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  1. #81
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    I don't get what's hard to understand. At level 20 previously, I could get 8 damage from Divine Might. At level 20, I am unable to get the needed 46 CHA to get back my Divine Might damage and the now non-stacking Insight Str damage. And I don't foresee hitting that CHA number well into the upper Epics, if at all.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krelar View Post
    snip
    This is a quality assessment of the before and after. Thank you. I concur on fixing bugs and also vote for them to change the strength bonus to something that stacks.

  3. #83
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    That is a reasonable argument. As a TWF, what were your starting stat allocations?
    Don't remember offhand but I think at 32 points it was 16,15,11,9,8,16. And I used +2 Tomes. Now +3 Tomes.

    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    In KOTC tree it's trivial to pick up +2 STR which was never an option for paladins before. So now you're down 2 strength when in stance.
    16/2/2 Paladin/Ftr/Mnk. So I already had access to +1 Str from FTR.

    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    As a former DoS you were required to take one feat of Combat Expertise, Diehard, Shield Mastery, or Tower Shield Proficiency. Unless you acquired free diehard from a ranger splash you should have freed a feat up for something else more worthwhile.
    The Fighter splash gave me Tower Shield so I automatically qualified.

    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    I presume as a TWF you will be dealing the +2d6 vs evil at an 80% proc rate as well, so against evil you're doing +7 mainhand and +5.6 offhand = 12.6 additional damage vs evil, on top of the 5.6 damage you deal now, for a total of 18.2 vs evil, up from 10.8. If it matters to you, you can now take either the evil outsider or undead line as well for extra damage against those types which was not possible as a dos build before either.
    I sure hope so. But I'm not sure if it does apply to offhand yet. And that doesn't add to crit, which is a very large factor while dual wielding Khopeshes which are x3 crit multipliers. So every real point of difference is multiplied by 3 on crits.

    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    How do you see two weapon fighting factoring in with exalted smites - is it possible to double smite and if so how many extra smites and what level of exalted smite do you have now versus what you ran with before?
    I don't think I have any more Smites than I did before. I had 7 before and I have 7 now and I think I took all the extra Smites I could. The extra multiplier is nice and starts to help out for the loss of dps, but I haven't noticed the crits being any bigger, so I have to figure it's either a wash or still a loss.

    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    Is the easy access to at least 20% healing amp worthless to your build or does that balance out the change in dps?
    I'm Human, so I already had access to 20% healing amp and the way the Human Enhancement table is set up I couldn't get a single tier of it in the Human Table, so getting access to it in KoTC was still a wash. Plus considerable loss of Devotion which I can only make up for if I find a way to get Heal skill points. So my self-heal and healing of others is down.

    Edit: Acually not complete loss of Devotion since I got a bit back in the DoS table. But I'm still down by over 30 points.

    And add to that the loss of Con and %HP from not using a shield in DoS, my survivability has gone down further.

    At best my dps is equal to what it was and that required re-gearing just to get to what I had before. Luckily I'm high level. Heroic Levels would be an even bigger loss.

    Basically, I also have to figure that the new content will take into account the bonuses that other classes got, so I'll be even further behind compared to the other classes in the new content.

    I'm trying to figure out how to completely re-roll my character. Because Turbine certainly "re-balanced" the game but it didn't even come close to balancing the classes.
    Last edited by eonfreon; 08-22-2013 at 05:40 PM.

  4. #84
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    I predict monk 2 / pal 3 will become a popular combo, at least for certain builds looking to boost their survivability. That gets you Evasion, Divine Grace, 2 feats, max Exalted Smite / Might / Sacrifice, +d6 vs evil targets, +15% heal amp (10% KotC 5% Shintao); a few pts into SD also gets you Divine Righteousness and +3 LoHs. I'd do that on a druid, were it not for that pesky alignment restriction...
    Yeah that would rock on a 15 Bard, yet another way Bard's are weak.

  5. #85
    Community Member bennyson's Avatar
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    Default Old & new divine might

    NEW
    Divine Might :Channel Divinity: You gain an Insight bonus to Strength equal to your Charisma modifier.

    Okay, so its considered an Insight bonus that EQUALS your CHA MOD.

    So if I had 50 CHA (for example) I would get a +20 mod from it as a Insight bonus

    And if my paladin (for example) had 30 STR, that would be +20 CHA mod + 30 STR = 50 STR which is a +20 mod from STR which leads to +20 attack and damage

    OLD
    Divine Might: You gain a +8 Sacred bonus to damage.

    Okay, so its considered a Sacred bonus that adds +8 to damage

    And it does not help us get a better chance to hit

    By the looks of this, we can put less into STR and let CHA boost it to help us deal damage, this also means godly high saves as well as a better chance to hit something. This looks more like a benefit than a nerf to me.
    Last edited by bennyson; 11-11-2013 at 03:55 PM.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by bennyson View Post
    NEW
    Divine Might :Channel Divinity: You gain an Insight bonus to Strength equal to your Charisma modifier.

