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  1. #21
    Community Member 96th_Malice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I think "doing a bunch more damage" is a good enough reason..
    If I'm close enough to melee it ..... It's close enough to melee me

    No thanks ... I'll stay at the back !
    " Elize Ryd - Officer @ Band of Gypsys "


    " Trapped in my skin - See the nexus in my dreams - But will you bury me within? "

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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I think "doing a bunch more damage" is a good enough reason.

    Though with 6000 point slayer arrows every 20 seconds I'm not sure.
    Post U19, the introduction of various click shots has made a pure ranged ranger more viable. I cycle through a Shattermantle, Dispelling, Sniper, Slaying rotation which is relatively mana neutral with Soul Magic. I could add more named shots like Inferno or Aimed but I find using just those 4 used in conjunction with Adrenaline make for a no-time-wasted rotation. Mind you I am doing it with both Manyshot and 10K stars, so the fact remains that a Monkcher still outpaces a pure ranged Ranger.

  3. #23

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    Returning player question: In which enhancement tree would I find 10k stars now? Seems I missed it when redoing my enhancements...

  4. #24
    Community Member Limey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meowinisnotallowed View Post
    Returning player question: In which enhancement tree would I find 10k stars now? Seems I missed it when redoing my enhancements...
    It is now a feat for which you need 6 levels of monk to take.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alfhild View Post
    Mind you I am doing it with both Manyshot and 10K stars, so the fact remains that a Monkcher still outpaces a pure ranged Ranger.
    I don't think anyone who knows anything about DDO would dispute that, but I believe he was refering to Pure 20 rangers who pew-pew 100% of the time.

  6. #26
    Community Member SiliconShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alfhild View Post
    Post U19, the introduction of various click shots has made a pure ranged ranger more viable. I cycle through a Shattermantle, Dispelling, Sniper, Slaying rotation which is relatively mana neutral with Soul Magic. I could add more named shots like Inferno or Aimed but I find using just those 4 used in conjunction with Adrenaline make for a no-time-wasted rotation. Mind you I am doing it with both Manyshot and 10K stars, so the fact remains that a Monkcher still outpaces a pure ranged Ranger.
    Can I ask you what your monchers to hit and damage modification is on a longbow?

    With the capstone being so sexy and the ability and it almost being pointless to have double shot on a moncher if the damage mods are too poor and the to hit too low for EE content ACs then I'm just going to stay pure.

    Thrill of the hunter and Killer from DWS, haste boost, saves, item defence and dodge from tempest, I feel moncher may fall behind in base damage, to hit and not be gaining all that much on attack speed with 10k stars.

    I'm also tempted to try out a fighter variation and try keen out instead of slayer arrow, I think the average damage over a many shot will out weigh the dps of slayer arrows when perhaps coupled with dreadnought.

    15~20 x3 and 19~20 x4 with a massive base damage, advancing blows using pinion sounds appealing if it works.

    Those are pros and cons of pure vs various flavour builds as I see it.
    "(Party): [Party] Mislabeled: you were killed by Qrazydirections"

  7. #27
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I think "doing a bunch more damage" is a good enough reason.

    Though with 6000 point slayer arrows every 20 seconds I'm not sure.
    Yeah, but you'd disagree with me no matter what I said, based in principle.

    It's your ready pen of trollish expression.

    Honestly, I think this bromanc thing we have going is on the wane. It's not you...it's me...

  8. #28
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    So how much double-shot can a pure ranger put out while using a pinion (as opposed to a weaker bow that has more double-shot built in)? Maybe it is possible to get more arrows in the air in a two minute period of time.

    Monkcher have other stuff going for them: bonus feats, improved evasion, faster run speed, earth stance, etc . . . that make the character strong. it's not just 10k Stars it's the power that comes from a pay to play class.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridge_Dweller View Post
    So how much double-shot can a pure ranger put out while using a pinion (as opposed to a weaker bow that has more double-shot built in)? Maybe it is possible to get more arrows in the air in a two minute period of time.
    The problem with Doubleshot as a whole is that everytime you use 10K Stars or Manyshot, you invoke a -100 Doubleshot debuff which extends well beyond your use of those two skills. For Manyshot it's 70 secs, for 10K it's 45 secs. So even if a pure Ranger were to get +50% doubleshot, it would only be operable for the last 50 seconds of every 2 minute period.

