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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jumdace View Post
    Yeah, because having a rotation of 30+ abilities to spam nearly every fight is just so fun and immensely challenging. Your keen ability to memorize and execute the same sequence of key presses to monotonous levels is the epitome of enviable.

    This might be hard for you to fathom, but "more buttons" doesn't automatically mean "more challenge." Personally, I'd much rather have to worry about strategic positioning and movement while executing fewer abilities, versus playing a half-assed version of DDR or "whack-a-mole." I say "half-assed" because, at least with those games, there's a randomized element to make them somewhat entertaining. But hey, if you have fun "playing the keyboard" instead of the actual game, more power to you. Just don't condescend to people simply because you can't understand how transparent that said system is to many of us. Having more buttons to spam, in no way, automatically makes a game more complex; in fact, I could argue the opposite.

    I've been enjoying my time in DDO so far, and I had really planned to get more into it, but if this is what I have to look forward to in the later levels, I may just save myself the trouble and pass. I've already done the button-spamming, cooldown counting, face rolling combat system more times than I care to admit and/or remember, and frankly, I have no desire to do it again. Heck, that was one of the main reasons I had looked to this game in the first place. I was hoping for something more reactionary and strategic--not another garden variety WoW-clone.
    Play Tera online or WoW-likes if that's what you want. Even though you don't realize it, WoW is much more about reacting and positioning than clicking (Dead dps = useless). At least hard modes are like that. DDO is far from that. Much more clicking oriented than positioning from the start. (Strategies involved are kiting and LoS... not that much more)

    My point is that one game is what it is. Adapting to it instead of whining to change it to your likings just doesn't seem to be an option. As much as I understand how "elitist" complaints may be dumb... so are the casual's. I don't "condenscend people" (whatever that means) but I understand what the game is... and play it by it's rules.

    And yes it's hard for me to understand when you chose where the challenges come from. Why would everyone be whining that maximizing your output isn't a challenge otherwise? What is in a game where everything seems easy?

    But yeah... as I knew from the start, I ain't gonna get any sympathy here. I understand.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 08-23-2013 at 10:23 PM.
    Kal Vas Flam... Corp Por... Corp Por

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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theboz View Post
    Your point of view is not valid for the majority or any person that has responded to this post.
    What if those people were wrong and looking for a game that DDO isn't atm? Wait... they are since the game is how it is.
    Kal Vas Flam... Corp Por... Corp Por

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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    What is happening is that DDO is departing from being a "RPG" and moving toward being a FPS. Which is both ironic and a shame since D&D is a Roleplaying Game.

    Why do I say that DDO moving away from being a RPG? Because when I play a fictional character, my character should not be bound by my RL strengths and weaknesses. I do not play FPS games - I don't enjoy twitch-based combat. That doesn't mean that I shouldn't be able to play a monk in a RPG. But in this game that is exactly what it means which means this game already isn't a true RPG. Now it's getting worse.
    This ^

    You've managed to put it in a nutshell!

    Unfortunately DDO can Never be PnP - Some Real Life Strengths and Weaknesses will always be required to play a computer game much to my Chagrin.

    BUT

    The point for the Devs if they're reading this thread is that Real Life Strengths and Weaknesses should be kept to a minimum in-game!

    Mentioned in this thread:

    1) Cleave/Great Cleave - Before the Changes to these abilities my melees never took these feats - I didn't even look at them!
    Mainly because I found Power Attack to be a Curse more than a Blessing so couldn't take Cleave/G.Cleave even if I'd wanted to.

    Since the changes - EVERY SINGLE Melee toon I have has BOTH of these Feats ASAP!

    Paladins = Divine Sac, Cleave, G. Cleave, Exalted Smite, Sunder, Trip, Intimidate, Lay on Hands, Cure Spell, Turn Undead.
    Main Bar FULL!

