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  1. #21
    Community Member Irongutz2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikke View Post
    Hi Hasty,

    Thanks for your reply. The monk itself is very self sufficient but try to get rid of a party member's curse or res them , or get rid of stat damage for them and it's a no go. you can do it yourself but not so much for others. And that is what I'm speaking about. Monks do kick ass even more now but the function in which they play in a party has diminished significantly.
    Mind you the flip side of that is that it appears clerics and Rogues are regaining there importance within a party and since this game has always been a multi-player game . I'm actually starting to sing a different tune then I was yesterday. If it is heading towards of the direction of requiring a full party to achieve a quest / raid completion, I'm all for that :-)
    Thanks again for your insight.

    Cheers

    Mike
    Try the cleric dilly if that's what u want outta a monk
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  2. #22

    Default Shintao Monk: A bit of Flanderization

    I understand how the OP feels. It's not a matter of gameplay, but class theme and style.

    The Light/Shintao before Update 19 had "battle cleric" written all over it--a "Cleric's cleric" if that could be said. Monks (by game theme in D&D lore) is a generous, altruistic class and the Light Monk's abilities, before the update, reflected this.

    Now, while similar abilities are there, what are now known as "elemental curatives" appear to work only on the Monk himself. How selfish, but more importantly, how un-helpful to the party--and uncharacteristic for this D&D class.

    The most significant change involves Rise of the Phoenix. I can understand why this was altered. I preferred it over the old Monk Improved Recovery III as raising dead in a crisis was a godsend, especially in a very challenging quest where deaths are more frequent after ship buffs and resources are taxed. Most players opted otherwise. That ship of arguments has sailed; what remains of "Monk Improved Recovery" is found 5% at a time from each of the Shintao's class core enhancements.

    The first alpha version turned RotF into some "Avatar-state" god-mode but was brought back to its roots by final release and improved: It's now a Resurrection spell useful only to the Monk at death.

    Wow. Way to help a party. At least once you're back up, you can scramble to gather soulstones and take them back to a shrine or to a party member that's a "real" healer.

    Again, it's not a matter of the new Shintao's prowess in fighting. (In fact, my tanker is FAR more durable and versatile.) It's a matter of how you expect a class to behave. Do you expect a Fighter to stand behind the spellcasters? No. They are meant for the front lines and players play their characters to the class's theme. Do spellcasters run forward to grab aggro? No. They are walking artillery batteries that support the team from the background.

    I know the arguments to use Half-Elf Cleric dillettante to get some of this aid back. That's nice, but not all of us enjoy or desire to go "munchkin" on every toon, multiclassing and tweaking every single thing. We create a class to enjoy the characteristics of that class, not necessarily to feel compelled to add something to the character from elsewhere that should already be part of the class's abilities.

    Of the three Monk trees, the Shintao lost something philosophical in its foundation. It's been Flanderized a bit, to take a TV Tropism. Sure, we're good fighters. But the devs, in my opinion, have taken that aspect and overemphasized its importance at a sacrifice to the class's theme.

    In contrast, the Ninja Spy has gone RADICALLY ninja and I enjoy it most of all. I'm getting the feel for the Henshin (you treat ki as spellpoints more and spell power works to it...hm. I've not much experience in spell casters) but it, too, has a good theme as well as game style.
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  3. #23
    Community Member inspiredunease's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spencerian View Post
    ... snip
    Well reasoned, well organised post, but I think Shintao has not lost anything, it's merely been altered from a healer/buffer theme to buffer/protector (which I think still fits with it's thematic roots). I'm enjoying it personally, but still think it needs tweaking back a little in the other direction. The loss of the targetable rise of the phoenix is the biggest thing as far as I'm concerned. Hopefully over time we will continue to see more balancing, as we are with Henshin with update 19 patch 2: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...30#post4503430.