  10. #30
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    [QUOTE=SiliconShadow;5081198]Can I ask you what your monchers to hit and damage modification is on a longbow?[quote]
    Not in game at the moment but realize that there is going to be very little difference in to hit between a monkcher and a pure ranger. Bow to hit is still DEX based and though a pure Ranger has higher BAB, there are plenty of sources of to hit (e.g. Elf Racial tree) to render the point moot. In terms of Damage, yes you will have better damage if STR based than a DEX based Monkcher. But a STR based Monkcher will have better damage than a DEX based Ranger. If both STR based or both DEX based, the damage is relatively equal.
    With the capstone being so sexy and the ability and it almost being pointless to have double shot on a moncher if the damage mods are too poor and the to hit too low for EE content ACs then I'm just going to stay pure.
    Are you referring to the AA Ranger capstone? If so, I consider it far from sexy. In fact I consider it a slap in the face to L20 AA rangers since doubleshot only works for 50secs out of 120 the moment the Ranger hits Manyshot. The reason I consider doubleshot pointless on a Monkcher is that it only works for 15 seconds every two minutes.

    Thrill of the hunter and Killer from DWS, haste boost, saves, item defence and dodge from tempest,
    6 APs in Thrill of the hunt gives +3 Damage on mobs under 35% health. So essentially it gives an overall +1 damage against that mob, and lingers a bit for the next mob.
    Killer gives bonuses to doubleshot which are rendered useless for 70second out of every 120 seconds since you will be using Manyshot, Since most of your kills will come during Manyshot, Killer's usefulness is even less in a ranged context.
    No comment on item defence .
    Monkchers get dodge bonus and cap raises and Reflex saves as well as Tempest.
    Monkchers with no fighter levels can get 30% Damage boost from DWS; those with fighter can get the cheaper Haste boost.
    I feel moncher may fall behind in base damage, to hit and not be gaining all that much on attack speed with 10k stars.
    huge.
    As if said, very little difference in damage between the two if using the same damage source, be it DEX or STR. As for ranged attack speed, I think you underestimate the rate of fire on a monkcher and overestimate the usefulness of doubleshot on a ranger.


    I'm also tempted to try out a fighter variation and try keen out instead of slayer arrow, I think the average damage over a many shot will out weigh the dps of slayer arrows when perhaps coupled with dreadnought.
    Adrenalined Manyshot in FoTW with Slayer arrows and +[w]Sniper, Dispelling and Shatter shots coupled with high STR is still going to blow it out of the water.

    Those are pros and cons of pure vs various flavour builds as I see it.
    I agree. Where we disagree is with doubleshot which due to current design considerations is a con in more than one sense of the word.

  11. #31
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Great discussion. It would be good to see an actual U19 Pure Range Ranger build with stats, enhancements, etc as well as a link to U19 Monkcher. It would be nice to see/compare Dex vs Str version to compare damage as well as pros/cons (Reflex saves, etc).

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodoze View Post
    Great discussion. It would be good to see an actual U19 Pure Range Ranger build with stats, enhancements, etc as well as a link to U19 Monkcher. It would be nice to see/compare Dex vs Str version to compare damage as well as pros/cons (Reflex saves, etc).
    I am still tinkering with my own build at the moment and would be glad to post it once the those fine folks working on the new rjcyberware planner get it published. I think the lack of a planner incorporating U19 is the reason you are seeing hardly any builds being posted at the moment.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alfhild View Post
    The problem with Doubleshot as a whole is that everytime you use 10K Stars or Manyshot, you invoke a -100 Doubleshot debuff which extends well beyond your use of those two skills. For Manyshot it's 70 secs, for 10K it's 45 secs. So even if a pure Ranger were to get +50% doubleshot, it would only be operable for the last 50 seconds of every 2 minute period.
    Well that's insanely stupid.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridge_Dweller View Post
    Well that's insanely stupid.
    QFT
    I really am astounded that more pure AA Rangers are up in arms, err bows, about this. Considering the T4 and T5 AA cores are worthless over 50% of time (assuming the Ranger religiously uses Manyshot as they should) it really calls into question spending APs on them or on Killer from the DWS tree. You are going to easily build killer up to 4 stacks during Manyshot but will get no benefit from them since it will be difficult to maintain those stacks for the 50 seconds of single shots that the debuff enforces

    Speaking as a Monkcher,I get that they need to limit the DPS on monkchers by not giving it any further buffage, but that could have easily been accomplished by setting the 10K star doubleshot debuff to 60 seconds and limiting the Manyshot debuff to 20 secs.

