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  1. #21
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    The new loot is really overpowering. I have 27 lives worth of gear, and ended up slotting two new things I pulled while questing for an hour through level 12 quests. That's just insane.
    Yeah, I was stunned as to the stuff people were pulling on upper-end heroic content. I believe I saw a +8 stat item in there. We were pretty much all lvl 19s.

    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    1.) This is all a bug and lootgen tables/drop rates are broken. This could be, but we've already seen one hotfix. I would think that would be at the top of their list.
    I certainly hope this is the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    2.) It's an attempt to bring casters and noncasters closer together. While casters got some new prefixes and suffixes, the majority has been a buff to melee.
    That would be a HUGE mistake, in my opinion. Parity between melee and casters would undoubtedly favor melee in the end, as they have no SP pool to limit their abilities, they have all sorts of defensive capabilities (AC, PRR, and high HP), and with increased offensive capabilities would push people towards abandoning casters.

    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    3.) DDO is moving away from a loot-centric grind game into something else. I don't know what that something else would be, but this could be a good possibility.
    That also would be a huge mistake, in my honest opinion. People want a reward for their hard work and efforts, and they generally look for something more tangible. XP is a rather intangible item. Plus, with a build-centric system like DDO, many builders would simply move on to something else because they don’t have gear they can put into their plans.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I realize that. However, you've always had a distinction between Death Ward and Deathblock, and neg level absorption. I'm personally on the fence about this one as I can see the connection, but my biggest concern is that when you start adding bonus things to equipment prefix / suffix items, you tilt the balance of the game. Beholders, for example, are a REALLY meddlesome for a lot of players because of their insane ability to basically strip away Death Ward, neg level you into oblivion, and/or kill you outright. Add a deathblock item, and they cannot kill you outright, but they can still mercilessly neg-level you. So, if you wanted to avoid this, you looked for some special gear that avoided the neg levels, like some specific named items (or simply became a HotD pally). While I thought there were a significant lack of those items in the game, the new lootgen now overcompensates (IMHO) and throws it onto deathblock. There is now no trading-off one piece of equipment for another. This I see as a potential unbalancing mechanism of the game. it would have been better to just add a prefix or suffix to random lootgen that avoided neg levels as opposed to rolling it into Deathblock.
    Does the new deathblock absorb negative levels, though? Is that confirmed?

    Everything I've read says that it gets "negative energy absorption", which is pretty much worthless. Negative energy <> negative levels. For example, cannith crafting has always allowed crafting negative energy absorption, but nobody does because it's so pointless.

    The only times I'm aware of when we face negative energy is the green aura of skeleton mages (death aura) which does trivial damage, and Draegloths in the demonweb cast negative energy burst, which does minor damage. Negative energy absorbtion absorbs a % of that damage.

    Negative levels, otoh, are a whole different thing. To prevent that you need either a SF necklace to absorb the negative levels, or cast deathward and wear a PLIS to absorb the anti-magic effect that removes DW.

    I don't think the new deathward stops level drain at all.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by myliftkk_v2 View Post
    Better hoard that loot before they nerf the random generator.

    I agree that the stuff dropping at lower levels <20 is OP. The stuff dropping around 24-28ML seems fine to me, though it throws all the "pre-built super specific plans" out of whack since finding a really nice piece could change how you think about your toon's gear. That's all to the better I feel, as someone who leads and participates in pugs. No more complaints about doing opts to get another chest, since pretty much any of them can drop something useful at a given moment. No more, rare loot is all there is, blah blah blah.

    I can completely see them tweaking the way its generating for lower levels, since you could already get decent random loot at those levels.

    The only people who should hate the new system are those hostages in Lesson of Deception. As a party member said. "They've should stayed with the group!", as we popped open a chest.
    With the new on-the-fly lootgen calculations any nerfs will impact existing gear unless they create a new prefix/suffix to replace the old.

  4. #24
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Where to start.

    Stat items. I was always actually ok with stat items capping at 6 in heroic levels. The fact that you can get the highest amount at level 11, or 9 actually, just meant that at higher levels, you could swap to stat items with useful suffixes.

