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  1. #1
    Community Member Mikke's Avatar
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    Question The Shintao Monk is broken??!?

    Hi All,
    I don't know if it's just me but does anyone else feel that the Shintao monk has been nerfed to unbelievable measures?

    Before update 19 the Shintao monk was a paragon of goodness that was highly useful in a party and never needed a shrine. Now it seems that it is just a self sufficient class that needs to shrine every two minutes.

    In addition there is no more passive ki generation which isn't really a problem but it's a pain not being able to use the monk moves that actually do work.

    I am also experiencing difficulties understanding why or new self res capability has a 15 min timer on it AND a once per rest?

    This until recently has been my favourite class to play and personally I'd gladly give up the touch of the dragon and the self res to be able to be useful in a party again?

    Can someone please help me find the 'LOVE' of this class again. I really feel it is broken and invite other's insight.

    Cheers


    One way to find a rainbow is to look for it..... Another way is to create it!!

  2. #2
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    Take Henshin up to the Ki Regen +1, it's not that far. You can even take Elegant Crane along the way for more Ki. Or Ninja Spy for Shadow Veil. Or both.

    This update is REALLY pro-multiclass, and pro-multiPrE. It's not enough to just look at Shintao, you have to look at it with whatever else you can cram in there too.

    I'm not on a Monk life right now, what is making you have to shrine constantly?

  3. #3
    Community Member HastyPudding's Avatar
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    I'm not sure which game you're playing, but my Shintao kicks butt. Thanks to the new heal skill, a neat little item I found (has +8 wisdom and some devotion), human healing amplification, full Shintao core abilities, and some healing amplification items, I am healing myself for about 190-240 or so on non-critical healing ki's. I did a quest earlier in the new area without a cleric, and I literally kept a barbarian, a rogue, and myself alive just by spamming healing ki during the fights.

    With earth stance active (and the Shintao enhancements for earth stance) and in GMoF destiny, I can reach 55 PRR without a PRR item and 82 AC without trying, along with a nice 26% dodge (I got a dodge cap of 28 due to Ninja Spy). Add in the Ninja's shadow veil 25% incorporeal effect and I can negate a great deal of damage. On top of that, if you're unarmed, you can increase your unarmed die step to 1d8, and earth stance is nice for increasing your critical damage. Also, Shintao still has their full line of jade tomb, tainted smite, and the oh-so-lovely kukan-do.

    So yeah, I'm having a blast. I do feel Shintao seems almost forced into earth stance, but it makes them very, very survivable.

    As for the shrine situation, that's probably a henshin thing; they're going to want to keep their meditations to use on cauldron of flame. Shintao also only get 1 use of phoenix per rest.

  4. #4
    Community Member Mikke's Avatar
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    Default Cheers

    Quote Originally Posted by HastyPudding View Post
    I'm not sure which game you're playing, but my Shintao kicks butt. Thanks to the new heal skill, a neat little item I found (has +8 wisdom and some devotion), human healing amplification, full Shintao core abilities, and some healing amplification items, I am healing myself for about 190-240 or so on non-critical healing ki's. I did a quest earlier in the new area without a cleric, and I literally kept a barbarian, a rogue, and myself alive just by spamming healing ki during the fights.

    With earth stance active (and the Shintao enhancements for earth stance) and in GMoF destiny, I can reach 55 PRR without a PRR item and 82 AC without trying, along with a nice 26% dodge (I got a dodge cap of 28 due to Ninja Spy). Add in the Ninja's shadow veil 25% incorporeal effect and I can negate a great deal of damage. On top of that, if you're unarmed, you can increase your unarmed die step to 1d8, and earth stance is nice for increasing your critical damage. Also, Shintao still has their full line of jade tomb, tainted smite, and the oh-so-lovely kukan-do.

    So yeah, I'm having a blast. I do feel Shintao seems almost forced into earth stance, but it makes them very, very survivable.

    As for the shrine situation, that's probably a henshin thing; they're going to want to keep their meditations to use on cauldron of flame. Shintao also only get 1 use of phoenix per rest.
    Hi Hasty,

    Thanks for your reply. The monk itself is very self sufficient but try to get rid of a party member's curse or res them , or get rid of stat damage for them and it's a no go. you can do it yourself but not so much for others. And that is what I'm speaking about. Monks do kick ass even more now but the function in which they play in a party has diminished significantly.
    Mind you the flip side of that is that it appears clerics and Rogues are regaining there importance within a party and since this game has always been a multi-player game . I'm actually starting to sing a different tune then I was yesterday. If it is heading towards of the direction of requiring a full party to achieve a quest / raid completion, I'm all for that :-)
    Thanks again for your insight.