    2) Haste Boost - I still take this at every opportunity.
    However I use it rarely!
    Haste Boost is actually at it's best when NO CLICKIES are used!

    3) Monks and Finishing Moves = Aaaaargh
    I love my Monks!
    I really do!
    They're all Shintos.
    However...I do have issues with the sheer number of clickie abilities they seem to be required to have when reading these forums.

    My Main Bar at Low Levels = Fire, Light, Air, Stunning Fist {Once I have it}, Sunder, Trip, Earth, Water, Cure Pots, Finishing Move.
    Frankly I rarely touch anything other than 1,2,1 - 2,2,2 - 3,2,3 - 4 and Click Finishing Move with Mouse!

    At Higher Levels - Sunder, Trip, Water, Earth, Cure Pots ALL get Replaced with the likes of:

    QP, Dismissal, Tomb of Jade etc. etc. etc.

    Then we get Epic Abilities too!

    It's too much, It really is!



    For Azardoze and Karavek - OK I'll Bite:

    Take a look at the above...
    And tell me...
    Do you still believe I WON'T use Clickies?

    I just feel that DDO is taking things too far and the number of people in this thread advocating BUYING Expensive Equipment just to play this game Proves My Point!

    Look - My Left Hand can easily reach 1-4 while playing this game so those are where I put my main Clickies.
    On some characters I have to push that to 5 which I find quite hard actually.

    I put certain other stuff at #9 and 10 for ease of Mouse Access.

    My Casters {Especially Divines} have 8-10 Bars open at all times!
    However:
    The Vast Majority of stuff on those Bars is either Long Term {Usually Extended} Buffs that I only need to cycle thru Once or possibly Twice Per quest {Dependant on Number of Shrines in Quest obviously}
    OR
    Cures/DPS

    BTW Karavek - I would love to know why you think consigning each level of Spells to a SINGLE Bar is a good idea?
    My Buffs are on 2 Bars - Single Person Buffs, Mass Buffs, Short Term Mass Buffs!

    My Main Bar for a Cleric is usually set up with Divine Favour, Divine Power, Recitation, Radiant Burst, Heal, Heal Mass, 2 DPS Spells {BB, DP}, Raise Dead or Resurrection and Turn Undead!
    Aura seems to have disappeared from Enhancements BUT It used to take a Spot on the Main Bar too!

    Other DPS Spells are moved to another Bar where I can find them easily - Placing them on Level Gated Bars would NOT be easy to find at all!

    I have Yet another Bar for Curatives like Resto, Rem, Curse etc.
    Another for the rest of my Cure Spells!
    And Another for Spells like Word of Recall.
    Then there's all the Gear that needs to be on Bars for Swap-Ins and Pots and Wands and Scrolls.


    On a Wizard things are similar - Though Haste, Rage, Displacement get put on my Buff Bar rather than Main Bar.
    Main Bar is Pure DPS!
    {OK..Maybe a CC spell or two}.


    I Still Enjoy Playing DDO BUT I'm simply warning the Devs that it's moving along a path atm that's gonna lead to people like myself no longer able to keep up.
    I've been playing virtually every day for 3+ years - I'm addicted to DDO - I have no intentions of EVER Leaving!
    However...Newbies Don't have my Addiction to cope with! - If they find they can't play the game without Buying Expensive Keyboards/Mice/Joypads they aren't gonna stay!


    Oh and WHERE'S RADIANT AURA GONE?

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    The point for the Devs if they're reading this thread is that Real Life Strengths and Weaknesses should be kept to a minimum in-game!
    This discourages me to go any further. But that's just me I guess.

    There's casual for you... maybe?
    Kal Vas Flam... Corp Por... Corp Por

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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoner81 View Post
    I thought this sort of macro making app was not allowed in DDO?

    Stoner81.
    Devs say it's okay to make scripts of hotkeys, since you're still sitting in front of your computer and playing DDO.

