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  1. #21
    Community Member Vallar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    This is not what I was asking for thou

    I'd like the entire description from the Combat log: deactivate temporarily the "Incoming: Effects" from your combat chat and then SS again. At the left of the description there shouldn't be the tag "Effects" but rather it should be "(Combat)" .


    Hope that help
    I am the architect of my own destruction...

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  2. #22
    Hero JOTMON's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neoxxz View Post
    Earth and Air are mutually exclusive.

    Air gives you Knockdown Immunity and Wind Dance, which are enormously powerful, especially if you plan on running EE content.
    I do like Air and my WF sorc is still Air specc'd..., but ..the knockdown Immunity is not really an Immunity..
    The text should really be changed to Knockdown Resistance..some Epic Mobs and effects still knock you down.. apparently this is WAI..

    The stun from electrical is nice and the dots for air ice are still pretty effective.

    Personaly I feel all in all the Ice/Earth Savants are more powerful than Air Savants
    Air Savants dont get a elemental AOE tick damager like Firewall, ice storm, acid rain..
    They can still use them they just dont work with Air Savants as well...
    ....although gust of wind does take care of any party member's annoying AOE spells.....

    Earth Savants dont really have a decent strike spell, like ploar ray or lighning bolt, so for a mobile mob who doest stay in a cloud Earth savants are more limited in burst damage, Black dragon bolt is alright, but nowhere near as effective as Polar Ray.


    The downside for all WF is all the elemental forms screw WF out of being able to repair..
    Apparently taking the form makes you living and no longer a construct... you can be healed as if you were living...
    At this point being in form makes Healers friend enhancements worthless and so are all your repair spells/scrolls/pots.
    Sor for any WF who want to take form...Stock up on Heal scrolls and cure pots, you are effectively fleshie now...
    Last edited by JOTMON; 09-09-2013 at 08:21 AM.
    Jotmon - Let's not forget why we play these games - to have fun - ~
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    Update 24: Champions... "whew, it's ok, it's only a red name" .. sad day when trash spawn Champions and their one-shot ignore fort attacks instill more party fear than the Red named bosses.

  3. #23
    Hero JOTMON's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neoxxz View Post
    You don't NEED Knockdown Immunity.

    You don't NEED Displacement.

    You don't NEED Dodge.

    You don't NEED astronomical saves or a ton of hit points.

    BUT all these things collectively increase the margin for error and, ultimately, staying power.
    True, you dont need anything. for epic Casual, Normal or even Hard..or running quests 10 levels below your current level.
    but if you want to be effective and a postive contributor to a party or solo, every additional piece makes you more survivable and useful.
    ..being dead is not useful..


    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    This is something a new player should read and then remember as the "things that don't make any sense". Ignore the text in the quote. It is dead wrong.
    All you really NEED is a party member with backpack space..to carry your soulstone to the end so you can loot the chest and pike your way to level cap.
    Jotmon - Let's not forget why we play these games - to have fun - ~
    Guild: Degenerate Matter - 200 (Former Guilds: ChaosKnights, Big Damn Heroes, Shadowfiends, Order of the Drow, Unusual Suspects, Raided R)
    Argo-Jotmon(Completionist - before the Otto's/XP pots easymode), Jotmonheals(Clr17/Rog2/Mnk1-Epic Completionist), Whatthetruck.. and many many more alts..

    Update 24: Champions... "whew, it's ok, it's only a red name" .. sad day when trash spawn Champions and their one-shot ignore fort attacks instill more party fear than the Red named bosses.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by red_cardinal View Post
    Why would 'so many mobs' be immune to fire? Which are those mobs? If you're thinking endgame to be a few devils in the Vale and Shavarath pack, then you're stuck in 2010. End game is mostly living things and none of it as of now is immune to fire. Maybe here and there there's a fire elemental.