  4. #24
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    My 3 big issues with Shintao are as follows

    1 - Rise of the Phoenix went from pretty useful to pointless...when things go south monks are often the ones that survive it all so changing it from a rez to a self-rez not only makes it pointless it also make it so you have to save 100 ki for it to work instead of Pre-U19 you could just use meditate or if you have the GMoF ED you could use Inner Focus, than walk around rezzing people not to mention it cost half as much ki. The cooldown is also 15 minuites instead of 15 seconds.

    Pre-U19: Decent ability that made shintao/light monk quite attractive
    Post-U19: Pointless ability that will rarely be used due to cooldown and requiring a large amount of ki to be banked

    2 - The curatives...at first I though this was really cool taking the whole line cause your healing ki burst finisher to cure blindness, curses, disease and adds a lessor restoration effect..than I found out you can only have one active at a time..making this once again fairly useless beyond taking the first tier (probably curses) this isn't U19s fault they just failed to fix them to not suck.

    3 - There's NO way for an unarmed monk to get a non-standard stat to damage...Dex or Wisdom obviously being the targets with Weapon Finesse allowing for dex to-hit (wisdom makes more sense imo) this would have worked perfectly in the shintao line...I'd say replace that useless "Protection from Tainted creatures" with "Ki Strike" Wisdom to damage when fighting with any monk weapons including handwraps/unarmed.
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 09-13-2013 at 10:51 AM.
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  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by inspiredunease View Post
    Well reasoned, well organised post, but I think Shintao has not lost anything, it's merely been altered from a healer/buffer theme to buffer/protector (which I think still fits with it's thematic roots). I'm enjoying it personally, but still think it needs tweaking back a little in the other direction. The loss of the targetable rise of the phoenix is the biggest thing as far as I'm concerned. Hopefully over time we will continue to see more balancing, as we are with Henshin with update 19 patch 2: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...30#post4503430.
    Agree on the Henshin. It's an unusual class tree that needs a LOT more spellpower options but is pretty fun. It's new, and it took time for the Monk as a whole to come into its own in the game, so patience is a virtue.

    While it sounds like the devs still have "many additions and changes" for patch 2, let's hope that add a simple Void attack as an optional feat (or one that's granted) for those level 10 finishers that can't work unless you're a Henshin.
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  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    My 3 big issues with Shintao are as follows

    1 - Rise of the Phoenix went from pretty useful to pointless...when things go south monks are often the ones that survive it all so changing it from a rez to a self-rez not only makes it pointless it also make it so you have to save 100 ki for it to work instead of Pre-U19 you could just use meditate or if you have the GMoF ED you could use Inner Focus, than walk around rezzing people not to mention it cost half as much ki. The cooldown is also 15 minuites instead of 15 seconds.

    Pre-U19: Decent ability that made shintao/light monk quite attractive
    Post-U19: Pointless ability that will rarely be used due to cooldown and requiring a large amount of ki to be banked

    2 - The curatives...at first I though this was really cool taking the whole line cause your healing ki burst finisher to cure blindness, curses, disease and adds a lessor restoration effect..than I found out you can only have one active at a time..making this once again fairly useless beyond taking the first tier (probably curses) this isn't U19s fault they just failed to fix them to not suck.

    3 - There's NO way for an unarmed monk to get a non-standard stat to damage...Dex or Wisdom obviously being the targets with Weapon Finesse allowing for dex to-hit (wisdom makes more sense imo) this would have worked perfectly in the shintao line...I'd say replace that useless "Protection from Tainted creatures" with "Ki Strike" Wisdom to damage when fighting with any monk weapons including handwraps/unarmed.
    Using the curatives one at a time isn't an issue as much as the extra ki required just to use them. It's quite easy to select any to use anytime and doesn't break a charged Healing Ki finisher. It just now takes about 10 seconds to activate it. The change is welcome in format since you can grab it much earlier in the game and don't have to wait to remove your curses until that ability is unlocked and when you're a certain level as in the old system.

