I understand how the OP feels. It's not a matter of gameplay, but class theme and style.
The Light/Shintao before Update 19 had "battle cleric" written all over it--a "Cleric's cleric" if that could be said. Monks (by game theme in D&D lore) is a generous, altruistic class and the Light Monk's abilities, before the update, reflected this.
Now, while similar abilities are there, what are now known as "elemental curatives" appear to work only on the Monk himself. How selfish, but more importantly, how un-helpful to the party--and uncharacteristic for this D&D class.
The most significant change involves Rise of the Phoenix. I can understand why this was altered. I preferred it over the old Monk Improved Recovery III as raising dead in a crisis was a godsend, especially in a very challenging quest where deaths are more frequent after ship buffs and resources are taxed. Most players opted otherwise. That ship of arguments has sailed; what remains of "Monk Improved Recovery" is found 5% at a time from each of the Shintao's class core enhancements.
The first alpha version turned RotF into some "Avatar-state" god-mode but was brought back to its roots by final release and improved: It's now a Resurrection spell useful only to the Monk at death.
Wow. Way to help a party. At least once you're back up, you can scramble to gather soulstones and take them back to a shrine or to a party member that's a "real" healer.
Again, it's not a matter of the new Shintao's prowess in fighting. (In fact, my tanker is FAR more durable and versatile.) It's a matter of how you expect a class to behave. Do you expect a Fighter to stand behind the spellcasters? No. They are meant for the front lines and players play their characters to the class's theme. Do spellcasters run forward to grab aggro? No. They are walking artillery batteries that support the team from the background.
I know the arguments to use Half-Elf Cleric dillettante to get some of this aid back. That's nice, but not all of us enjoy or desire to go "munchkin" on every toon, multiclassing and tweaking every single thing. We create a class to enjoy the characteristics of that class, not necessarily to feel compelled to add something to the character from elsewhere that should already be part of the class's abilities.
Of the three Monk trees, the Shintao lost something philosophical in its foundation. It's been Flanderized a bit, to take a TV Tropism. Sure, we're good fighters. But the devs, in my opinion, have taken that aspect and overemphasized its importance at a sacrifice to the class's theme.
In contrast, the Ninja Spy has gone RADICALLY ninja and I enjoy it most of all. I'm getting the feel for the Henshin (you treat ki as spellpoints more and spell power works to it...hm. I've not much experience in spell casters) but it, too, has a good theme as well as game style.
My 3 big issues with Shintao are as follows
1 - Rise of the Phoenix went from pretty useful to pointless...when things go south monks are often the ones that survive it all so changing it from a rez to a self-rez not only makes it pointless it also make it so you have to save 100 ki for it to work instead of Pre-U19 you could just use meditate or if you have the GMoF ED you could use Inner Focus, than walk around rezzing people not to mention it cost half as much ki. The cooldown is also 15 minuites instead of 15 seconds.
Pre-U19: Decent ability that made shintao/light monk quite attractive
Post-U19: Pointless ability that will rarely be used due to cooldown and requiring a large amount of ki to be banked
2 - The curatives...at first I though this was really cool taking the whole line cause your healing ki burst finisher to cure blindness, curses, disease and adds a lessor restoration effect..than I found out you can only have one active at a time..making this once again fairly useless beyond taking the first tier (probably curses) this isn't U19s fault they just failed to fix them to not suck.
3 - There's NO way for an unarmed monk to get a non-standard stat to damage...Dex or Wisdom obviously being the targets with Weapon Finesse allowing for dex to-hit (wisdom makes more sense imo) this would have worked perfectly in the shintao line...I'd say replace that useless "Protection from Tainted creatures" with "Ki Strike" Wisdom to damage when fighting with any monk weapons including handwraps/unarmed.
Last edited by Failedlegend; 09-13-2013 at 09:51 AM.
Originally Posted by Cordovan
While it sounds like the devs still have "many additions and changes" for patch 2, let's hope that add a simple Void attack as an optional feat (or one that's granted) for those level 10 finishers that can't work unless you're a Henshin.
I've decided to workaround the raise-dead issue with a little-known (in my sphere, anyway) trinket: Onyx of the Twelve. It's a one-shot that you can make with 10 planar shards from the Subterrane. You can only carry one at a time, being exclusive, but at least it's handy for those emergencies.