    Fire is viable for epic content. You just need your Evocation DCs high enough so that mobs don't save and you don't get half of damage.
    ^^

    So many people read what one person says on the forum and take it for gospel. This seems like the same thing as the whole 10k stars and Manyhot sharing the same cooldown. Don't believe everything you read, and especially do not attempt to pass this information on to others without personally testing said theory. It leads to mass confusion. But anyways here is the skinny...in my own personal experience....


    Fire is "THE BEST DPS SAVANT IN CURRENT END GAME". Best AoE DoT, Best Single Target DPS. Best AoE Instant Damage and synergizes well with Shirardi if don't have the DCs for Meteor Swarm, DB Fireball, Fireball and Wall of Fire.

    What Air gets you is 2nd best DPS Savant and somewhat immunity to knockdown.

    Water = best low DC savant.

    Earth = good for leveling but falls behind the others because you lose electric caster levels which is the better DoT on bosses for most situations. If only Earthgrab had better use in eE content it might compete as an option.

    My overall impression is that the air savant is becoming less my favored savant due to the fact that the immunity to knockdown appears to only work against air elementals anymore, and with Stormhorns and Wheloon being mostly weak to fire, my next sorc life will be Fire Savant start to finish with emphasis on electric as secondary. Considering I have 2 sorc past lives + access to wizard past life, I am going to do a DI Fire Savant this go around. Shirardi is getting too boring anymore.

  5. #25
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    True, you dont need anything. for epic Casual, Normal or even Hard..or running quests 10 levels below your current level.
    but if you want to be effective and a postive contributor to a party or solo, every additional piece makes you more survivable and useful.
    ..being dead is not useful..

    All you really NEED is a party member with backpack space..to carry your soulstone to the end so you can loot the chest and pike your way to level cap.
    Heh. You seem to have DDO confused with... I don't know. A really really hard game.

    At the end of the day, you do not need any specific thing. You will still reach the end of EE solo if you are a good player (newest content aside). Every bit helps, yes. But no, not required.

  6. #26
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    All you really NEED is a party member with backpack space..to carry your soulstone to the end so you can loot the chest and pike your way to level cap.
    Eheh so true! But, as the person you quoted said, you don't really NEED it, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    Heh. You seem to have DDO confused with... I don't know. A really really hard game.

    At the end of the day, you do not need any specific thing. You will still reach the end of EE solo if you are a good player (newest content aside). Every bit helps, yes. But no, not required.
    Sure. Call us when you solo an EE (newest content included, of course) without Displacement, Dodge or a ton of HP. Need a video of course or we won't believe you



    Btw: I'm curious as to why people think that the Air Savant KD immunity is becoming less efficient. ASAIK, the only thing that trips you is Greater Command and few other rare mobs.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    Eheh so true! But, as the person you quoted said, you don't really NEED it, right?



    Sure. Call us when you solo an EE (newest content included, of course) without Displacement, Dodge or a ton of HP. Need a video of course or we won't believe you



    Btw: I'm curious as to why people think that the Air Savant KD immunity is becoming less efficient. ASAIK, the only thing that trips you is Greater Command and few other rare mobs.
    Any mobs with trip will trip you, greater command throws you to ground, cometfalls will knock you down, giants will knock you down...what else other than air elementals is left to knock you down? You used to be at least immune to everything but greater command prior to eGH.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by jskinner937 View Post
    Any mobs with trip will trip you, greater command throws you to ground, cometfalls will knock you down, giants will knock you down...what else other than air elementals is left to knock you down? You used to be at least immune to everything but greater command prior to eGH.
    I am talking about the non-elemental form of course. But I believe elemental form regardless of savant gives you more immunities....hence air being less useful for the KD Immunity.

  9. #29
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jskinner937 View Post
    Any mobs with trip will trip you, greater command throws you to ground, cometfalls will knock you down, giants will knock you down...what else other than air elementals is left to knock you down? You used to be at least immune to everything but greater command prior to eGH.
    No. You are just encountering a bug. Sometimes, upon log-in, some of the immunities that you should get are not properly loaded.

