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  1. #61
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Stuff I like about the pally changes:
    • Divine Might casts faster, no longer has a base CHA requirement, and lasts up to twice as long.
    • Divine Might, Divine Sacrifice, and Exalted Smite can be maxed out much earlier than before.
    • Extra LoHs can be front-loaded for 4 APs.
    • KotC provides extra DPS vs all Evil targets, not just EOs or undead.
    • Heal amp & energy drain immunity are no longer HotD-only.


    Stuff I dislike about the pally changes:
    • Divine Might doesn't stack w/insightful STR item and is more useful to THF than TWF pallies. My drow pallies are all about that. [EDIT: it's also useless to a DEX-, CON-, or CHA-based pally.]
    • The nerfs to defensive stance, specifically the reduction to PRR and the higher tiers being S&B-only.
    • The SD capstone sucks and I'm not too impressed by Glorious Stand.
    • I wish Vigor of Life and Sealed Life were all 1 tier lower, so (A) you don't have to spend 34 APs to get them all and (B) you could add them to an tank w/out locking out T5 SD abilities.


    Overall, I feel like the changes are good for pally splashes, bad for pure or almost-pure pallies; because all the buffs are front-loaded while most of the nerfs are back-loaded. I predict monk 2 / pal 3 will become a popular combo, at least for certain builds looking to boost their survivability. That gets you Evasion, Divine Grace, 2 feats, max Exalted Smite / Might / Sacrifice, +d6 vs evil targets, +15% heal amp (10% KotC 5% Shintao); a few pts into SD also gets you Divine Righteousness and +3 LoHs. I'd do that on a druid, were it not for that pesky alignment restriction...

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    I predict monk 2 / pal 3 will become a popular combo, at least for certain builds looking to boost their survivability. That gets you Evasion, Divine Grace, 2 feats, max Exalted Smite / Might / Sacrifice, +d6 vs evil targets, +15% heal amp (10% KotC 5% Shintao); a few pts into SD also gets you Divine Righteousness and +3 LoHs. I'd do that on a druid, were it not for that pesky alignment restriction...
    This is one of my objections to the new design: it's poorly conceived.

    I imagine you're exactly right in the builds people will come up with. That does sound like a good split on paper. So you roll it up, and when you finally get to taking your second pally level (or possibly not even until your 3rd level) you finally realize that you can't even use divine might because pallies don't get turn undead until level 4.

    So now in the middle of leveling up your build you have to scramble because abilities that the new UI says you can use aren't, in fact, usable. And will NEVER be usable if you stick to 3 pally unless you spend a twist on turn undead when you get to epics.

    You similarly might think you could get greater restoration out of those 3 pally levels, since that's a tier 3 ability. But no; pallies don't get remove disease until level 6. And that can't even be twisted in.

  3. #63
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    This is one of my objections to the new design: it's poorly conceived.
    I think the single biggest mistake in the Enhancement overhaul is that the tiered abilities should've been tied to the core enhancements, which are spread out more by class lvl (1/3/6/12/18/20). The idea that you can load up on so many abilities with just 5 lvls of a class (6 if you want the 3rd core enh) is simply ludicrous.

    Of course, then there's stuff like this:
    So you roll it up, and when you finally get to taking your second pally level (or possibly not even until your 3rd level) you finally realize that you can't even use divine might because pallies don't get turn undead until level 4.
    Good point and something which wouldn't happen in the old system, because you couldn't take DM before lvl 5. See also: Kensei needing GWF (min lvl 8 feat) to take one of their T5 (ML5) abilities.

    On the plus side, my pally-splashed CHA-based PDK builds don't have to worry about not taking Divine Might, because they wouldn't be able to use it anyway.

  4. #64
    Community Member die's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiderone View Post
    At the very least Pally's should get Tower Shield Proficiency for free. Along with TWF, ITWF or THF, ITHF for KOTC plus Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery for Defender. Something like Rangers the other specialized melee class....