But yeah. RotP not-withstanding, the elemental curatives are *more* helpful to the party. And while I was always kind of envious of my monk friend's ability to raise the cleric... well, that's what Shroud triple-pos items with raise dead clickies are for. Heck, even my neg-UMD barb can bring back the cleric! But the spammed AoE Remove Curse in ToD? Love it.
"Ignorance killed the cat, sir; curiosity was framed."
Tripoint, C.J. Cherryh
Guess I'll make a lot of Subterrane runs to create some Raise Dead crystals for super emergencies for my Human characters. The Half Elves with Cleric skillz have it covered.
For raising you can make a tier II Pos/Pos Shroud item, grind (or hunt the AH) for a Ring of the Ancestors (rare drop in end chest of Slavers of the Shrieking Mines), or acquire any of the options for single-use clickies.
For the Ring of the Ancestors, I used to do runs on my wizard that took about 3 minutes total from The Foothold and back. Now, with the ability to reset a quest at the entrance, you could cut that time in half. Grab a buddy and start ransacking that chest: you can have as many rings as you like. Personally, I farmed up two before I called it quits, though I might consider running those again now that it's faster.
I consider my monk a Shintao monk. I don't think it's broken.
I put most of my points into the shintao tree. Also took a bit of Ninja, Henshin, and HElf to make a better Shintao. I've ran in US before and have been unimpressed. So, I only used it for certain quests. After looking at your post I took another look and am pretty happy with the results.
Selected enhancements grant me Veil for incorp, ki regen, added HP/AC, and the ability to self restore/heal.
I've had US for a long time but only used it for tanking - DPS was noticeably lower than when running in LD. So I decided to spend my time in LD and gave up on US (except for an occasional tanking run).
However, your suggestions have put me back in the 150AC range (ship buffs and Epic Mage Armor) and a PRR of 84 (without Standing twisted in) in Earth and Unbreakable stances. I also have DPS/PRR/AP options available via twists. Air stance is a bit less, but still workable.
Also, for the first time in a long time I'm looking at almost 900HP.
Blinding Speed and Epic Mage Armor are great with this build (and probably other builds too).
In earth stance I have a 6% doublestrike (with a ring) and can twist in 3% more. Standing Attack Speed is +15%.
These are my US abilities per tier:
Brace for Impact (2), Con
Fanaticism, Endless Smiting (2), Con
Intolerant Blow, Con
Hardened (3), Ward against Evil (3)
What do I miss from my previous enhancements? Void strike and Tomb of Jade mostly. However, with my quickbar lineup post U17, I found that I used them less and less. U19 gave me the opportunity to take Shadow Veil. I've been on and off considering to go back to dark just to have it. Now I get it and and have a solid Shintao lineup.
To the OP, Shintao's definitely not broken and the U19 enhancement lineup is way more tailorable than what it was before.
On topic: While my monk is currently a ninja, the shintao is still a solid monk choice. Hell, I have the first 4 core abilities on my ninja just for the alchemical fingers.
The following abilities are damn sexy:
Deft Strikes: This is something other monk types will invest in.
Ki Shout: 2 APs over trying to fit in Intimidate? Yes, please!
Iron Skin: Something other monks will invest in.
Dismissing Strike: A very potent insta kill for EH content.
Kukan Do: At range stunning is *still* effing awesome.
Empty Hand Mastery: This is a permanent 25% damage increase for an unarmed fighter.
Meditation of War: Is great if you have the Shintao capstone.
First, Rise of the Phoenix is just lame. A stance that keeps you from dying and does a ki powered heal when you hit negative HP numbers would be a far better setup.
Second, I wish they would reduce the cooldown on Tomb of Jade. That one minute timer is just absurd for an attack with a save, a limited set of targets and a high ki cost.
Things that if Turbine went all EXTREME PREJUDICE™ on, would actually make the game fun again.:
- Giving us the racial PrE’s we were promised, before rolling out DDOStore™ Enhancement Trees.
- Cannith Crafting.
- Update the named loot to put them on the same system.
- Fixing the Cannith Challenges so that they can be 6 starred without incredible luck or store bought items.