    Trip still doesn't trip you, same for cometfall, Air ellies and giants KD. Greater command is the only thing in the current end-game that trips you down and that can be stopped with Protection from Evil.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rys View Post
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    No. You are just encountering a bug. Sometimes, upon log-in, some of the immunities that you should get are not properly loaded.

    Trip still doesn't trip you, same for cometfall, Air ellies and giants KD. Greater command is the only thing in the current end-game that trips you down and that can be stopped with Protection from Evil.
    This is a known issue...its not WAI. If you don't believe me go into EE ID and let her priestess spam cometfalls on you. Sure if you are a pally splash you will save a lot, but you will not be immune guarantee logging in or not.

    And as far a prot from evil, I think only the spell is working as items and ship buffs have not prevented for awhile...another known issue. And giant knockdown can only be prevented if you are blocking.

  11. #31
    Community Member Saravis's Avatar
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    I found Earth Savant to be the slowest DPS of the bunch. It's mostly DoT style damage, so you have to wait for the spell to run its course. This becomes especially an issue when running in a group, where players are trying to kill mobs quickly and a lot of the damage gets wasted. The DPS can be good, but just too slow for my tastes.

  12. #32
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jskinner937 View Post
    This is a known issue...its not WAI. If you don't believe me go into EE ID and let her priestess spam cometfalls on you. Sure if you are a pally splash you will save a lot, but you will not be immune guarantee logging in or not.

    And as far a prot from evil, I think only the spell is working as items and ship buffs have not prevented for awhile...another known issue. And giant knockdown can only be prevented if you are blocking.
    I only run EEs. Cometfalls and giants don't knock you down. Stop. If they do, relog.

    Don't care about the items of the ship buff. They are useless. Just cast the spell for 25m of immunity, more than enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rys View Post
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  13. #33
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    Earth savants are viable at endgame if you want to solo EE content. Zonixx on Sarlona, for example, is an Earth Savant who multiboxes and solos EE content scaled up to 6 players. You can see him in action at http://www.twitch.tv/zonixxtv/profile

    For EH/EN content, Earth Savants are slower than other savants. Like other posters have already mentioned, the burst DPS of elec/fire/ice spells are higher than acid spells, so you kill mobs faster, and you don't need to jump around like a rabbit avoiding blows from mobs. Everything fails their saves, so all elec/fire/ice spells have full effect, and dead mobs can't hit you. And Niacs Biting Cold/Eldar's electric surge works much faster to bring down a boss than acid spells. You have too much SP anyway, so the lower SP efficiency of the other savants do not matter.

    But on EE content, especially if you are NOT a completionist and you want to solo it, earth savants shine. Acid spells mostly do not have saving throws (except for the initial tics of acid rain/acid fog etc.), and are more efficient dmg/SP-wise in return for lower burst DPS, doing dmg over time instead. EE mobs have massive hp and massive saves. Other savants will not be able to take them down quickly despite their higher DPS; jumping around is mandatory if you don't want to die. Mobs WILL make their reflex saves, and many have evasion, so many fire/ice/elec spells are going to do half to no dmg, which further brings down their efficiency. And EE final fights are usually limited by the mana pool you have, so SP efficiency is important. NBS/ES are efficient only if you can keep a stack of 3 constantly refreshed on the boss, and that is difficult when there are trash mobs and you have to jump around. Whereas an earth savant just casts an acid fog, and an ice storm, then jumps around in that fog. Most acid spells are fire and forget DoT spells, so you can concentrate on jumping around. It will be slow, but you will complete the EE quest. Earth savants have an advantage in EE content because SP efficiency matters here.

    And earth savants are viable on EN/EH content as well, of course. They will just take longer to complete EN/EH quests compared to other savants.

    And knockdown immunity and abundant step, you can get from epic destinies, if you want. Personally, I take knockdown immunity, but have never found abundant step to be that much use. I jump around well enough without abundant step. And I know earth savants who move around good enough not to even need knockdown immunity.