    Add additional spells for KOTC based on Demons and Undead.
    Add additional spells for Defenders, like Heal.
    I like this thinking
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    Much like the Devs, looking at the small picture instead of the big picture.
    Small picture thinking is looking at what we now can see is a 1 to, at the extreme edge, 4 point per swing loss against neutral mobs while ignoring everything else that you can do with paladins that you couldn't in the old enhancement pass. You're not offering up a pre-u19 build, I suspect, for the reason that it will be trivial to point out ways that you're better off now (see below for another example). But for the sake of not coming off like I'm berating paladins, once again, I am not at all opposed to more buffs for the class, new enhancements, and a more dps focused tree, probably "hunter of constructs" for those really concerned with smiting golems and warforged.

    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Are you familiar with how adrenaline synergizes with exalted smite? That's based on crittable damage.
    Yes, I'm also familiar with how much easier it is to get extra smites and the top tier exalted smite. So for example your pre-u19 paladin build loaded Exalted Smite I and Extra Smite II and your post-u19 paladin build loads two helpings of Extra Smite Evil II and Exalted Smite III.

    So your own post u19 paladin is up by 2 extra smite evils and your exalted smites are now +2 crit range and +2 crit multiplier instead of only +1 crit multiplier! So again, factor that in with everything else, including your point about adrenaline, ok?

    In fact I just noticed your post-u19 build also is up by +2 str and +2 con compared to your pre-u19 build. So you're smiting harder than you were before, have +2d6 against evil you didn't have before, and have 2 higher strength. You lost 6 damage from the old divine might but once you add your +3 tome to your starting 14 charisma, add a +8 item and slot +2 insight and +1 exceptional, your 28 charisma will translate into another +6 str after factoring out insightful strength. So you gain back 4 damage in all.

    Your u19 differential: down 2 base damage, up +2d6 vs evil, +1 crit multiplier on exalted smites, and +2 crit range on exalted smites.

    What else am I missing?
    Last edited by hit_fido; 08-22-2013 at 03:55 PM.

  6. #66
    Community Member ahpook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    Ok!

    So base 18 cha then, +8 item +1 exceptional +3 insight +2 capstone = 32;

    That's a +11 str or +8 after non stacking for +4 damage. You're up from +6 to +11 against evil mobs but down from +6 to +4 against non evil. Throw up some numbers that factor in what the 2 more base damage does as far as crits, I'm listening.
    So if you only look at Pally's that had DM2 its only 1 dmg but if they had DM3 it was 2 dmg and DM4 its 3 damage. That assumes that they can rework their gear to get those CHA levels. Tell you what, lets switch our view to pallys with 12 CHA and no points in Divine Might and then there is no nerf at all!

    So you may consider 2 or 3 or 4 points per swing as not a big nerf but when you couple the DM change to the change in stances it results in losing 6 more points of str if not using a shield. No to mention CON and HP loss.

    When you take both those factors into account, the nerf is hard and the loss of damage (6 at a min) seems significant. That 6 dmg was applicable to all mobs and is barely compensated by the 7 extra dmg you will get when fighting 1 type of creature (evil). I think +1 damage to some mobs vs -6 to everything else should be considered significant.
    Last edited by ahpook; 08-22-2013 at 04:48 PM. Reason: Fixed thanks to correction from EllisDee

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    Your u19 differential: down 2 base damage, up +2d6 vs evil, +1 crit multiplier on exalted smites, and +2 crit range on exalted smites.

    What else am I missing?
    That I'd rather have the 2 base damage than the +2d6 vs evil and extra smite-y goodness. Though I do rather like getting exalted 3, I can't lie, but I'd still rather not lose base damage.

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by ahpook View Post
    barely compensated by the 7 extra dmg you will get when fighting 1 type of creature (evil outsiders)
    It's 2d6 vs all evil mobs, not just evil outsiders.

  9. #69
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    What else am I missing?
    You're missing that this is also a bigger nerf to TWF Paladins. I had DM3 = +6 to mainhand and + 4.8 offhand (80% proc) = 10.8 damage.
    Now I get +9 to STR (after figuring in my +3 Insight STR Items) = +4 to mainhand and + 1.6 offhand (50% damage and 80% proc) = 5.6 damage.

    That's pretty significant. Plus as a DoS 2 I lost +4 STR because i seldom use a shield (and even if I do it's then an even more significant loss of dps).

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    That I'd rather have the 2 base damage than the +2d6 vs evil and extra smite-y goodness. Though I do rather like getting exalted 3, I can't lie, but I'd still rather not lose base damage.
    So your contention is that you're doing less overall dps in quests and raids with 2 less base damage, +2d6 vs evil, +1 crit multiplier on exalted smites, and +2 crit range on exalted smites with adreneline factored in than you were with no base damage loss and none of the other stuff added in?