    The thing about reaching epic was that was the first time it was possible to see +7 or +8 stat items. Now, it's apparently possible for stat items up to +8 to random generate in heroic levels. The problem is, all of those epic items, and particularly the old trinity epic items, are still only +7 or +8 stats.

    Let's take the eveningstar commendation gear for example. This was pretty decent stuff for people who don't have the time or inclination to grind for top end gear. Getting +7 stats signified that you had indeed reached epic levels, and to some degree, all bets were off.

    It should in no way be possible for putting on epic gear to be an objective downgrade from items you were using in heroic levels. This makes the game lose it's 'self-consistency'.

    As far as the weapons go, that seems to be more of a lateral move. It's just different, not necessarily better. The tactics bonus items now add a feature where they cause stat damge to the stat that relates to the save that tactic is used against. They have limits to their frequency and maximum stacking. So a new stunning item might give me +6, and allow me, after a few hits to lower the opponent save by 2. So functionally, this is the same as stunning +8. Except that on my monk for example, stunning an opponent is usually the first thing i do, i don't want to have to warm them up first. Meh, to each his own, lateral move i say.

    They replaced burst effects with larger static amounts of damage. This is likely a wash. Burst effects are aptly named. because they produce a large number of..well, numbers when they go off. But how much damage are they actually doing on average? A standard elemental burst effect really only adds about 5 points of damage per hit. This varies slightly depending on the crit profile of the weapon. If a weapon instead has an effect that gives a larger base elemental damage, say 2-12, it's doing an average of 7. So it's slightly better, it just doesn't look like it, because the number displays aren't as flashy. And who knows, maybe less calculations is better in terms of lag.

    Now the big one, the new deadly and accuracy effects. The first thing i will mention is that they are both competence bonuses. They don't stack with either the ship hobgoblin or the dummy. So if you regularly use those buffs, you can reduce the effectiveness of these items by 2.

    Accuracy. This is actually not overpowered. The problem is that the old effects which gave +1 or +2 to hit became vastly underpowered when the new ac system came in. In the old system, a +1 to hit would absolutely give you a 5% increase in landed hits assuming you were within the to hit band. Now, it takes about +5-7 to accomplish the same thing, and everybody is in the band. So what they really need to do is go back and change all the old named to hit effects to this new system and everything will be swell. Also the weapon focus feat. Just change it to a flat 5% increase in to hit. Like precision, except without the fort bypass. Stackable, so if somebody wants to take 3 feats to increase their to hit by 15%, let em.

    Deadly. Yeah this one's too high.

    Seeking. Bloodstone schmudstone.

    There are more i could talk about, but i'm tired of typing. May come back to it later.

  5. #25
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Does the new deathblock absorb negative levels, though? Is that confirmed?

    Everything I've read says that it gets "negative energy absorption", which is pretty much worthless. Negative energy <> negative levels. For example, cannith crafting has always allowed crafting negative energy absorption, but nobody does because it's so pointless.

    The only times I'm aware of when we face negative energy is the green aura of skeleton mages (death aura) which does trivial damage, and Draegloths in the demonweb cast negative energy burst, which does minor damage. Negative energy absorbtion absorbs a % of that damage.

    Negative levels, otoh, are a whole different thing. To prevent that you need either a SF necklace to absorb the negative levels, or cast deathward and wear a PLIS to absorb the anti-magic effect that removes DW.

    I don't think the new deathward stops level drain at all.
    You're probably right on that....which makes the change really pointless I guess. That is, unless, we're going to see more in the way of neg energy damage in future quests.

    I saw it in passing, noticed that there were levels to deathblock, said to myself "how are there frickin' LEVELS to deathbloc?" Then I read about negative energy / level absorption I'm trying to recall this from memory.

    if it simply negative energy, it is sorta useless. (and therefor I have no reason to be upset). If it is neg levels, then I still have a standing complaint.

  6. #26
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Does the new deathblock absorb negative levels, though? Is that confirmed?

    Everything I've read says that it gets "negative energy absorption", which is pretty much worthless. Negative energy <> negative levels. For example, cannith crafting has always allowed crafting negative energy absorption, but nobody does because it's so pointless.

    The only times I'm aware of when we face negative energy is the green aura of skeleton mages (death aura) which does trivial damage, and Draegloths in the demonweb cast negative energy burst, which does minor damage. Negative energy absorbtion absorbs a % of that damage.