    The only other savant that can possibly match earth savant in SP efficiency on EE content is the Shiradi fire savant with 2 levels of FvS for Just Rewards AoV enhancement, only made recently possible from the enhancement pass. AoV enhancements add nicely to fire crit chance and Shiradi force dmg, and Just Rewards possibly allows unlimited spamming of Scorching Ray SLA without depleting SP pool at all. But this is very new, and Scorching rays will be harder to target while jumping around than just spamming off acid rains and acid fogs. But its an interesting possibility.

    Or you can just team up with some other people for EE content, and let them tank the EE mobs and stretch your SP pool, in which case any savant will do. I play during off-peak hours, so this is not really an option for me, unfortunately.

  14. #34
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timap View Post
    Snip
    There are some serious issue with what you said.

    First of all: the other savants WILL be able to take mobs down MUCH quicker than Earth. Unless you are playing a gimp character.

    EE final fights are limited by spell pool, true. That is true for Earth savants too. I wouldn't take Zonixxx as an example as I think you've probably seen how many pots he has and use in EE quests. And he doesn't solo FYI. He also uses various exploits. And btw: the quests are not scaled because he logs off every char .

    NBS/ES are efficient "only if you can keep a stack of 3 refreshed and that is difficult". No, that is not unless you don't know how to play. You meantion acid rain but you know that it is no different from Wall of Fire right? Same initial tic, same ref save, same dmg. Acid fog is even worse: no initial tic and you have to stay in it to deal damage = you will have to kite in a very small area with mobs following you = not a good spell.

    If you are Earth, you are probably a WF. WF = tons of Reconstruct wasted just to self-heal = even less sp to deal damage.

    KD immunity and Abundant step: how do you get KD immunity? Using GMoF? Lol. And abundant step? How? You mean the flyby attack of DI? Or you do you use Exalted Angel? Cmon, don't kid us. Flyby has a CD of 1 min, it's nowhere near good as wings. Then, you state that you jump around enough and then you say you don't need wings? They improve your survavibility by a lot. And you don't "need KD immunity because you move around good enough" is just bs. You won't be able to move enough to dodge Improved trips, cometfall, giants KD etc. What ff you are crippled? You are going to be dead.
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    There are some serious issue with what you said.

    First of all: the other savants WILL be able to take mobs down MUCH quicker than Earth. Unless you are playing a gimp character.

    EE final fights are limited by spell pool, true. That is true for Earth savants too. I wouldn't take Zonixxx as an example as I think you've probably seen how many pots he has and use in EE quests. And he doesn't solo FYI. He also uses various exploits. And btw: the quests are not scaled because he logs off every char .

    NBS/ES are efficient "only if you can keep a stack of 3 refreshed and that is difficult". No, that is not unless you don't know how to play. You meantion acid rain but you know that it is no different from Wall of Fire right? Same initial tic, same ref save, same dmg. Acid fog is even worse: no initial tic and you have to stay in it to deal damage = you will have to kite in a very small area with mobs following you = not a good spell.

    If you are Earth, you are probably a WF. WF = tons of Reconstruct wasted just to self-heal = even less sp to deal damage.

    KD immunity and Abundant step: how do you get KD immunity? Using GMoF? Lol. And abundant step? How? You mean the flyby attack of DI? Or you do you use Exalted Angel? Cmon, don't kid us. Flyby has a CD of 1 min, it's nowhere near good as wings. Then, you state that you jump around enough and then you say you don't need wings? They improve your survavibility by a lot. And you don't "need KD immunity because you move around good enough" is just bs. You won't be able to move enough to dodge Improved trips, cometfall, giants KD etc. What ff you are crippled? You are going to be dead.
    I don't mean for this thread to devolve into a "my savant is better than your savant" thread. I only spoke up because it seems like no one is speaking up on behalf of the earth savants, possibly because most earth savants are loners/soloers. Indeed, I think that for much of the end game content, any savant will do, especially if you play in parties.