    If you somehow made a bot program that literally played the game for you, turning your character into a hireling or something, that's against the rules.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    This discourages me to go any further. But that's just me I guess.

    There's casual for you... maybe?
    Why should we have to play at a lower level? Do you not understand the concept that in a Roleplaying Game the character should not be connected to the player? If you play a Ninja should you in RL have to have Martial Art training?

    I honestly don't understand why people don't get this.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Oh and WHERE'S RADIANT AURA GONE?
    This is the second time I've seen this question. If you mean in the tree, it is at the very top left of the Radiant Servant tree (Positive Energy Aura). If you mean that it doesn't work, I hadn't heard that.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Why should we have to play at a lower level? Do you not understand the concept that in a Roleplaying Game the character should not be connected to the player? If you play a Ninja should you in RL have to have Martial Art training?

    I honestly don't understand why people don't get this.
    What I understand is that if you're not willing to use every tools at your disposal, well then "lower" levels matter. I obviously don't understand your roleplaying game concept since what I see is a MMO trying to suit different kind of players so it can manage to make enought money to expend itself and stay alive. Attracting only casuals with one arm isn't the way to go.

    You can try as hard as you want... but keyboard, mouse or observation (watching CDs) skills cannot be compared to stuff like "martial art training". But have fun trying to make anyone swallow that this comparison makes sense. We all have two hands, eyes and a brain. Or at least most people do.
    Kal Vas Flam... Corp Por... Corp Por

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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    What I understand is that if you're not willing to use every tools at your disposal, well then "lower" levels matter. I obviously don't understand your roleplaying game concept since what I see is a MMO trying to suit different kind of players so it can manage to make enought money to expend itself and stay alive. Attracting only casuals with one arm isn't the way to go.

    You can try as hard as you want... but keyboard, mouse or observation (watching CDs) skills cannot be compared to stuff like "martial art training". But have fun trying to make anyone swallow that this comparison makes sense. We all have two hands, eyes and a brain. Or at least most people do.
    Just curious: have you ever played a Tabletop (or PnP) Roleplaying game? I'm not trying to dis anyone, but if you haven't played a REAL roleplaying game then of course you don't understand the issue. If your only gaming experience is electronic, then skill with the interface is much more important than actual Roleplaying.

    Its interesting that you judge people who don't want to play the way you do as "casual"...

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Just curious: have you ever played a Tabletop (or PnP) Roleplaying game? I'm not trying to dis anyone, but if you haven't played a REAL roleplaying game then of course you don't understand the issue. If your only gaming experience is electronic, then skill with the interface is much more important than actual Roleplaying.

    Its interesting that you judge people who don't want to play the way you do as "casual"...
    Never really got into DnD (I tried) but played Vampire and White Wolf enought to understand. What I learned is that it has pretty much nothing to do with a computer game. So why try to make it or hope it'll be the same? Here, our creative talking/thinking doesn't matter at all.

    It's not judging people, it's making them understand that if you don't wanna try harder and use the tools at your disposal... well then those difficulties are there for you. You can go on and try to make me look like a bad guy but fact is, i'm not that kind of person. I just played many single/multi player games and I know what they resolve to. I also know that some people prefer the easy way while some don't. It's one thing to enjoy easy... but in a game where everyone has to be pleased, it's just being selfish to hope the game will be shaped around it.

    Special emphasis on: "If your only gaming experience is electronic, then skill with the interface is much more important than actual Roleplaying."

    Well... this is an electronic game so I guess roleplaying just can't be the most important factor, right?
    Kal Vas Flam... Corp Por... Corp Por

    ...And then there was silence

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    Never really got into DnD (I tried) but played Vampire and White Wolf enought to understand. What I learned is that it has pretty much nothing to do with a computer game. So why try to make it or hope it'll be the same? Here, our creative talking/thinking doesn't matter at all.