    Not about to try working through any numbers to see if you're right, so I'll just say, ok!

    Final thought: the new divine might scales with gear. And U19 has certainly raised the bar on that. Looks like +11 cha stat items may be possible, and we might guess they'll play with exceptional and insightful bonuses down the road too...

  11. #71
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    I'll repeat... because there's so much greater than +6 CHA and various Insight CHA gear aimed at melees. Let me see if my pure paladin can find a place to put that Sorc or Bard gear on his person, because the Devs won't let use craft those high level stats.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    You're missing that this is also a bigger nerf to TWF Paladins. I had DM3 = +6 to mainhand and + 4.8 offhand (80% proc) = 10.8 damage.
    Now I get +9 to STR (after figuring in my +3 Insight STR Items) = +4 to mainhand and + 1.6 offhand (50% damage and 80% proc) = 5.6 damage.

    That's pretty significant. Plus as a DoS 2 I lost +4 STR because i seldom use a shield (and even if I do it's then an even more significant loss of dps).
    That is a reasonable argument. As a TWF, what were your starting stat allocations?

    In KOTC tree it's trivial to pick up +2 STR which was never an option for paladins before. So now you're down 2 strength when in stance.

    As a former DoS you were required to take one feat of Combat Expertise, Diehard, Shield Mastery, or Tower Shield Proficiency. Unless you acquired free diehard from a ranger splash you should have freed a feat up for something else more worthwhile.

    I presume as a TWF you will be dealing the +2d6 vs evil at an 80% proc rate as well, so against evil you're doing +7 mainhand and +5.6 offhand = 12.6 additional damage vs evil, on top of the 5.6 damage you deal now, for a total of 18.2 vs evil, up from 10.8. If it matters to you, you can now take either the evil outsider or undead line as well for extra damage against those types which was not possible as a dos build before either.

    How do you see two weapon fighting factoring in with exalted smites - is it possible to double smite and if so how many extra smites and what level of exalted smite do you have now versus what you ran with before?

    Is the easy access to at least 20% healing amp worthless to your build or does that balance out the change in dps?

  13. #73
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    Take a u19 build and look at it, how DM works now versus how it worked before the nerf and it is not hard to see this is a nerf.

    All the talk about the 2d6vs evil is irrelevant as this was added because it was needed they should have merged in the benefits against undead too but I can get over that.

    Change back DM to how it use to work or change it so you get +8 damage with 20 base cha for those of us that had pure pallies and had DM4 before the nerf.

    Hit fido you don't seem to see we are losing out on the potential damage we should be doing regardless of if you work around it.
    Last edited by SilkofDrasnia; 08-22-2013 at 05:08 PM.
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    Somebody should definitely explain to Turbine that when they roll up a new GM that INT is not dump stat.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkofDrasnia View Post
    Take a u19 build and look at it how DM works no versus how it worked before the nerf and it is not hard to see this is a nerf.

    All the talk about the 2d6vs evil is irrelevant as this was added because it was needed they should have merged in the benefits against undead too but I can get over that.

    Change back DM to how it use to work or change it so you get +8 damage with 20 base cha for those of us that had pure pallies and had DM4 before the nerf.
    What was your pre-u19 build and how much dps loss do you have with your old enhancement loadout versus your new loadout?

  15. #75
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    What was your pre-u19 build and how much dps loss do you have with your old enhancement loadout versus your new loadout?
    This is where you are going wrong, you keep wanting to compare old vs new. The new "should be" higher as our feedback was that we were weak and needed a boost.

    What you should be doing is looking at a new build but one with DM as it worked before vs how it worked now. I feel a new build BUT with how DM worked before will be better than a new build with how DM works now, if your pure and twf like I was.

    PS, I can't really compare and test out stuff anymore as I TRed my pally, I am staying away from "end game" until I see where this is all going.

    Anyways I am tired of giving feedback that is ignored outright or gets mangled in its implementation, it's depressing. Off to play outside with my son.
    Last edited by SilkofDrasnia; 08-22-2013 at 05:16 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    Insulting the development team is not allowed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jendrak
    Somebody should definitely explain to Turbine that when they roll up a new GM that INT is not dump stat.