    I concede your central point, which is that earth savants has the lowest DPS of the savant. The most effective way to avoid dmg is to kill mobs fast. If you have high DPS, you will be welcome in most groups, since you will complete quests faster. Under specialized situations (typically solo EE, or solo raids) where bringing down a mob fast is not a realistic option, and you have to tough it out, earth savants have an edge. Earth savants are tougher, because they can afford to put some points into Constitution and away from Charisma, since most of their spells are not DC-based. To play like this, you need to be WF for Reconstruct self-healing, and a pally splash is mandatory, since you will need to succeed on every saving throw.

    EE final fights are indeed limited by SP pool. And all sorcs will need to drink SP pots at these end fights. This is why its not necessary to have a high Charisma at these fights. You WILL run out of SP, so really, the effective SP pool you have is limited by pot use. Other savants NEED to have high Cha so that mobs don't save against their spells. Acid spells are not DC-based, so it doesn't matter. In fact, Cha is mainly for the saving throw bonuses rather than SP pool for earth savants.

    Will Earth savants drink less pots than other savants? Hard to say, because as Wizza pointed out, you will use up SP to reconstruct. The less DPS you have, the more time you spend jumping around, the more you will need to reconstruct due to the occasional hit. But the more important factor for me is the fragility aspect. A pure sorc savant often cannot take more than 2 hits before he's dead in EE end fights. You can realistically end up with a HP in the 800-900 mark with an earth savant, and can take 3-4 hits if you have some PRR. Even with a knockdown, there is a reasonable chance you'll stand up and reconstruct before you die. I find that an earth savant can more reliably solo EE end fights. You CAN solo with another savant, but it gets dicey. And the longer the fight, and the more trash mobs there are around, the more difficult the fight becomes for other savants, because the longer the time and the larger the number of moving parts, the more likely something will go wrong.

    Now some comments about spells as an ES. Melf's Magic arrow is, of course, the only tier 2/3 savant SLA that has no save, and should be the go-to spell of an earth savant. The procs over time increases the chances that you'll get a +3SP back from your enhancement, and also Shiradi procs. Acid rain is not comparable to Wall of Fire/Ice storm, because its only 8s long while the others are 30s long. Its more of a slow-acting Fireball without the saving throw. Cloudkill is comparable to Wall of Fire/Ice storm in AoE, except that its 80s long rather than 30s long. If you can kite stuff throw Wall of Fire, you can kite through Cloudkill. The dmg is less, but its better dmg/SP. Unfortunately, the Con dmg doesn't apply to EE mobs. Finally, Acid Fog is the spell that shines. It has a large AoE, about 3-4 times that of Cloudkill, and applies 20% concealment, and lasts for 80s. 1-2 Acid Fogs should give plenty of room for kiting. No other damage spell lasts that long, or has that large an AoE. Incendiary Cloud comes close, but lasts only 30s. One tactic is to cast Acid Fog, then Ice storm within the fog to slow mobs down, and watch the Shiradi procs pile up. Acid Fog/Solid Fog then Acid Blast is another combo that works.

    Now some comments on EDs. Draconic works. Shiradi also complements well since the procs are also not DC-based, and acid spells tend to hit many times for small amounts of damage. The Unyielding Sentinel Paladin ED is also surprisingly useful, especially against melee-based mobs that like to trip/knockdown you. Endless Lay on Hands is worth a twist to get a no-penalty no-fail instantaneous heal that regenerates over time. To most other builds, time is the enemy, but time is a friend to the ES.

    If another earth savant would like to comment on playstyle, tactics or situations where an Earth savant will work, please chime in. I don't want to be the lone voice here.

    Let the earth savant bashing continue after this brief interlude.