    I've decided to workaround the raise-dead issue with a little-known (in my sphere, anyway) trinket: Onyx of the Twelve. It's a one-shot that you can make with 10 planar shards from the Subterrane. You can only carry one at a time, being exclusive, but at least it's handy for those emergencies.
    Editor, The Book of Syncletica: An unofficial DDO Monk Guide, and Stormreach Shadows: An unofficial DDO Stealth Guide
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  7. #27
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Currently using eHard Ivy Wraps enabling Ninja Spy DEX modifier to damage (modified 32 DEX w tomes, gear, enhancements but w/o ship buffs). Modified WIS is 42 w/o ship buffs, yugo potions, etc.

    Hope that helps.
    Is this actually working? There seems to be some debate regarding Weapon Type (bludgeon?) v. Damage Type (piercing?). Obviously, I WANT it to work, since a Wis/Dex monk is right up my alley, but if it isn't working, then it's possible that Wis/Dex monks may be dead... Confirm?

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spencerian View Post
    Now, while similar abilities are there, what are now known as "elemental curatives" appear to work only on the Monk himself. How selfish, but more importantly, how un-helpful to the party--and uncharacteristic for this D&D class.
    I can't really speak to much of it (my main monk is still slogging through a barb life, and my other monk is still rather low level and gets hardly any play 'cause he's on an alt server) but this I can say is wrong. It affects everyone who gets hit with the healing ki, as I know from getting hit with it *by* a monk. RotP is self-only, but the others are AoE. I use Fists of Light/Healing Ki far more than any other combo, simply because I prefer getting healed to taking down a mob a couple of seconds more quickly, so this makes it work better for me (That, and I never took that line before anyway...)

    But yeah. RotP not-withstanding, the elemental curatives are *more* helpful to the party. And while I was always kind of envious of my monk friend's ability to raise the cleric... well, that's what Shroud triple-pos items with raise dead clickies are for. Heck, even my neg-UMD barb can bring back the cleric! But the spammed AoE Remove Curse in ToD? Love it.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Credit for the build goes to my son who borrowed ideas from others and researched all the synergy.

    Halfling, 32 point first life, 6/18/12/10/18/8 with stat increases in WIS, +4 tomes in all stats. Dodge, mobility, spring attack, stunning fist, combat expertise, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, toughness, IC:bludgeon, path of inevitable dominion, vorpal strikes, improved martial arts.

    Maxed destinies: GMoF, Exalted Angel, Shadowdancer, Unyielding Sentinel. All other destinies have 4 levels in them. Used fate tome for 2 fate points.

    Twists: Standing with Stone, Improved Combat Expertise, Dance of Flowers. Run in Unbreakable stance with Unyielding Sentinel as active destiny.

    US: Bane of Undeath, Brace for Impact (2), Consitution (3), Healing Hands, Endless Lay on Hands (3), Spark of Life, Hardened (3), Undying Vanguard. Hands are just filler points, there are probably more useful choices as the LoH amount is very trivial.

    Enhancements: 44ap in Shintao including 2 WIS, Kukan-Do, Violence Begets Violence, Meditation of War and Open Hand Mastery; 29ap in Ninja Spy including 1 DEX, 1 WIS, Sting of the Ninja and No Mercy (3); 7ap racial with all 5 core enhancements.

    Running with Sun Soul set at L25, need 4 commendations to upgrade Spiderspun to Sun Soul set.

    In mountain stance w CE on this gives 114 AC (no ship buffs), 105 PRR, 28% max dodge (currently standing at 26%), 30 spell resistance, DR 10/epic (2), DR 10/good, 150% fortification, 10% incorporeal standing (25% with Shadow Veil), 10% blur, Sun Soul procs 25% miss chance in mountain stance (not positive how this stacks with everything else).

    Currently using eHard Ivy Wraps enabling Ninja Spy DEX modifier to damage (modified 32 DEX w tomes, gear, enhancements but w/o ship buffs). Modified WIS is 42 w/o ship buffs, yugo potions, etc.

    Hope that helps.