- Fixing all challenges to give us decent XP and ingredient returns for the unreasonable time we have to spend in most of them.
What happens when talking about class X is good or bad, or talking about anything being good or bad, is that "good" or "bad" are always comparison terms. So shintao needs to be put in context for a proper evaluation.
About shintao capstone / meditation of war. Monk capstones are to me absolutely out of the question. If you weigh what 2 levels of fighter can do for your monk - namely, +1/+2 to all your DCs (taking into account losing 2 wis from capstone and 2 monk levels), haste boost, extra AB, and 2 extra feats which might allow you to qualify for a free overwhelming critical, for instance, compared to what you are giving up - 0.5 step of unarmed die and a couple of bells and whistles that are non-essential - it is pretty clear pure monks are neither the best DPS, nor the best DC combination. 20 monk is IMHO a really, really tough sell at the moment.
Unarmed mastery sounds cool for sure. However, it turns out the other choices are pretty solid - if not flat out superior. You are comparing empty hand mastery to having a quarterstaff with the crit profile of an eSOS - and still be able to use quivering palm, and not having to worry about spreading stats to dex to qualify for TWF lines, or not having to worry about maxing out unarmed die - meaning even less tradeoffs for fighter / pally / rogue splashes. Not to mention half orcs, THF kings, do get a +3 to sunder DCs, that works with QP, on tier 1, for 3 AP plus 1 for opening the tree, plus all the PA / THF / AB goodies you may possibly want (and can afford).
Ninja spy isn't looking bad, either. 11 points in ninja spy are almost mandatory no matter what kind of monk you play. 25% etherealness is that good. Yes, 1d8 is 1 point of damage on average over 1d6 (crit profile aside- but then unarmed monks have the worst crit profile of all DDO), but to reach 10d8 would take a pure monk with really good wraps disciple of the fist, improved martial arts and vorpal strikes. 4 SA dice will give you 14 dmg per strike - and you've got unbalanced strike to make SA go off no matter what. If SF is your thing you've got No mercy - but SF is looking pretty weak if you compare it to QP these days. Then you've got the burst DPS of shadow double which is a nice clutch button.
Another gripe of mine with shintao is that unless you're going earth stance all the way you are going to spend a heck of a lot of enhancement points in garbage filler. Sure, earth stance is amazing and a great choice, but if you're a QP monk you will need all the ki you can get, plus all the DCs you can get -that fighter splash: tactics for DC, haste boost for ki, and/or fire or water stance for extra ki or extra DCs- above PRR and a better crit profile that is obviously less useful for an insta-killer build.
Long story short: shintao is pretty much the monk tank obvious choice, with huge PRR, bigger hp buffer, stronger hate generation, intimidate checks based on concentration, and meditation of war for even more PRR and hp. If tank is not your thing you might then IMHO want to start looking somewhere else.
Before I TR'ed my monk he was hitting for ~70 base damage (meaning the leftmost damage number on screen, aka the number that always gets multiplied on critical hits) on a regular left click attack (meaning no earth strikes / fists of iron / any other special attack). I had 9 damage dice; we're talking 9 points of damage per hit due to Empty hand mastery. 9 out of 70 is close to ~13%, and that's before you factor in spike studded from gloves or wraps, holy / shocking burst from ToD rings, sneak attack dice, elemental damage from your wraps / red augment slots, or extra damage dice from sense weakness / tunnel vision (if you twisted in / are using any of those ED abilities), just to name a few additional sources of extra non-base damage dice per hit which further make that 13% shrink considerably.
But that's not the only concern. The thing is Empty hand mastery shuts down all tier 5s from other trees, so as I said in my previous post you have to compare what you are giving up with what you are gaining. It turns out that on an exact EP prereqs / costs comparison, you are giving up Shadow double, and touch of death _if_ you want to/can build for it, though this is no longer a 1-on-1 comparison EP / prereqs wise.
Last edited by thouston; 10-24-2013 at 10:39 AM.
if life gives you lemons, make lemonade.
if life gives you pickles, well you're screwed. because pickleade sucks.
I love my monk build. Primarily shintao. I think he is better after the enhancement changes. Same dps, more tanky.
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