  16. #36
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    This is something a new player should read and then remember as the "things that don't make any sense". Ignore the text in the quote. It is dead wrong.
    Actually, any ultimatum including this one is normally very wrong, and the one Wizza quoted is actually correct (almost).

    You don't need any of those things, but they are darn handy.

    You DO need hit points if you are going to survive EE content.

    Should a player claim that you *NEED* something, depending on what it is, that player probably needs work on their game playing or find stronger people to play with. Case depending.
    Last edited by Missing_Minds; 09-11-2013 at 01:51 PM.

  17. #37
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timap View Post
    snip
    I'm not bashing earth savants, I just point things out. No time to reply at the moment thou :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    Actually, any ultimatum including this one is normally very wrong, and the one Wizza quoted is actually correct (almost).

    You don't need any of those things, but they are darn handy.

    You DO need hit points if you are going to survive EE content.

    Should a player claim that you *NEED* something, depending on what it is, that player probably needs work on their game playing or find stronger people to play with. Case depending.
    Yeah, no.

    You NEED those things, they are not "darn handy". They are the essential defensive stuff of a caster. You DO NEED both HP and Displacement if you want to survive EE content. There is no story for that. I've playied enough EEs to understand the very basics of it. There is no way in hell a caster should not be displacement 100% time in EEs.

    Sorry but it's not me who needs to work on my game playing. Probably neither you, no idea and don't care, but your point is wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rys View Post
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  18. #38
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Seriously pointless. Maybe earth savant was competitive before U19, but it's a dead PrE now, except for flavor. Both fire and air gained massively in DPS and ice is still competitive due to being already really strong (and also due to a certain bug).

    Earth has no versatility, no hyper efficient DPS (scorching ray/mm/shiradi) and no ability to burst DPS. Survivability is nothing compared to air's. Earth was questionable even before and gained NOTHING in the update. Come on guys, this isn't rocket science.

  19. #39
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    I think what is being missed due to peoples focusing too much on the word "NEED" and misunderstanding it more as "WANT". It really comes down to the following for any character in EE content.

    In order to survive you "NEED" at least one more HP then what the last hit hits you for... Obviously you need to be able to take more than one hit, the size of the buffer that HPs lend each character can be evaluated based on the ability to ignore damage through PRR, Saves, Damage Shielding (Elemental Protections, damage reductions) and miss chances. Each player should measure this for both their Physical and Magical protection and use this to help gauge the "Right Amount" of HP for their character. This is needed to prevent yourself from always becoming a stone and to prevent yourself from becoming an ineffective "Wall of HP".

    At EE questing you need Defensive capabilities to avoid damage, miss chances like Displacement and incorporeal and dodge especially combined make it harder to hit you physically which means less resources needed to stay alive and more resources available for Killing. Now against mobs not effected by Displacement or incorporeal defenses only Dodge stands between you an being hit. Here it is important to know your enemy.

    But these don't protect you from Spell damage. Spell damage does not care if you have 50% displacement and 25% incorporeal or even 25% dodge. Here only Saves and the ability to absorb the spell damage will save you.

    Next not all EE quests require you to "Steamroll" the dungeon to succeed. There are quiet a few that can be done with Finesse. Unfortunately for the newer content I can only think of two of these quests that can work this way and that is "Old stone" and "Breaking the Ice" both have end fights that have to be fought. But for the most part you can advance to the end with minimal fighting (or in simple terms you don't have to fight everything).

    I agree that having displacement on any EE character goes a long way in avoiding incoming physical damage. It is unfortunate that the two aspects of AC was designed to scale while leaving Displacement/Incorporeal and dodge as flat values that are the same no matter what level range one is in.

    Now EE quests can be done without these elements, but it will likely be resource intensive as well as exponentially harder to do.

  20. #40
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    Sorry but it's not me who needs to work on my game playing. Probably neither you, no idea and don't care, but your point is wrong.
    You only prove my point with your opinion.

    I have been doing many a thing in game without stuff that people go "oh you need it 100% guaranteed".

    Pfff.

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