    Thanks I might use this one myself

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  10. #30
    Community Member inspiredunease's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    Is this actually working? There seems to be some debate regarding Weapon Type (bludgeon?) v. Damage Type (piercing?). Obviously, I WANT it to work, since a Wis/Dex monk is right up my alley, but if it isn't working, then it's possible that Wis/Dex monks may be dead... Confirm?
    Yes. They've fixed it.

  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by LrdSlvrhnd View Post
    I can't really speak to much of it (my main monk is still slogging through a barb life, and my other monk is still rather low level and gets hardly any play 'cause he's on an alt server) but this I can say is wrong. It affects everyone who gets hit with the healing ki, as I know from getting hit with it *by* a monk. RotP is self-only, but the others are AoE. I use Fists of Light/Healing Ki far more than any other combo, simply because I prefer getting healed to taking down a mob a couple of seconds more quickly, so this makes it work better for me (That, and I never took that line before anyway...)

    But yeah. RotP not-withstanding, the elemental curatives are *more* helpful to the party. And while I was always kind of envious of my monk friend's ability to raise the cleric... well, that's what Shroud triple-pos items with raise dead clickies are for. Heck, even my neg-UMD barb can bring back the cleric! But the spammed AoE Remove Curse in ToD? Love it.
    Yep. Confirmed that the curatives are mass-procing. Was great to have mass-remove curses in a past CiTW run.

    Guess I'll make a lot of Subterrane runs to create some Raise Dead crystals for super emergencies for my Human characters. The Half Elves with Cleric skillz have it covered.
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  12. #32
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    For raising you can make a tier II Pos/Pos Shroud item, grind (or hunt the AH) for a Ring of the Ancestors (rare drop in end chest of Slavers of the Shrieking Mines), or acquire any of the options for single-use clickies.

    For the Ring of the Ancestors, I used to do runs on my wizard that took about 3 minutes total from The Foothold and back. Now, with the ability to reset a quest at the entrance, you could cut that time in half. Grab a buddy and start ransacking that chest: you can have as many rings as you like. Personally, I farmed up two before I called it quits, though I might consider running those again now that it's faster.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  13. #33
    Community Member SensaiRyu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Credit for the build goes to my son who borrowed ideas from others and researched all the synergy.
    [Snip]

    Hope that helps.
    +1rep to your son. I went and tried it. Big help!

    I consider my monk a Shintao monk. I don't think it's broken.

    I put most of my points into the shintao tree. Also took a bit of Ninja, Henshin, and HElf to make a better Shintao. I've ran in US before and have been unimpressed. So, I only used it for certain quests. After looking at your post I took another look and am pretty happy with the results.

    Selected enhancements grant me Veil for incorp, ki regen, added HP/AC, and the ability to self restore/heal.

    I've had US for a long time but only used it for tanking - DPS was noticeably lower than when running in LD. So I decided to spend my time in LD and gave up on US (except for an occasional tanking run).

    However, your suggestions have put me back in the 150AC range (ship buffs and Epic Mage Armor) and a PRR of 84 (without Standing twisted in) in Earth and Unbreakable stances. I also have DPS/PRR/AP options available via twists. Air stance is a bit less, but still workable.

    Also, for the first time in a long time I'm looking at almost 900HP.

    Blinding Speed and Epic Mage Armor are great with this build (and probably other builds too).

    In earth stance I have a 6% doublestrike (with a ring) and can twist in 3% more. Standing Attack Speed is +15%.

    These are my US abilities per tier:
    Brace for Impact (2), Con
    Fanaticism, Endless Smiting (2), Con
    Intolerant Blow, Con
    Hardened (3), Ward against Evil (3)
    Undying Vanguard

    What do I miss from my previous enhancements? Void strike and Tomb of Jade mostly. However, with my quickbar lineup post U17, I found that I used them less and less. U19 gave me the opportunity to take Shadow Veil. I've been on and off considering to go back to dark just to have it. Now I get it and and have a solid Shintao lineup.