    Okay, so its considered an Insight bonus that EQUALS your CHA MOD.

    So if I had 50 CHA (for example) I would get a +20 mod from it as a Insight bonus

    And if my paladin (for example) had 30 STR, that would be +20 CHA mod + 30 STR = 50 STR which is a +20 mod from STR which leads to +20 attack and damage

    OLD
    Divine Might: You gain a +8 Sacred bonus to damage.

    Okay, so its considered a Sacred bonus that adds +8 to damage

    And it does not help us get a better chance to hit

    By the looks of this, we can put less into STR and let CHA boost it to help us deal damage, this also means godly high saves as well as a better chance to hit something. This looks more like a benefit than a nerf to me.
    To get the same damage as I did prior to these changes, I would need to get 48 CHA by level 20. Can you explain to be how I can get 48 CHA by level 20? Can you explain how I can get 48 CHA by, um, level 28 without gimping other stats?

    This change isn't good for Pure Paladins. It was good for Paladins with Fighter or Monk in them.

  7. #87
    Community Member Takllin's Avatar
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    It also does not stack with other Insightful Strength items, so for most people that had a 2 or 3 item, they do not get the full bonus.

    Tokun PDK 12 Monk/4 Paladin/4 Fighter (3x Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue/2x Bard, Barbarian PL)
    Tekllin Human 20 Sorc (3x Sorc, Wiz PL)
    Jadokis Purple Dragon Knight 18 Barbarian/1 Favored Soul/1 Fighter (3x Bard, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Rogue/2x Favored Soul/Heroic and Epic Completionist)
    Degenerate Matter

  8. #88
    Community Member Golddragon87's Avatar
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    Just browsing this thread so if I am repeating something someone else said sorry. Paladins as written have 2 Enhancement trees. So they should be given a third one in the future. If the tank tree is already done and a niche tree is done then the only thing I can see them making is a DPS tree or a caster tree. As I do not see them doing a caster tree for a paladin the DPS tree is all that realistically remains. So have patience and eventually Paladins should be fixed. How long until that happens only Turbine knows.
    Knowledge is power.
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  9. #89
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bennyson View Post
    By the looks of this, we can put less into STR and let CHA boost it to help us deal damage, this also means godly high saves as well as a better chance to hit something. This looks more like a benefit than a nerf to me.
    +2 CHA -> +1 STR (Divine Might) +1 saves (Divine Grace). So just in terms of DPS, investing in STR rather than CHA gets you more.

    The changes to Divine Might are worst for pure TWF pallies which had DM IV pre-U19 and best for MCed pallies, esp. if focused on tactics DCs.

  10. #90
    Community Member bennyson's Avatar
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    Default Champion of good & improved courage of heaven

    First of all guys, I wasn't finished with my damage calculations yet, so please no flames.

    Champion of Good
    You gain +2 Charisma, and increase the bonuses granted by Courage of Heaven by an additional +2. Any weapon you wield is considered Good aligned for purposes of bypassing damage reduction, deal 1d6 additional holy damage against evil opponents and an additional 2d6 light damage against evil undead or evil outsiders.

    Okay so this capstone works the same as Paladin Weapons of Good worked, just a few more bonuses and a new name

    And so its 1d6 holy damage vs. all evil and 2d6 light damage vs. undead and/or evil outsider


    Improved Courage of Heaven
    Increases the Aura bonuses granted by Courage of Heaven by an additional +2. The damage bonus against Evil enemies from Courage of Heaven improved to 2d6 additional damage.

    Okay so it damages all evil enemies but neutral enemies

    And so its 2d6 damage vs. all evil


    So the damage gain from Champion of Good and Improved Courage of Heaven is 2d6 damage vs. all evil + 1d6 holy damage vs. all evil + 2d6 light damage vs. undead and/or evil outsider

    And so the total vs. all evil damage from Champion of Good and Improved Courage of Heaven would be 3d12 damage vs. all evil

  11. #91
    Community Member bennyson's Avatar
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    Default Quick Question

    So if the bonus from Divine Might was considered a Sacred bonus instead of an Insight bonus, would that bring back the old +8 damage that everyone is paranoid about?

    Another thing, paladins did NOT get the Damage Boost action in the old enhancement system, which at max is +30% extra damage.

    So wouldn't the CHA mod bonus from Divine Might and the extra damage from Champion of Good and Improved Courage of Heaven plus the +30% extra damage from the Damage Boost action mean MORE damage?

    Also, I did not see anyone here on this thread said anything about the Damage boost action at all, did you people overlook this?

    And what about Rally? Its been changed to give +3 attack and damage as a morale bonus at max rank, it didn't do this at pre-u19, why overlook this?
    Last edited by bennyson; 11-12-2013 at 09:58 AM.