  16. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    So your contention is that
    My contention is the the changes to divine might both in how it works and in how it doesn't stack with gear is a nerf to divine might. Period.

    No matter how many fonboi gymnastics you contort your argument with, this simple fact remains.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkofDrasnia View Post
    Hit fido you don't seem to see we are losing out on the potential damage we should be doing regardless of if you work around it.
    Fair enough, what I'm trying to get down to is what is the actual change when post u19 is compared with pre u19 - not this "you need 46 cha to do the same dps" garbage being thrown around.

    It's also fair for someone to object that they don't care about doing damage to evil just as it's fair to object on the grounds that they care very deeply about doing damage to constructs. But that's all subjective and personal preference.

    What is objective is being able to state apples to apples, a given character pre u19 had x, y, and z and a given character post u19 has a, b, and c. Just baldly claiming there's 8 damage gone because they only see the divine might changing isn't accurate. What is it really? 5 less? 2 less? Less in this situation but more in that situation?

    Let's get a true accounting of what the differences are.

  18. #78
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    I've finally found a build I think I can live with for now. (Unless I quit do to the annoying bugs) I'm even ahead by an amazing 7 damage vs. evil! I do lose some saves, AC, PRR, 1 lay on hands, and a bit of damage vs non evil though.

    My biggest complaint is that while I basically come out the same as where I was, while my other toon has been buffed massively. My rogue is coming out an average of 30+ damage ahead of where he was before the update and has better dodge and saves to boot.

    I would be mostly happy if they would fix just a few things.

    The bugs:
    Not being able to change weapons without losing hit points.
    The darn movement while human/half-elf male uses a shield that finally, after 3 updates, made it to the know issue list.

    Divine Might:
    I don't even care if it stays the same amount of damage as I'm getting from it right now having and enhancement not stack with equipment just irks me.

    Defender Capstone:
    I want to be a tank, I really do. But going from a capstone that is useful just about every time you swing your weapon to one that I might use once a month at best is crazy. So I end up taking a bunch of stuff I don''t really want in the KoTC tree.

    Since some people keep asking here are the before and after builds.
    Old Enhancements:

    Code:
    Stats:
    Str: 49
    Dex: 22
    Con: 38
    Int: 12
    Wis: 24
    Cha: 30
    
    Hit Points: 1016
    Spell Points: 612
    Double Strike: 15%
    Armor Class: 143
    Physical Resistance Rating: 153 (51.03% Damage Reduction)
    Dodge: 3%
    
    Saves:
    Fortitude: 61
    Reflex: 47
    Willpower: 48
    
    Paladin:
    
    Armor Class Boost I (+5 AC, 20 seconds)
    Capstone: Weapons of Good (all weapons treated as good, 1d6 Holy damage vs evil, 2d6 light damage vs undead/evil outsiders)
    Divine Might III (+6 Damage for 1 minute, Sacred Bonus)
    Divine Sacrifice III (9d6 Light damage, costs 5HP and  1 SP)
    Exalted Smite II (smite evil gains +1 critical threat and damage)
    Extra Smite Evil IV (+4 Uses of Smite Evil)
    Divine Righteousness (+100% Threat for 1 minute)
    Toughness II (20 HP)
    Extra Lay on Hands I (+1 Uses of lay on Hands)
    Charisma I
    
    Aura: 
    Courage of Good I (+2 saves vs fear)
    Focus of Good I (+3 concentration)
    Bulwark of Good III (+3 AC)
    Resistance of Good III (+3 Saves)
    
    Defender of Siberys III
    +6 Strength (Sacred Bonus)
    +6 Constitution (Sacred Bonus)
    +20% Hit Points
    + 3 Saves (Sacred Bonus)
    +20 Physical Resistance
    +75% Threat when using a Shield
    +40% AC from armor and shields
    -10% Movement speed penalty
    +2 Turn Undead  Uses
    +1 Lay on Hands
    +3 Max Dex bonus to AC with Tower Shields and Heavy Armor
    Magic Circle against Evil
    Mass Shield of Faith
    Glorious Stand (DR 20/EPIC, double healing effects, etc)
    
    Human:
    
    Human Adaptability I (Strength)
    Improved Recovery III (Healing Amp 30%)
    Toughness II (20 HP)