    To the OP, Shintao's definitely not broken and the U19 enhancement lineup is way more tailorable than what it was before.
    My 3rd Life Monk, 2nd Life Monk builds. My pre-MoTU Light Monk build.
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  14. #34

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    On topic: While my monk is currently a ninja, the shintao is still a solid monk choice. Hell, I have the first 4 core abilities on my ninja just for the alchemical fingers.

    The following abilities are damn sexy:
    Deft Strikes: This is something other monk types will invest in.
    Ki Shout: 2 APs over trying to fit in Intimidate? Yes, please!
    Iron Skin: Something other monks will invest in.
    Dismissing Strike: A very potent insta kill for EH content.
    Kukan Do: At range stunning is *still* effing awesome.
    Empty Hand Mastery: This is a permanent 25% damage increase for an unarmed fighter.
    Meditation of War: Is great if you have the Shintao capstone.

    First, Rise of the Phoenix is just lame. A stance that keeps you from dying and does a ki powered heal when you hit negative HP numbers would be a far better setup.

    Second, I wish they would reduce the cooldown on Tomb of Jade. That one minute timer is just absurd for an attack with a save, a limited set of targets and a high ki cost.


    Quote Originally Posted by Spencerian View Post
    Guess I'll make a lot of Subterrane runs to create some Raise Dead crystals for super emergencies for my Human characters. The Half Elves with Cleric skillz have it covered.
    Meh. Double positive greensteel weapon. Or, UMD scrolls, they only have a 36 DC. If you have to raise a partymember more than once per shrine, you’re probably doing something wrong.
    Things that if Turbine went all EXTREME PREJUDICE™ on, would actually make the game fun again.:
    • Giving us the racial PrE’s we were promised, before rolling out DDOStore™ Enhancement Trees.
    • One loot system to rule them all. (Including Cannith Crafting, and Named Loot.)
    • Fixing the Cannith Challenges so that they can be 6 starred without incredible luck or store bought items.
    • Adjusting Challenge XP so that they're worth running more than once.

  15. #35
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    What happens when talking about class X is good or bad, or talking about anything being good or bad, is that "good" or "bad" are always comparison terms. So shintao needs to be put in context for a proper evaluation.

    About shintao capstone / meditation of war. Monk capstones are to me absolutely out of the question. If you weigh what 2 levels of fighter can do for your monk - namely, +1/+2 to all your DCs (taking into account losing 2 wis from capstone and 2 monk levels), haste boost, extra AB, and 2 extra feats which might allow you to qualify for a free overwhelming critical, for instance, compared to what you are giving up - 0.5 step of unarmed die and a couple of bells and whistles that are non-essential - it is pretty clear pure monks are neither the best DPS, nor the best DC combination. 20 monk is IMHO a really, really tough sell at the moment.

    Unarmed mastery sounds cool for sure. However, it turns out the other choices are pretty solid - if not flat out superior. You are comparing empty hand mastery to having a quarterstaff with the crit profile of an eSOS - and still be able to use quivering palm, and not having to worry about spreading stats to dex to qualify for TWF lines, or not having to worry about maxing out unarmed die - meaning even less tradeoffs for fighter / pally / rogue splashes. Not to mention half orcs, THF kings, do get a +3 to sunder DCs, that works with QP, on tier 1, for 3 AP plus 1 for opening the tree, plus all the PA / THF / AB goodies you may possibly want (and can afford).

    Ninja spy isn't looking bad, either. 11 points in ninja spy are almost mandatory no matter what kind of monk you play. 25% etherealness is that good. Yes, 1d8 is 1 point of damage on average over 1d6 (crit profile aside- but then unarmed monks have the worst crit profile of all DDO), but to reach 10d8 would take a pure monk with really good wraps disciple of the fist, improved martial arts and vorpal strikes. 4 SA dice will give you 14 dmg per strike - and you've got unbalanced strike to make SA go off no matter what. If SF is your thing you've got No mercy - but SF is looking pretty weak if you compare it to QP these days. Then you've got the burst DPS of shadow double which is a nice clutch button.