    Cheers

    Mike


    One way to find a rainbow is to look for it..... Another way is to create it!!

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by rimble View Post
    Take Henshin up to the Ki Regen +1, it's not that far.
    The only "Ki Regen +1" I can find in Henshin is Serenity, "requires: 40 points spent in tree".

    ... ah-hah, someone in game points out that Contemplation adds ki regen at 3/3.
    Yes, that seebs.
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  6. #6
    Community Member Mikke's Avatar
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    Default :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by seebs View Post
    The only "Ki Regen +1" I can find in Henshin is Serenity, "requires: 40 points spent in tree".

    ... ah-hah, someone in game points out that Contemplation adds ki regen at 3/3.
    Thanks Seeb,

    I'm actually liking the shin Tao quite a bit again. turns out I needed to relearn how to use some of the skills again:-) maybe I need to read a bit more before I post :-P


    One way to find a rainbow is to look for it..... Another way is to create it!!

  7. #7
    Community Member Shados_Draconioas's Avatar
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    Default Shintao Madness!!

    Mikke, I've looked over shintao on my own monk since the enhancement revamp, and I have to tell you, some things I'm not seeing.
    The monk itself is very self sufficient but try to get rid of a party member's curse or res them , or get rid of stat damage for them and it's a no go. you can do it yourself but not so much for others. And that is what I'm speaking about. Monks do kick ass even more now but the function in which they play in a party has diminished significantly.
    Let's start with this: If you look at Shintao, you can add "Remove Curse" to your "Healing Ki" finisher. This is incredible in places like ToD or VoD where removing EVERYONES curses comes in handy, as opposed to one person at a time (which is what the old enhancement was). This can also be done for diseases, blindness, and even stat damage.

    As for the passive ki regen, that's now under Henshin, which isn't a problem if you take ALMOST all of the enhancements from Shintao. In my opinion, there's some things you don't REALLY need (example: Ki Shout) so you can move points over in order to take Contemplation from Henshin Mystic. It'll only take 8 points to do this.

    Also, I don't know what race your monk is, but my monk is a Half-Elf. his racial feat for H-Elf was fighter, but is now Cleric and I've gained back some healing Amp and gained the ability to scroll heal/raise other party members if needed. It's a small change from the old Rise of the Phoenix, but it's something. And I DO agree with you that I miss the old version.

    As for the new one, well, some things had to change, I guess. It'll be something to use, or give up if you like something else better. If you have more questions, by all means, ask away. I'll act as the Temple Elder and help you find the Path.

    Just don't give up on the monk. We are STILL one of the bad-ass melee's in the game. We still hold our own, and we STILL rock the world (in mountain stance!).
    "Dumazz!! OPEN THE DOOR!" ~famous last words before the wraiths killed him when Dumazz accidently locked him out of the shrine~
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikke View Post
    Thanks Seeb,

    I'm actually liking the shin Tao quite a bit again. turns out I needed to relearn how to use some of the skills again:-) maybe I need to read a bit more before I post :-P
    there's alot more ki regen then before
    +1 ki regen in ninja spy, the 3rd tier of the stealthy enhancement, and its only when sneaking (4 pts spent)
    +1 ki regen in henshin, the 3rd tier of Contemplation (8 pts spend total)
    all monks cna get the 3rd and 4th tier of water stance which has +1 ki regen.

    so even without the previous capstone (which got moved into another tree I believe, its possibel to get decent ki regen and alot quicker then before.

  9. #9
    Community Member dkyle's Avatar
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    Does passive Ki generation even mean that much in practice? I had it for a while first by spending points in Henshin, but got them back once I got it from Grandmaster of Flowers, but now that I'm leveling other EDs, I don't feel like I really miss it, except occasionally in public zones.

    I can't live without Enhanced Ki somewhere, though. That makes a huge difference.

  10. #10
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikke View Post
    I don't know if it's just me....
    It must be.

    I get 114 AC and 105 PRR with 150% fortification while spending 44ap in Shintao, 29ap in Ninja Spy and 7ap in racial enhancements.

    I don't need to shrine and almost never need to take a break to meditate. With Ivy Wraps and the Ninja Spy enhancements plus Stunning Fist I am healing faster than I take damage most of the time.

    I think monk got a huge boost with the enhancement pass. The only reason I'm sticking with the gimp build I have now is because it is a first life character still at L25 and I'm busy playing others at the moment.