    Negative levels, otoh, are a whole different thing. To prevent that you need either a SF necklace to absorb the negative levels, or cast deathward and wear a PLIS to absorb the anti-magic effect that removes DW.

    I don't think the new deathward stops level drain at all.
    I'm quite certain it doesn't stop level drain. There are a whole bunch of new absorption items for all elements, with percentages just like the deathblock items.

    Agreed that negative energy absorption is a fairly negligible effect. Some casters do use inflict and harm spells, though. Does deathblock prevent the massive damage from finger of death that you still get on a made save? It probably does.

    My question for you, or anybody that can answer this:

    Do they stack. Currently, as far as i know, absorption effects of different amounts stack multiplicatively. So 10,15,20% absorption, as you might find together on a greensteel item, all stack together. The new items are all even numbers, 14,16,18,etc. Do they stack into that rotation? Granted, all of the ones i have seen are on armor, so you couldn't stack them with each other. But do they stack with other items with absorption effects having unlike amounts? I would assume that they do.

    Also, with the new inflations, they may need to drop all augments down a tier to stay competitive. I'm thinking specifically of resistance, which an augment can only be +6 at level 20.

  7. #27
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    Do they stack. Currently, as far as i know, absorption effects of different amounts stack multiplicatively. So 10,15,20% absorption, as you might find together on a greensteel item, all stack together. The new items are all even numbers, 14,16,18,etc. Do they stack into that rotation? Granted, all of the ones i have seen are on armor, so you couldn't stack them with each other. But do they stack with other items with absorption effects having unlike amounts? I would assume that they do.
    I don't know about stacking, but I remember reading months ago by a dev that there is an order to absorption and such effects if you have more than 1 item of the same thing equipped. how the order works, I don't know.

  8. #28
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    I don't know about stacking, but I remember reading months ago by a dev that there is an order to absorption and such effects if you have more than 1 item of the same thing equipped. how the order works, I don't know.
    As far as i know, it works sort of like heal amp. Think of each absorption effect as a wall the spell has to pass through. Each wall nips it's percent amount off of the total incoming damage. The reduced amount then goes through the next wall, which takes its percentage off of the already reduced damage. So it compounds. It doesn't add together, meaning having 10,15,20% absorption doesn't give you 45% absorption.

  9. #29
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    3.) DDO is moving away from a loot-centric grind game into something else. I don't know what that something else would be, but this could be a good possibility.
    They almost have to, the exact named item with the exact known location repeat until "hey this is stupid I'm going outside" or "I got what I wanted I'm going outside" meta-gaming is a business model failure. most MMO's are suffering from it... except the ones where no one knows "where do I get that" and "how many times do I need to repeat the exact same quest to get it". Games like Diablo and Path of Exile for example.

    No matter how players hem and haw the truth is that random loot has an element of unknown and discovery that is completely lacking in DDO. what's more the player base sucks up all the named loot in a couple weeks and moves on, leading to wild swings in population. When player don't know what they are getting they can't say "Okay I've got the good loot, I'm going outside" it promotes running different quests and deemphasizes farming. Assuming the Devs did a good job with XP ransack (to discourage repetition while looking for random loot) and also assuming they can keep from making quests like Impossible demands where you can get a chest 10 times in 15 minutes, and probably with a few more tweaks besides that; they may end up getting people to keep playing between updates, and play more varied content (again conceding that they need to sus out those quests with super easy chests or overly abundant chests with little effort)

    Most sane people do not have fun playing the same quest over and over until ransack and then doing it again a week later. (As an aside they need to make Loot ransack work like quest XP ransack now)

    Now if they could just manage more random/procedural quest layouts and such.

  10. #30
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    As far as i know, it works sort of like heal amp. Think of each absorption effect as a wall the spell has to pass through. Each wall nips it's percent amount off of the total incoming damage. The reduced amount then goes through the next wall, which takes its percentage off of the already reduced damage. So it compounds. It doesn't add together, meaning having 10,15,20% absorption doesn't give you 45% absorption.
    They need to take old lame "DR" and make it work like that and convert it to a percentage

    1 DR - (every hit is one % less)
    5 DR Evil (-5% more damage unless evil aligned)
    10 DR Adamantine (-10% more if not Ada)

    100 damage hit would become 99, 95, 86

    Make like amounts not stack, I haven't paid any attention to DR in ages.

