buzz ). the archers then got my blade in their back once the casters were dealt with leaving me to do the soul stone collecting game to get the PUG back together whilst the others set about securing the shrine.

    sounds like i need to go play with the kobolds again as from what you're saying we might need to do some bug reporting.
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  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Martialis View Post
    The new stealth system is horribly broken. Even with the feat "Stealthy" and maxed hide and move silent, monsters can detect you from the other side of the room, and worse for rogues, it tends to aggro everybody else in a wide area.

    It is almost impossible to land a backstab, which requires luck or a failed bluff roll more than anything else (forget about patience, timing, and positioning), and forget about stealthily sneaking around the mobs, like in the quest Stealthy Repossession. Even if mobs don't see you through doors (a bigger problem now than ever), they can quickly see (or hear, or whatever) right through stealth.

    The old system was fine. Too many changes just for the sake of change. Thanks for taking my favorite class from me, Turbine.
    Just did stealthy repossession on a lvl 3 rogue toon. Normal, Hard and Elite, had no problems like you did unless I did something blatantly stupid like walking in front of a kobold... T_T. They do not have very good search at all, I managed to get past kobolds multiple by passing like a foot to the right of them and they never saw me (4 eyes tho).

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martialis View Post
    The old system was fine.
    No, it wasn't. The old system was horribly broken. The new one may be broken in different ways, but let's not spread falsehoods like you just did.

  10. #10
    Community Member rest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FalseFlag View Post
    No, it wasn't. The old system was horribly broken. The new one may be broken in different ways, but let's not spread falsehoods like you just did.
    Not a falsehood, just his opinion. I happen to share it.

  11. #11
    The Hatchery
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    Quote Originally Posted by rest View Post
    Not a falsehood, just his opinion. I happen to share it.
    The old system was absolutely not better.

    Besides the visual feedback given while invisible/sneaking (which can be turned off), I am not seeing any changes besides the fact that mobs will give up on looking for you after awhile if you get spotted, instead of endlessly tracking you. This is an incredibly good change.

    Give me one, singular reason why the old system was any better.

  12. #12
    2015 DDO Players Council MangLord's Avatar
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    The old system was absolutely terrible. I think the new one has potential, but there's conflicting bonuses between this one and the old way. For example, my ranger's shiradi destiny adds to my hide skill if I stand in place, but is now completely negated by the overwhelming bonus the enemy gets if(when) they get near me. That makes no sense.

    The whole idea of hiding is staying in place until the enemy walks past, then stabbing them in the back. If the system encourages dumping points into both hiding and moving silently, then there should be some advantage to a high hide skill, rather than some nebulous, overall "sneak" modifier.

    I think the system should be adjusted so enemy spot chance ratchets up slower, and gets completely negated if you're hiding in a dark corner motionless with a high enough skill. I'd like to have the option to use stealth much more tactically. Being able to stealthily kill one or two enemies and then reverting into fighter-lite for the rest of the mob doesn't work. Rogues have enough issues with hp and self healing as it is.

  13. #13
    Community Member kanordog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post

    What quests are you running, and on what difficulty? What's your H/MS scores, and are you in a party?
    lol
    Level 2 (yes, two, not a typo!) on normal with a lvl 5 rogue, H/MS 17 (stated above)
    and I played a lot of "sneaking" games, sneaked through fps games without sneaking ability just by remaining out of sight (where it was possible). I do not stand afront of monsters etc.
    Still, I got busted in Hazadhill's warehouse!
    This was my last toon I wasted points/item slots in sneak.

    ps.: old or new, the problem is the same, enemies got a spot/listen skill equal of the traps DC's
    way too high
    Last edited by kanordog; 08-27-2013 at 05:27 PM.

  14. #14
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    lvl15 rogue, stealthy on elite, worked like a charm. guess you'd need to do some more testing to work out why it went pear shaped.
    Last edited by ReaperAlexEU; 08-27-2013 at 07:34 PM. Reason: *mutters about over zealous censoring*
    www.legendsguild.eu A light RP guild that's moved from Keeper in Europe to Thelanis
    Play DDO in 3D, for fweeeee! how to use coloured 3D glasses with DDO.
    East? West? Which way's that? Putting East and West back on the (mini)map
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  15. #15
    Community Member kanordog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReaperAlexEU View Post
    lvl15 rogue, stealthy on elite, worked like a charm. guess you'd need to do some more testing to work out why it went pear shaped.
    By lvl 15 I usually give up on sneaking, maybe giants has worse spot then those little kobolds have? Good news! I'll sneak through Gianthold then!

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martialis View Post
    The new stealth system is horribly broken. Even with the feat "Stealthy" and maxed hide and move silent, monsters can detect you from the other side of the room, and worse for rogues, it tends to aggro everybody else in a wide area.