    Another gripe of mine with shintao is that unless you're going earth stance all the way you are going to spend a heck of a lot of enhancement points in garbage filler. Sure, earth stance is amazing and a great choice, but if you're a QP monk you will need all the ki you can get, plus all the DCs you can get -that fighter splash: tactics for DC, haste boost for ki, and/or fire or water stance for extra ki or extra DCs- above PRR and a better crit profile that is obviously less useful for an insta-killer build.

    Long story short: shintao is pretty much the monk tank obvious choice, with huge PRR, bigger hp buffer, stronger hate generation, intimidate checks based on concentration, and meditation of war for even more PRR and hp. If tank is not your thing you might then IMHO want to start looking somewhere else.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantumFX View Post
    Empty Hand Mastery: This is a permanent 25% damage increase for an unarmed fighter.
    I agree with everything in your post save this 25% increase, because it's a 25% increase over the portion of damage per hit that is due to weapon dice.

    Before I TR'ed my monk he was hitting for ~70 base damage (meaning the leftmost damage number on screen, aka the number that always gets multiplied on critical hits) on a regular left click attack (meaning no earth strikes / fists of iron / any other special attack). I had 9 damage dice; we're talking 9 points of damage per hit due to Empty hand mastery. 9 out of 70 is close to ~13%, and that's before you factor in spike studded from gloves or wraps, holy / shocking burst from ToD rings, sneak attack dice, elemental damage from your wraps / red augment slots, or extra damage dice from sense weakness / tunnel vision (if you twisted in / are using any of those ED abilities), just to name a few additional sources of extra non-base damage dice per hit which further make that 13% shrink considerably.

    But that's not the only concern. The thing is Empty hand mastery shuts down all tier 5s from other trees, so as I said in my previous post you have to compare what you are giving up with what you are gaining. It turns out that on an exact EP prereqs / costs comparison, you are giving up Shadow double, and touch of death _if_ you want to/can build for it, though this is no longer a 1-on-1 comparison EP / prereqs wise.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Credit for the build goes to my son who borrowed ideas from others and researched all the synergy.
    ... edited for brevity ...
    Hope that helps.
    what order did you take the feats?
    how would you adjust this for a 36 point build?

    also im just guessing here, max concentratio and balance?

    thanks in advance
    Last edited by thouston; 10-24-2013 at 11:39 AM.
    if life gives you lemons, make lemonade.
    if life gives you pickles, well you're screwed. because pickleade sucks.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by thouston View Post
    what order did you take the feats?
    how would you adjust this for a 36 point build?

    also im just guessing here, max concentratio and balance?

    thanks in advance
    Also, on that note, what is your plan now that U20 abolishes dexfordam w/ all handwraps? Brawling gloves and ivy wraps will no longer work with the ninjaspy core enhs come that release.

  19. #39
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    Default Hmmm...

    I love my monk build. Primarily shintao. I think he is better after the enhancement changes. Same dps, more tanky.

    http://ddocrafting.info/myddo/ghallanda/ellecktra/


    Quote Originally Posted by Mikke View Post
    Hi All,
    I don't know if it's just me but does anyone else feel that the Shintao monk has been nerfed to unbelievable measures?

    Before update 19 the Shintao monk was a paragon of goodness that was highly useful in a party and never needed a shrine. Now it seems that it is just a self sufficient class that needs to shrine every two minutes.

    In addition there is no more passive ki generation which isn't really a problem but it's a pain not being able to use the monk moves that actually do work.

    I am also experiencing difficulties understanding why or new self res capability has a 15 min timer on it AND a once per rest?

    This until recently has been my favourite class to play and personally I'd gladly give up the touch of the dragon and the self res to be able to be useful in a party again?

    Can someone please help me find the 'LOVE' of this class again. I really feel it is broken and invite other's insight.

    Cheers
    Valiant Accord

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