  11. #31
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    They need to take old lame "DR" and make it work like that and convert it to a percentage

    1 DR - (every hit is one % less)
    5 DR Evil (-5% more damage unless evil aligned)
    10 DR Adamantine (-10% more if not Ada)

    100 damage hit would become 99, 95, 86

    Make like amounts not stack, I haven't paid any attention to DR in ages.
    That's basically what prr is. I mostly tr, so prr is worthless to me. I love dr. I know what kind of effect it has, unlike prr. They just need to upgrade the amounts of dr that you can get. To make them more relevant later in the game.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    You're probably right on that....which makes the change really pointless I guess. That is, unless, we're going to see more in the way of neg energy damage in future quests.

    I saw it in passing, noticed that there were levels to deathblock, said to myself "how are there frickin' LEVELS to deathbloc?" Then I read about negative energy / level absorption I'm trying to recall this from memory.

    if it simply negative energy, it is sorta useless. (and therefor I have no reason to be upset). If it is neg levels, then I still have a standing complaint.
    It's negative energy and it is a bit useful as it's free and I believe beholders have a cause wounds type eyebeam it will reduce after one's immunity from DW is removed. Other than that, mobs do cast harm/cause X wounds spells that would make it useful if DW wasn't making us immune.

  13. #33
    Community Member RavenStormclaw's Avatar
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    Some of the secondary effects they introduced are interesting. One in particular caught my eye. Stunning now , as a secondary effect, causes an automatic daze effect reducing the targets will save by 1 which can stack 5 times....interesting if you combine that with a build that could cast charms or hold person effectively....which I am working on.

  14. #34

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    Oh, thought of another negative energy damage that mobs cast, in addition to the inflict/harms people have added:

    Night Hags cast the necrotic blast pale master sla.

  15. #35
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unacceptable View Post
    With the new on-the-fly lootgen calculations any nerfs will impact existing gear unless they create a new prefix/suffix to replace the old.
    This is the part that concerns me the most about the new random gen stuff. It seems very op vs most named loot of comparable (and sometimes eve higher) level named gear. So we've not only gone from "power creep" to "power leap" but any adjustments they make will likely be accross the board and retroactive... And with storage space seemingly capped, it's extremely difficult to decide what to keep (old or new) and what to toss (again old or new). It just feels unlikely that the current drops are wai in all cases.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  16. #36
    The Front Side Gratch's Avatar
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    I'd say love/hate best describes it:
    • I expected in an update adding 3 levels that there would be new shinies that we couldn't have before so there would be stuff to loot and enjoy in the new levels.
    • I didn't expect all my L25EE +8 stat items not to get new values if they were going to rejigger the stats@level ladder for all newly created stuff. They should have just added +9 available at L28 and kept the +7's,8's available on L20+ gear. It would be like telling the Turbine devs that there's a new dev payscale ladder that is 31% higher than any current salaray and btw none of you get raises but don't worry any new hires will be on this new salary ladder. They'd be like: W T F. Then they'd put on their EH black dragon helms and cry.


    • I expected there would be some new named items with new flashy properteis I might want.
    • I didn't expect the named items to have also random properties on some and only 2-3 properties per item and to be about matched by random items I'm pulling on day one. While there are some nice big # properties now... there are no real named items that slot consolidate and not sure that any of the new weapons dps profiles even match some L20 stuff that I have.


    • I expected CitW named items to still have a place on most characters for high DPS.
    • I didn't expect the EE Dream Visor to be worse than L15 random loot. It's like there's a new dev salary scale and we're paying the new devs from Mr. Dream Visor's salary. Sorry about the cut, but taking your pay was the only way to make the new guys have larger than anyone else's salaries.
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    DO NOT DO THIS. We are investigating.

  17. #37
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    They almost have to, the exact named item with the exact known location repeat until "hey this is stupid I'm going outside" or "I got what I wanted I'm going outside" meta-gaming is a business model failure. most MMO's are suffering from it... except the ones where no one knows "where do I get that" and "how many times do I need to repeat the exact same quest to get it". Games like Diablo and Path of Exile for example.