  15. #35
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alfhild View Post
    The problem with Doubleshot as a whole is that everytime you use 10K Stars or Manyshot, you invoke a -100 Doubleshot debuff which extends well beyond your use of those two skills. For Manyshot it's 70 secs, for 10K it's 45 secs. So even if a pure Ranger were to get +50% doubleshot, it would only be operable for the last 50 seconds of every 2 minute period.
    Hmm I am not sure these numbers are accurate, but I can not find the actual numbers. 10k stars is actual a longer period then manyshot because 10k stars is 30 seconds and manyshot is 20 seconds and the doubleshot cooldown for both was the same I thought.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Hmm I am not sure these numbers are accurate, but I can not find the actual numbers. 10k stars is actual a longer period then manyshot because 10k stars is 30 seconds and manyshot is 20 seconds and the doubleshot cooldown for both was the same I thought.
    Check your 10K stars and Manyshot tooltips.

  17. #37
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alfhild View Post
    Check your 10K stars and Manyshot tooltips.
    Hmm wonder if this got changed since Lammania.

    Well the fact is rangers have a higher base damage then a monkcher (on favored enemies) and now with doubleshot and archer's focus not working while 10k stars happens the ranged damage is closer between a monkcher and ranger. Ranged ranger also does not have to worry about wisdom like a 10k stars archer.

    Like I said in an earlier post there are some other benefits to being a ranger which maybe not be enough to make up the difference in damage, but nonetheless. Like I said stealth on a pure ranger is very intriguing and the capstone for deepwood sniper is interesting as well as some of the higher level core abilities.

    I argued on lammania for more doubleshot % and we may see that in the future with higher % doubleshot items which get a ranged ranger to 100% doubleshot.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  18. #38
    Community Member 96th_Malice's Avatar
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    After a couple days of messing around with a few of my builds ..... The pure ranger AA is great and for sure an improvement from 2 weeks ago

    However ...

    The 10k stars monkcher is now a whole lot of fun to play. I took enough outta the eleven tree to get grace ... Enough outta the AA tree to get the tier 3 paralyzers ... And then took as much as I possibly could to benefit bow use outta deep wood sniper.

    On the training dummy The monk is seeing bigger numbers per arrow than the pure archer .... Not to mention way better AC

    Fun build for sure.
    " Elize Ryd - Officer @ Band of Gypsys "


    " Trapped in my skin - See the nexus in my dreams - But will you bury me within? "

    Amaranthe - The NeXuS

  19. #39
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 96th_Malice View Post
    After a couple days of messing around with a few of my builds ..... The pure ranger AA is great and for sure an improvement from 2 weeks ago

    However ...

    The 10k stars monkcher is now a whole lot of fun to play. I took enough outta the eleven tree to get grace ... Enough outta the AA tree to get the tier 3 paralyzers ... And then took as much as I possibly could to benefit bow use outta deep wood sniper.

    On the training dummy The monk is seeing bigger numbers per arrow than the pure archer .... Not to mention way better AC

    Fun build for sure.
    Very glad to hear. It would be cool if you uploaded screenshots of your Trees for others as well as your class/stat breakdowns...

  20. #40
    Community Member schelsullivan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodoze View Post
    Is that what FotW Adrenalized Arrows of Slaying look like?
    Yes thats the kind of numbers you get with Adrenaline + Slayer. I get 7 Adrenalines per rest by default, but then you add FoTW tier 4 Fury Eternal which procs extra Adrenalines on vorpal rolls and you get to use many more times than 7.

    Note wiki says "Fury Eternal: Passive Bonus: +1 Adrenaline max use. Whenever you land a Vorpal Strike on a melee attack, 33% chance to regain 1 Adrenaline use."

    It says melee attacks but im getting extra adrenalines with ranged attacks too. Sometimes im getting and extra 2-4 adrenalines while manyshooting.

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