    But, if Turbine continues to "break" Shintao like they have with this update I'll have to convert all of my characters over. I can't even imagine what it would be like running the character with 36 build points or with a more synergistic race choice.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkyle View Post
    Does passive Ki generation even mean that much in practice? I had it for a while first by spending points in Henshin, but got them back once I got it from Grandmaster of Flowers, but now that I'm leveling other EDs, I don't feel like I really miss it, except occasionally in public zones.

    I can't live without Enhanced Ki somewhere, though. That makes a huge difference.
    What's "Enhanced Ki" as opposed to ki generation? The one thing I note is that each "increased ki generation" ability also effectively increases your stable ki pool -- if you have +1 passive ki generation, you are stable at 2x concentration in ki points.
    Yes, that seebs.
    Not having fun anymore? Learn to play, noob!

  12. #12
    Community Member Toro12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seebs View Post
    What's "Enhanced Ki" as opposed to ki generation? The one thing I note is that each "increased ki generation" ability also effectively increases your stable ki pool -- if you have +1 passive ki generation, you are stable at 2x concentration in ki points.
    Passive ki regen used to be from the capstone where you gain 1 ki every few seconds.
    Enhanced ki is found on items and it gives you extra ki per hit.

  13. #13
    Community Member Bilger's Avatar
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    There are multiple sources of key generation.

    1. Water stance beleive have to have ultimatr stance has Ki regen. Switch to water when in between fights and back to mountain when fighting. Best used by Monkcher types though.

    2. Ninja Spy as others said.

    3. If have 2 fighter lvl's can go to ascetic training in kensai line and get contemplation which regens Ki also.

    Those are the 3 ways I know of. As far as self suffeciancy monks have the highest in the game especially Shintao with HA and AC, PRR, Saves, and high dodge.

    I never have to shrine on mine accept to get back my slotted 200sp for cocoon. Even then that is rarely needed. Between light spamming and healing amp I have no issues.
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  14. #14
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilger View Post
    As far as self suffeciancy monks have the highest in the game especially Shintao with HA and AC, PRR, Saves, and high dodge.
    Are high up*
    Considering AC is meaningless, you can get more prr as a non-monk, same dodge (if in robes), whereas heal amp only matters for low-healing classes. My cleric has heal amp purely for fun. The ability to use the spell Heal with prr, evasion and 26% dodge is greater than anything a monk gets.

  15. #15
    Community Member Bilger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    Are high up*
    Considering AC is meaningless, you can get more prr as a non-monk, same dodge (if in robes), whereas heal amp only matters for low-healing classes. My cleric has heal amp purely for fun. The ability to use the spell Heal with prr, evasion and 26% dodge is greater than anything a monk gets.
    Not to derail, AC is not meaningless in this game at all. Yes, PRR and dodge are more important to push up, but you do benifit from high AC. Without trying hit 120 on monk and see a lot of misses. Near untouchablle matched with dodge and decent prr in EH content. In EE it is less meaningless, but still see plenty of misses to make it more than useful. That is my OP though and I do like to get AC when can and doesn't hurt my dodge, PRR, or DPS.

    Now that is all a matter of my OP a lot of people will disagree, but I do believe AC is relevant any miss is less damage taken, and more survivability.

    That is also your personal OP on clerics I could say the same of my cleric, FVS, palemaster, or any one of my characters. It is a matter of OP on what you find to you is the most survivable to you. This isn't a thread comparing monk to cleric though or if AC is relevant or not .

    Sorry for derail.
    Proud Officer of The Madborn

  16. #16
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    Considering AC is meaningless, you can get more prr as a non-monk, same dodge (if in robes), whereas heal amp only matters for low-healing classes. My cleric has heal amp purely for fun. The ability to use the spell Heal with prr, evasion and 26% dodge is greater than anything a monk gets.
    I mentioned earlier in the thread that my monk is getting 114 AC, 105 PRR. His dodge is 28%. My character is a L25 monk.

    The character does not need the Heal spell because, short of eElite, he is not getting hit often enough. Ivy Wraps regenerate hit points faster than the character loses them. In the rare cases where that doesn't happen a meditation break after the combat is enough to bring him back to full health.

    Since I don't typically solo eElite content the lack of pressure that comes from being in a group -- other group members share the aggro of the eElite mobs -- means that even getting hit in eElite still leaves me able to carry on without needing access to the Heal spell.

  17. #17
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilger View Post
    AC is not meaningless in this game at all.
    That is correct.