    No matter how players hem and haw the truth is that random loot has an element of unknown and discovery that is completely lacking in DDO. what's more the player base sucks up all the named loot in a couple weeks and moves on, leading to wild swings in population. When player don't know what they are getting they can't say "Okay I've got the good loot, I'm going outside" it promotes running different quests and deemphasizes farming. Assuming the Devs did a good job with XP ransack (to discourage repetition while looking for random loot) and also assuming they can keep from making quests like Impossible demands where you can get a chest 10 times in 15 minutes, and probably with a few more tweaks besides that; they may end up getting people to keep playing between updates, and play more varied content (again conceding that they need to sus out those quests with super easy chests or overly abundant chests with little effort)

    Most sane people do not have fun playing the same quest over and over until ransack and then doing it again a week later. (As an aside they need to make Loot ransack work like quest XP ransack now)

    Now if they could just manage more random/procedural quest layouts and such.
    haven't played Exile and I quit Diablo II and wont touch a Blizzard game until you don't have to reauthorize every 30 days. So I don't know how much Diablo III loots systems have changed...

    Diablo I & II though you farmed the hardest levels for the best loot. That was the Cow level for Diablo II, until you eyes bleed "cow" and Mephisto (?, think that was the Act V boss) until you had him memorized for the same loot. Heck, they had 3rd party programs to do the farming for you because you were looking for the "holy" trinity of items. Diablo I was the same way, clearing the lowest parts of the Cathedral repeatedly.

    The notion that there is no "best" place to farm things is speaking of "denial" as players will always find the "best" min/max places because it is gaming nature.

  18. #38
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    This is the part that concerns me the most about the new random gen stuff. It seems very op vs most named loot of comparable (and sometimes eve higher) level named gear. So we've not only gone from "power creep" to "power leap" but any adjustments they make will likely be accross the board and retroactive... And with storage space seemingly capped, it's extremely difficult to decide what to keep (old or new) and what to toss (again old or new). It just feels unlikely that the current drops are wai in all cases.
    I have one toon who I've always TR'd without getting all his gear in order. I was staring at him after the last update and thinking "should I TR again, or do I need to prep?"

    He went w/o prepping.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbyssalMage View Post
    haven't played Exile and I quit Diablo II and wont touch a Blizzard game until you don't have to reauthorize every 30 days. So I don't know how much Diablo III loots systems have changed...

    Diablo I & II though you farmed the hardest levels for the best loot. That was the Cow level for Diablo II, until you eyes bleed "cow" and Mephisto (?, think that was the Act V boss) until you had him memorized for the same loot. Heck, they had 3rd party programs to do the farming for you because you were looking for the "holy" trinity of items. Diablo I was the same way, clearing the lowest parts of the Cathedral repeatedly.

    The notion that there is no "best" place to farm things is speaking of "denial" as players will always find the "best" min/max places because it is gaming nature.
    Path of Exile defeats this issue by making a grind for maps that open portals to high level randomgen zones the endgame. Nothing exact you can manipulate. Of course, there are a few stages with static entrances and exits that are used to farm levels (then you try to skip as much of the rest of the content as possible).
    "I prefer the term, 'Freelance Wealth Redistribution Specialist'."

  20. #40
    2015 DDO Players Council InsanityIsYourFriend's Avatar
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    I LOVED so many effects, the greatness of looking in the chest to find something epic. Now.... I'm finding the same things over n over n over again. deadly on this and that and accuracy n boo! give me the old system where i could find a Night's Grasp XNX of Blasphemy and I could take it to the pally....



    (okay i ramble too much)

    New loot system: Good things, more bad things
    Old loot system: More good things than bad things
    Old Old loot system: I don't remember it well enough >.<
    I am Falontani, Zeblazing, Zeholysoul, Zeshadowfist, Zesoulhuntah, Zedrunk, Singingblade, and many alts
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    Thanks for the report and Whoa.
    Quote Originally Posted by MajMalphunktion View Post
    This is talked about a ton, and nothing is concrete at this point. Enter bugs with examples. Tons and tons of bugs. Make Gazebo cry.

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