    It's not judging people, it's making them understand that if you don't wanna try harder and use the tools at your disposal... well then those difficulties are there for you. You can go on and try to make me look like a bad guy but fact is, i'm not that kind of person. I just played many single/multi player games and I know what they resolve to. I also know that some people prefer the easy way while some don't. It's one thing to enjoy easy... but in a game where everyone has to be pleased, it's just being selfish to hope the game will be shaped around it.

    Special emphasis on: "If your only gaming experience is electronic, then skill with the interface is much more important than actual Roleplaying."

    Well... this is an electronic game so I guess roleplaying just can't be the most important factor, right?
    Back before GUI existed, there were computer Roleplaying Games. In those games people typed their actions in a text-based interface. As you can imagine, speed was a null factor in those games. As user interfaces became more sophisticated, more speedy responses in any game became possible. But until recently, "twitch" responses in RPGs were non-existent. So those of us who have been gaming for a fair amount of time can tell you that the speed with which you respond to a game has been a non-issue in computer-based RPGs until recently. What we are wondering is why it should be an issue at all? What does my personal reaction speed have to do with my character's reaction speed?

    Again, I don't mean to dis anyone but maybe those who have always had the faster UI just don't understand the issue. I apparently can understand why you would have a hard time understanding our POV. I find it unfortunate that you are apparently unable to understand ours.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Back before GUI existed, there were computer Roleplaying Games. In those games people typed their actions in a text-based interface. As you can imagine, speed was a null factor in those games. As user interfaces became more sophisticated, more speedy responses in any game became possible. But until recently, "twitch" responses in RPGs were non-existent. So those of us who have been gaming for a fair amount of time can tell you that the speed with which you respond to a game has been a non-issue in computer-based RPGs until recently. What we are wondering is why it should be an issue at all? What does my personal reaction speed have to do with my character's reaction speed?

    Again, I don't mean to dis anyone but maybe those who have always had the faster UI just don't understand the issue. I apparently can understand why you would have a hard time understanding our POV. I find it unfortunate that you are apparently unable to understand ours.
    Again... it's not that I don't understand your point of view. It's more in the line that I understand what this one game is: a fast paced action MMO when it comes to combat. Living in the past won't change that.

    Knowing what I got into, I wasn't there to change anyone's opinion but more so to offer mine. So I guess we gotta say that we'll never agree, perhaps because of our backgrounds, perhaps because of how we see this game.

    I guess i'm just sick and tired of games being dumbed down because of people complaining when there are different difficulty levels available to suit them if they're not willing to try. Anway... I've said what I wanted to say on this subject and I don't master enought english words to re-explain myself in any other way.

    Edit: I'm now wondering if my signature has something to do with this... but it doesn't reflect the year I was born. I also grew up with both RPGs like DnD and text based computer games.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 08-24-2013 at 01:14 AM.
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    I guess i'm just sick and tired of games being dumbed down because of people complaining when there are different difficulty levels available to suit them if they're not willing to try.
    Dumbed down?

    We just don't feel it's fun to watch cooldown timers instead of the game, and to develop carpal tunnel instead of getting to appreciate the plot and graphics of the quest.

    I don't see anyone here wanting the game dumbed down - we just want to dial the click-spam a little back to where we were a few days ago.

    Positioning, using the right tools for the right battle, building and gearing a character - these are good elements. Watching cooldowns on hotbars instead of watching the game... that's not a good RPG, that's a good FPS. Some of us are still hoping that DDO will remain a RPG.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    Dumbed down?

    We just don't feel it's fun to watch cooldown timers instead of the game, and to develop carpal tunnel instead of getting to appreciate the plot and graphics of the quest.

    I don't see anyone here wanting the game dumbed down - we just want to dial the click-spam a little back to where we were a few days ago.