    There was a time when AC was meaningless. At that time HP plus DPS was all that mattered. Then the AC system changed.

    Since that time it has become a balancing game with many elements involved. Players are routinely pushing to find the highest sustainable numbers in several categories. And, the best defenses involve finding the best synergy and balance among all of the different factors.

    My monk combines 150% fortification, 114 AC, 105 PRR, 28% Dodge, 10% incorporeality (ghostly), 10% concealment (dusk) and 10/epic/10/good DR. At level that starts with something like 68% defense chance from AC. Let's look at that for a moment.

    Assume 100 rolls for hits, 68 miss due to AC. Of the 32 remaining 3 miss due to concealment. Of the 29 remaining 3 miss due to incorporeality. Of the 26 remaining 7 miss due to dodge. That means 19 of the 100 possible hits manage to make it through.

    Under most circumstances 150% fortification is enough to prevent any critical hits, so typical damage is no more than 100 points per hit. Of that 42 is stopped by PRR. Out of the remaining 58 another 10 is stopped by DR. This means in 100 attacks my monk is taking 19*48=912 damage in what is really a worst case scenario.

    But, my monk is attacking faster than the mobs. With TWF and the various bonuses to melee speed, even allowing for normal misses, he's getting in well over 200 hits during the same period of time. With Ivy Wraps giving him 4 HP per hit in regeneration he gets back 800 HP in the fight.

    So, worst case, my monk is down a bit over 100 HP when the fight is over. He meditates for >30 HP per tick, so roughly 20 seconds later he's at full health and ready to move to the next encounter.

    The key is finding the best balance and synergy among all of the different parts. My monk is a gimpy first life halfling. Consider what he could be like on a third or higher life and with a race choice really able to leverage the best healing amps.

    AC is not meaningless in DDO at the moment. To the contrary, used as part of the whole package it is an essential part in building a quality character.

  18. #18
    Community Member Ravand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    I mentioned earlier in the thread that my monk is getting 114 AC, 105 PRR. His dodge is 28%. My character is a L25 monk.
    Therigar, could you throw up your build and EDs? I can get by with a Cliff's Notes version as long as it's not too Acronym-heavy. I just TR'd a toon into a monk (my first one), currently at lvl 6, and I am looking for ideas. Also, having a blast I must say!

  19. #19
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravand View Post
    Therigar, could you throw up your build and EDs?
    Credit for the build goes to my son who borrowed ideas from others and researched all the synergy.

    Halfling, 32 point first life, 6/18/12/10/18/8 with stat increases in WIS, +4 tomes in all stats. Dodge, mobility, spring attack, stunning fist, combat expertise, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, toughness, IC:bludgeon, path of inevitable dominion, vorpal strikes, improved martial arts.

    Maxed destinies: GMoF, Exalted Angel, Shadowdancer, Unyielding Sentinel. All other destinies have 4 levels in them. Used fate tome for 2 fate points.

    Twists: Standing with Stone, Improved Combat Expertise, Dance of Flowers. Run in Unbreakable stance with Unyielding Sentinel as active destiny.

    US: Bane of Undeath, Brace for Impact (2), Consitution (3), Healing Hands, Endless Lay on Hands (3), Spark of Life, Hardened (3), Undying Vanguard. Hands are just filler points, there are probably more useful choices as the LoH amount is very trivial.

    Enhancements: 44ap in Shintao including 2 WIS, Kukan-Do, Violence Begets Violence, Meditation of War and Open Hand Mastery; 29ap in Ninja Spy including 1 DEX, 1 WIS, Sting of the Ninja and No Mercy (3); 7ap racial with all 5 core enhancements.

    Running with Sun Soul set at L25, need 4 commendations to upgrade Spiderspun to Sun Soul set.

    In mountain stance w CE on this gives 114 AC (no ship buffs), 105 PRR, 28% max dodge (currently standing at 26%), 30 spell resistance, DR 10/epic (2), DR 10/good, 150% fortification, 10% incorporeal standing (25% with Shadow Veil), 10% blur, Sun Soul procs 25% miss chance in mountain stance (not positive how this stacks with everything else).

    Currently using eHard Ivy Wraps enabling Ninja Spy DEX modifier to damage (modified 32 DEX w tomes, gear, enhancements but w/o ship buffs). Modified WIS is 42 w/o ship buffs, yugo potions, etc.

    Hope that helps.

  20. #20
    Community Member Ravand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post

    Hope that helps.
    You bet it did. Thank you, and +1 rep.

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