    It is almost impossible to land a backstab, which requires luck or a failed bluff roll more than anything else (forget about patience, timing, and positioning), and forget about stealthily sneaking around the mobs, like in the quest Stealthy Repossession. Even if mobs don't see you through doors (a bigger problem now than ever), they can quickly see (or hear, or whatever) right through stealth.

    The old system was fine. Too many changes just for the sake of change. Thanks for taking my favorite class from me, Turbine.
    I would have to agree about landing a backstab, the mobs have a noticeable increase detecting stealth when your moving in their frontal arc of view. The icons DO help moving yourself around under stealth. My rogue has about 76 Hide and 73 Move Silent, and. I get the "I'm looking at you icon" and their spot increase seems to increase per 6 seconds. I don't believe the new system is fully broken, and the new loss of detection does work. However, there is a proximity distance in which their increased spot remains constant. By this I mean that you have to move away, sometimes ducking behind a door with the mob on the other side may not be enough distance away to break detection. The new system does slow you down and reconsider your path options while moving stealthy.

    I tested the detection break by shooting a mob, as a pull, than immediately dropping to stealth behind an object. It works well. I've stabbed a mob in the back, jumped back into stealth while moving and ducked behind an object, it works. I had trouble when you had to retreat while visible before going to stealth. I recommend trying to remain stealthy even after taking a hit, while moving away into cover.

  17. #17
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    being edited

  18. #18
    Community Member psykopeta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MangLord View Post
    The old system was absolutely terrible. I think the new one has potential, but there's conflicting bonuses between this one and the old way. For example, my ranger's shiradi destiny adds to my hide skill if I stand in place, but is now completely negated by the overwhelming bonus the enemy gets if(when) they get near me. That makes no sense.

    The whole idea of hiding is staying in place until the enemy walks past, then stabbing them in the back. If the system encourages dumping points into both hiding and moving silently, then there should be some advantage to a high hide skill, rather than some nebulous, overall "sneak" modifier.

    I think the system should be adjusted so enemy spot chance ratchets up slower, and gets completely negated if you're hiding in a dark corner motionless with a high enough skill. I'd like to have the option to use stealth much more tactically. Being able to stealthily kill one or two enemies and then reverting into fighter-lite for the rest of the mob doesn't work. Rogues have enough issues with hp and self healing as it is.
    dump str, go dex based, get blindness on crit(aka radiance, or use shadow dagger/blade whatever, with a dc close to assassinate's dc) improved deception(ring of lies upgraded, just insane) and a polycurse dagger

    is just silly how OP is the damm halfling(ofc 4 heal slas, 6 csw slas, 8 clw slas, also u should be able to use heal scroll with almost 0% fail, unless u dumped cha to get only 1+ hp per level, i've seen ppl doing so, what a shame)

    3rd rogue life, 1st stealthy one(1st was wf arti/mechanic, 2nd was acrobat/monk w/o druid, it's a waste of a lvl ,before the update both lvies) and is just way too op, also, must say, is wasting time trying to do sneaky quests at low lvl, dunno if it's gear or dex, but mobs used to die too fast how to bother going stealthy(w/o assassinate)

    lvl 15 and my dc on assassinate is at 40, it was not hard to reach it and is just too high for at lvl quests(also if u fail, u can just ran away and mob will stop chasing u LOL so u can try assassinating it after the cd, i know because that's what happened to me with the named drow at end of von3 XDDDD)

    also, i've read that trap dc's are high, false, trap dc's are thought to be easily done by an almost maxed toon, maybe hide and ms recquirements are too, nothing that should worry, btw, lvl 5 and 17 is low imho, 8 from ranks, 7 from item, 6 from ability mod is almost 25% more

    ofc 17 would be enough if well used, looks like it's not the case
    psykopeta - hoarding pl, for the sake of hoarding, the day i become ubercompletionist will be because there isn't anything to delay it more - thelanis, where the gimps claim to be pros and noobs claim to be pros, no newbies allowed(unless they claim to be pros), we have enough drama w/o them. PS i'm not a pro, maybe if i reincarnate in RL...

  19. #19
    Community Member kanordog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psykopeta View Post
    also, i've read that trap dc's are high, false, trap dc's are thought to be easily done by an almost maxed toon, maybe hide and ms recquirements are too, nothing that should worry, btw, lvl 5 and 17 is low imho, 8 from ranks, 7 from item, 6 from ability mod is almost 25% more

    ofc 17 would be enough if well used, looks like it's not the case
    ok, we have a different point of view
    You're a veteran DDO player
    I'm a veteran D&D player

    this is obviously a much more different version I knew (or expected)
    not a big deal

  20. #20
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    I have to say that the first 2 days I experienced the same issue of getting noticed way too fast.
    Maybe I wasn't used to the new system but didn't feel so at all and only seemed to be the case in some quests.
    But now this getting noticed all the time seems to be over.
    I have to say that the remark of standing still in a good hiding place and waiting till the enemy past you by is one that logically should work better. But in overall I do like the new system a lot more, but like anything new it needs tweaking.

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