    Positioning, using the right tools for the right battle, building and gearing a character - these are good elements. Watching cooldowns on hotbars instead of watching the game... that's not a good RPG, that's a good FPS. Some of us are still hoping that DDO will remain a RPG.
    Stand back a bit from your screen and you won't need to put that much attention to cooldowns, you'll just see them at the same time as you can see the graphics. Remember though, those graphics you're seeing will be the same again and again. This is not a 40-60 hours game then your done. It's a MMO which shouldn't be focused on graphics only.

    Also, positioning and using the right tools for the right battle is what I was reffering to. But I meant the tools that are available in game, not only the one that I/you wanna use, excluding the ones that seem to be too hard to click on. All of em. Auto-Attack is awesome right? So is building/gearing a char without playing the game.

    But yeah, you win. I hope you're (not you personally) crusade leading to change the game ends up fruitful. May your own definition of a good RPG be the one's everyone sign to.

    Unless you're willing to use every tools at your disposal, I don't see how you don't want the game to be dumbed down in some ways. Or at least the characters themselves.
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    Dumbed down?

    We just don't feel it's fun to watch cooldown timers instead of the game, and to develop carpal tunnel instead of getting to appreciate the plot and graphics of the quest.

    I don't see anyone here wanting the game dumbed down - we just want to dial the click-spam a little back to where we were a few days ago.

    Positioning, using the right tools for the right battle, building and gearing a character - these are good elements. Watching cooldowns on hotbars instead of watching the game... that's not a good RPG, that's a good FPS. Some of us are still hoping that DDO will remain a RPG.
    A-freaking-men to this.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    Stand back a bit from your screen and you won't need to put that much attention to cooldowns, you'll just see them at the same time as you can see the graphics. Remember though, those graphics you're seeing will be the same again and again. This is not a 40-60 hours game then your done. It's a MMO which shouldn't be focused on graphics only.

    Also, positioning and using the right tools for the right battle is what I was reffering to. But I meant the tools that are available in game, not only the one that I/you wanna use, excluding the ones that seem to be too hard to click on. All of em. Auto-Attack is awesome right? So is building/gearing a char without playing the game.

    But yeah, you win. I hope you're (not you personally) crusade leading to change the game ends up fruitful. May your own definition of a good RPG be the one's everyone sign to.

    Unless you're willing to use every tools at your disposal, I don't see how you don't want the game to be dumbed down in some ways. Or at least the characters themselves.
    We're just trying to keep it an RPG instead of turning it into a click-fest FPS. It's a question of having outgrown Counterstrike and not appreciating having to go back to playing that in order to play an RPG.

    Watching cooldown timers is simply not fun for a lot of people. In this new game mode I get to watch hotbars instead of the game, and I get to click-spam instead of thinking about what might best work in the current situation. Way back when the cap was 12 this same issue was the reason I stopped playing my cleric - when I was healing quests I did nothing but watch red bars and click-spam healing spells. It wasn't fun then, and it isn't fun now.

    I do not see the fun, or even the challenge, in click-spamming things. It may be a challenge to do it without getting carpal tunnel, but I don't think that's where a game's challenge should be.
    It's definitely an N-word.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    Stand back a bit from your screen and you won't need to put that much attention to cooldowns, you'll just see them at the same time as you can see the graphics. Remember though, those graphics you're seeing will be the same again and again. This is not a 40-60 hours game then your done. It's a MMO which shouldn't be focused on graphics only.

    Also, positioning and using the right tools for the right battle is what I was reffering to. But I meant the tools that are available in game, not only the one that I/you wanna use, excluding the ones that seem to be too hard to click on. All of em. Auto-Attack is awesome right? So is building/gearing a char without playing the game.

    But yeah, you win. I hope you're (not you personally) crusade leading to change the game ends up fruitful. May your own definition of a good RPG be the one's everyone sign to.

    Unless you're willing to use every tools at your disposal, I don't see how you don't want the game to be dumbed down in some ways. Or at least the characters themselves.
    "Without playing the game..." I find that line funny as it's these spam heavy combat systems, and the macros that inevitably develop from them, that ultimately result in a less attentive/involved gaming session--at least in my experience. Just earlier in this thread, someone brought up the "Autohotkey" script editor in response to someone complaining about having too many buttons to manage due to the enhancement change. Is that "playing the game" to you?