  12. #92
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bennyson View Post
    So if the bonus from Divine Might was considered a Sacred bonus instead of an Insight bonus, would that bring back the old +8 damage that everyone is paranoid about?
    No, because Strong Defense is typed as a Sacred STR bonus, so a Sacred Defender wouldn't get the full impact of DM. Personally, I think Sacred D. and Stalwart D. bonuses should've both been typed as Competence, since you can't use both stances anyway; then they could make DM a Sacred bonus so everything stacked. But ofc Turbine didn't consult me on U19...

    However, even then the problem doesn't completely go away. Let's suppose a best-case scenario of a pure pally w/DM IV (base CHA 20); how high do they need to get their CHA to get the same dmg bonus under U19?
    • THF: +8 dmg -> +11 STR bonus (1.5x STR) -> 32 CHA
    • S&B: +8 dmg -> +16 STR bonus -> 42 CHA
    • TWF (off-hand): +8 dmg -> +32 STR bonus (0.5x STR offhand) -> 74 CHA


    If you presume Insightful STR +3 item on a pre-U19 pally, then they need another +6 CHA bonus just to equal that. So the changes to DM are least bad for THF pallies and worst for TWF pallies.

    The other downside to the DM changes, as I mentioned before, is it hurts the DPS of any pally which didn't go STR-based. Considering all the options for non-STR-based builds in U19, it's a bit disappointing.
    Another thing, paladins did NOT get the Damage Boost action in the old enhancement system, which at max is +30% extra damage.
    True, this is an improvement for pure non-human pallies. OTOH, if you're playing a ftr-splashed human pally, you have human Dmg Boost + ftr Haste Boost; KotC dmg boost becomes just a backup.

    The main problem is U19 made pallies even more front-loaded than before - which I exploit in my Faithsworn Hunter </shameless plug> - while giving almost nothing in the way of new goodies at higher lvls.

  13. #93
    Community Member bennyson's Avatar
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    Guess we all should just rage and shout at Turbine until they do a complete overhaul and make paladins badass, both pure and none-pure.

  14. #94
    Community Member bennyson's Avatar
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    Default Something that I've Overlooked...

    Okay...I think I found something that would allow paladins to do the same damage as they did post-U19


    Deadly items

  15. #95
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gargahrensis View Post
    ...Neither The Knight of the Chalice tree or the Sacred Defender Tree offer much in the way of damage per second, unless you are fighting a lot of outsiders or undead...
    I actually think Paladins aren't even all that great against undead or evil outsiders anymore (in epic levels). You don't want a couple extra D6s that are separate from the main weapon damage. You want a higher combined damage number so that it adds to the big crits, cleaves, adrenalized smites, momentum swings, and gaudy master's blitz numbers that make up so much of a melee's DPS after level 20.

    And on that note, rogue sneak attack damage should no longer be a separate number.

    Paladins are better than ever as a splash class, and I really am pleased with the many possibilities that exist because of this, but there need to be stronger incentives to go past lvl 4 as a DPS build.
    Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 11-19-2013 at 06:25 PM.

  16. #96
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    I have a thf lvl24 pure paladin, have 30 cha and with divine might i get up to 49 str (+5 str tome from mabar). It's not properly geared or top dps but hits hard enough, saves are ok (45/35/35), enough to have fun.
    People worried about not having tower shield proficiency that can be scrolled (master's touch scrolls from portable hole). Not saying that's better than splashing, just that can be worked around if staying pure.

  17. #97
    Community Member badbob117's Avatar
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    Yeah, I was hoping the paladin class would get some sort of special epic smite feat or something. Some kinda dps booster is needed for this class.

    I had fun killing undead in mabar on my pally but it still fell a behind on the dps scale. The only real thing he had going for him were those big hunter of the dead light blasts on crits. In tank mode im pretty much indestructible but no matter how i swing it trying to build for dps, I am far behind all my other toons.

    Its messed up. They sure are intent keeping pallys down with the excuse they are self sufficient. I mean, that was understandable 6 years ago. but the game has totally changed now and paladins seem stuck in the same boat if not worse!

    We need a boost! Plain and simple.
    Born to play, Forced to work !

  18. #98
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    Isn't Nerfed Paladin redundant?

  19. #99
    Community Member bennyson's Avatar
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    Angry Need for an EMPOWERMENT!

    So with everyone responses to U19's change to the enhancements on the Paladin class, Turbine has gimped us Paladins for absolutely NO reason.

    They made all classes stronger, but they gimped us

    Divine Might is pathetic

    Holy Retribution is pathetic

    Paladins cant deal extra damage to both undead and evil outsiders, they need to deal more damage to one or the other, which is PATHETIC!

    Divine Might cant stack with insight STR items, which is pathetic

    Requiring a shield to get the extra STR, CON, and 20% HP bonus is pathetic

    Two Weapon Fighting Paladins are crashed beyond recognition

    Two Handed Fighting Paladins have been mortally wounded

    Does Turbine have a Paladin class hater among them or something?

  20. #100
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bennyson View Post

    Does Turbine have a Paladin class hater among them or something?
    Despite many rumors I do not actually work for Turbine.

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