    New Enhancements:

    Code:
    Stats:
    Str: 49
    Dex: 22
    Con: 38
    Int: 12
    Wis: 24
    Cha: 32
    
    Hit Points: 1038
    Spell Points: 613
    Double Strike: 15%
    Armor Class: 140
    Physical Resistance Rating: 148 (50.31% Damage Reduction)
    Dodge: 5%
    
    Saves:
    Fortitude: 58
    Reflex: 44
    Willpower: 45
    
    Paladin:
    
    Knight of the Chalice Tree: (8 AP spent on things I don't really want but had to in order to get the capstone or access higher tiers)
    
    Hunter of the Dead III (+2 hit and 2d6 damage, 500 damage or die on vorpal vs undead, could also have chosen evil outsiders)
    Capstone (+2 Charisma, +3d6 vs evil enemies, +2d6 light vs evil undead/outsiders, all weapons treated as good)
    Divine Might III (+Charisma Mod to Strength for 1 minute (+11 for me), Divine Sacrifice III (9d6 Light damage, costs 5HP and  1 SP)
    Extra Smite IV (+4 Smite Evil)
    Exalted Smite III (smite evil gains +2 critical threat and damage)
    Extra Turning III (+3 Turn Undead Uses, taken because I needed more AP to get capstone and to access higher tier abilities)
    Vigor of Life II (+20% Healing Amp)
    Extra Remove Disease I (+2 Remove disease, taken because I needed more AP to get capstone)
    Improved Restoration (Remove disease now applies greater restoration, taken because I needed more AP to get capstone)
    Strength I
    Charisma I
    Censure Demons (on vorpal stun chaotic outsiders, taken because I needed more AP to get capstone)
    
    Defender of Siberys Tree: (No wasted AP I would actually like to spend more points here but the capstone is awful)
    Holy Bastion (+36 HP, +36 positive spell power, +6% fortification)
    Divine Righteousness (+100% Threat, temp HP equal to charisma for 1 minute)
    Sacred Armor Mastery (+3 AC and maximum dexterity bonus of armor)
    Sacred Shield Mastery (+15% Shield AC and +3 max dex bonus with tower shields)
    Reinforced Armor (+50% AC Armor)
    Harbored by Light I (+10 PPR)
    Extra Lay on Hands 1
    Sacred Defense (w/ Extra tree enhancements)
    +6 Strength
    +6 Constitution
    +20% Hit Points
    +3 Saves (Competence Bonus)
    +25 PPR (10 base, 15 from enhancements)
    +125% Threat (50% Base, 75% from enhancements, not sure how they stack)
    
    Human: (1 Ap wasted on an action boost I have no interest in so I can get the healing amp, I would love to get the higher tiers like I have on live but they are way too expensive)
    
    Improved Recovery I (Healing Amp 10%)
    Defense Boost I (+10 AC and PPR, 20 seconds)
    Last edited by Krelar; 08-22-2013 at 05:22 PM.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    My contention is the the changes to divine might both in how it works and in how it doesn't stack with gear is a nerf to divine might. Period.

    No matter how many fonboi gymnastics you contort your argument with, this simple fact remains.
    The topic is, did the new enhancements result in a nerfed paladin class.

    In your case I guess being down 2 base damage, up +2d6 vs evil, up +1 crit multiplier on exalted smites, and up +2 crit range on exalted smites, plus whatever else is different, is a nerfed paladin. Ok!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkofDrasnia View Post
    This is where you are going wrong, you keep wanting to compare old vs new. The new "should be" higher as our feedback was that we were weak and needed a boost.

    What you should be doing is looking at a new build but one with DM as it worked before vs how it worked now. I feel a new build BUT with how DM worked before will be better than a new build with how DM works now, if your pure and twf like I was.

    Anyways I am tired of giving feedback that is ignored outright or gets mangled in its implementation, it's depressing. Off to play outside with my son.
    Your feedback is welcome and fine, but the question isn't are the post-u19 paladin enhancements we got worse than the post-u19 enhancements we wanted (they are and that is not being argued), the question is are the post-u19 paladin enhancements we got worse than the pre-u19 enhancements we had. And how much worse (or better) are they actually, once we cut through the "zomg 46 charisma or gimp" talk.

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