    In my opinion, if a combat system is so convoluted and arduous (due to having so many active abilities to manage), that some people actually feel the need to use a scripting program to ease the load, that is resonant of a failure in design. You shouldn't have to play the UI, you should be playing the game. You may disagree, but that's how many of us feel, and it has nothing to do with wanting to "dumb down the game." Like I said earlier, "more buttons =/= more complex."

  18. #78
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    As an avid FPS gamer and every other genre, obviously including RPG's, I object to the idea that DDO is becoming MORE FPS like with the over clicki-fication.

    I would say it bares a closer resemblance to a typing tutor than to an FPS.

    Indeed I can play Tribes: Ascend without needing to pay any attention to resetting cool downs, counters, short duration abilities with long cool downs. This game for those who don't know might have the highest "skill ceiling" of any current FPS, at least is it widely acknowledged as such. It involves jetpacks, and "skiing" down mountains. and shooting things that are often in mid air that are also using Jetpacks and skiing down mountains whilst you are also um... doing that... and trying to aim at where they will be while you are also moving... Oh and did I mention the projectiles have physics (momentum, and inheritance) and only a few of them are hitscan?

    Indeed I am seeing only action and reacting to it in those games, dating all the way back to Doom over 26600 modem and IPX.

    I am quite capable (no seriously I am) of clicking my cleaves/Laywaste/Momentum swing while as the same time healing other party members with both single target heals and mass cures, on three different healers. I am skilled, though I'm certainly not the greatest DDO player, because I take risks with my builds, and I also hate "action boosts" and "many shot" and "implosion" and everything else that is very short duration with a longer cooldown than the "fun part".

    I also hate stairing at momentum swing and lay waste to see if they have reset, it's not fun... I can handle it, and i generally find myself just mashing them in a sequence like a bad street fighter II player, going for the exact same combo every time. At least that way I can see peoples health bars (yes I occasionally lose a patient because I do more than heal, and yes I back off and only heal when the challenge or circumstances make that the best idea).

    Point of all this is even good players with years of avid FPS skills don't necessarilly want EVERY CLASS IN THE GAME to be clickie intensive. I'd like to see an OPTION to string cleaves along in the attack chain (execute them on left click automatically when off cooldown.

    I'd also love to see Turbine re-think cooldowns for melee... I'd love to see a "Combat stamina" bar that works like Ki but governs tacticals, and cleaves and etc. instead of 10 different cooldowns have the stamina bar lower as you spam, if you pace your uses out it slowly regens and keeps up, but if you spam stuff (approximately faster than the current cool downs) then you run out sooner and have to let it regen some. Then at least you're only watching ONE thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    I'd like to see an OPTION to string cleaves along in the attack chain (execute them on left click automatically when off cooldown.
    /signed

    Oh, please. Less micromanaging, more gaming. Please.
    It's definitely an N-word.

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    The reason for transformation "from an RPG to an FPS" is pretty obvious: the only interactions between player and "dungeon master" here are mouse and keyboard, so that's the only way to introduce variety and/or some semblance of difficulty.

    You can't compare DDO to P&P because there's no human DM to provide challenge. No matter how many quests Turbine puts in, players will memorize them within a few days and then there is no "role playing" anyway -- it's all meta knowledge. Nobody plays P&P that way.

    In other words -- DDO is only a "role playing game" for most people for their first few weeks (if that).

    Melees are already much easier to play than arcanes and divines, the only exception being staying alive. I think the trade-off of active gameplay (pressing buttons) yielding more DPS is reasonable. Otherwise, everyone is just going to be cookie-cutter walking death machines.

    And if you really hate active abilities that much, you do have other build options.

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