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  1. #21
    Community Member lugoman's Avatar
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    Would have been nice if the KotC line would have had better save boosting features. Make DoS hp/ac and Kotc saves/heal amp.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathblaze View Post
    It's more like Paladins have now been "mainstreamed" into the DPS role (which it was not originally built for) due to the general public's perspective on how to overcome the game mechanics.
    I think this is the problem - people evolved an expectation that Paladin is an innately DPS class. They're not, they always were "meant" to be tanks. Its just that the game mechanics favor DPS builds so heavily, people figured out how to squeeze a lot of DPS out of their Paladins.

    That's not to say that Paladins shouldn't have good DPS. I'm just saying that PURE paladins shouldn't expect a primary-DPS role to be "supported" by the Enhancement system, anymoreso than a Ranger or Sorcerer should "expect" to have a tank tree.

    If you want to take your primary class outside its "archetype" role, you can still do that the way you always have - splashing into a multiclass. The EP makes it easier than ever to add functionality through even a small splash in another class. Take 2 Rogue, go into Thief-Acrobat and use a Qstaff (and get Evasion, coupled with your crazy-high Pally saves) with +15% attack speed and 25% doublestrike. Take 2 Rgr, go into Tempest and TWF. Take 2 Fighter, extra feats and Battle Meditation. Make an Elf Dex-based AA Pally, go crazy After U20, there might even be something in Cleric Warpriest you can splash for.

  3. #23
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    I think this is the problem - people evolved an expectation that Paladin is an innately DPS class. They're not, they always were "meant" to be tanks. Its just that the game mechanics favor DPS builds so heavily, people figured out how to squeeze a lot of DPS out of their Paladins.

    That's not to say that Paladins shouldn't have good DPS. I'm just saying that PURE paladins shouldn't expect a primary-DPS role to be "supported" by the Enhancement system, anymoreso than a Ranger or Sorcerer should "expect" to have a tank tree.

    If you want to take your primary class outside its "archetype" role, you can still do that the way you always have - splashing into a multiclass. The EP makes it easier than ever to add functionality through even a small splash in another class. Take 2 Rogue, go into Thief-Acrobat and use a Qstaff (and get Evasion, coupled with your crazy-high Pally saves) with +15% attack speed and 25% doublestrike. Take 2 Rgr, go into Tempest and TWF. Take 2 Fighter, extra feats and Battle Meditation. Make an Elf Dex-based AA Pally, go crazy After U20, there might even be something in Cleric Warpriest you can splash for.
    That is not how Paladin is defined in 3.5 D&D. A paladin is a flat out killer albeit restricted by moral code of course. A paladin charging on a horse with a lance doing a full on smite, with divine might, etc. is basically the highest single damage attack by a non spell caster in pen & paper. It is not our fault that the devs can not figure out how to make a paladin. The forums have been complaining about this for years the devs do not care is the take home point.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by deathblaze View Post
    in terms of DPS, TWF > THF for Paladins due to how their abilities proc with off-hand attacks.
    I don't think that's true any more. They still get better offhand procs from TWF using divine sacrifice and smites, but they no longer get any advantage from divine might.

    Does zeal give double offhand procs, or is doublestrik only applicable to mainhand attacks?

    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    I was disappointed that the enhancement to eliminate movement penalty is also limited to sword and board.
    Wait, what? Seriously?

  5. #25
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    My main pally - after -carefully- LRing, picking feats, respecting enhancements and choosing spells, I've noticed:

    - Maybe things aren't QUITE as bad as they "seemed" at first but requiring a shield effectively means I can't use my EAGA or other good DPS weapon, forcing us to S&B which I would/could love -IF- I could acquire a good enough 1 hander.

    - A lot of this is perception. I see the wisdom of Legendary Dreadnaught and will have to take a look - I hate the thought of sacrificing some of my Undying Sentinel picks, especially regenerating LOH's, so I will have to grind enough ED XP for both the Legendary AND fate points to keep the stuff I like from Sentinel.

    - For the "Expert" who knows the EDs in depth, knows how to farm ED XP (and is willing to), can find ways to attain optimal gear for the build and build the enhancements carefully, Pallys might turn out to be a very viable class - let's see how the expansion content rebalance and gear changes come out. But it will take time, and work, and knowledge, which a lot of casual players may/don't have. TO them, the class will appear just to be a tank and nothing else.

    (I left "that other MMO" a few years back because I felt forced into tanking.)

    - I don't understand why Pallies must choose to invest all those points for either outsiders or undead. I decided investing my points too much in either was pointless and spent more on defense and racials...

    So as someone above mentioned, different people will perceive Pally's merit based on their knowledge and experience and time available with DDO. I've been here 4 years and I'm still learning. I didn't want to have to farm ED XP but it looks like my hand is forced.

    I regret that the public perception will be that "Pallies are worthless so we'd rather not have them in our group".

    tl;dr so now my Pally can become a solid tree and can stand toe to toe with the Big Bad Mobs, hitting them round after round for some modest DPS and being able to save versus a lot of their spells and heal as we go - will mobs, especially bosses, eventually be so afraid/tired of our survivability they'll give up?

    A couple ideas:

    How about giving pallies a little more offense in their spell selection? I don't find many pally spells that useful at epic levels.

    How about allowing a different kind of additional defense when not using a shield? Are you really so easily able to get to me while I'm chopping at your head with this Big Bad Massive Two Handed Axe? Really?
    Last edited by My2Cents; 08-21-2013 at 04:02 PM.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    I think this is the problem - people evolved an expectation that Paladin is an innately DPS class. They're not, they always were "meant" to be tanks.
    I wonder which MMO is responsible for this belief?

  7. #27
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    When it was announced that HOTD and KOTC would be merged, I'm pretty sure everyone thought that finally paladins would be able to be the ultimate Undead AND Evil Outsider killer. Then the trees for paladin were unveiled...

    What we got instead was two trees. One tree, Sacred Defender, is nearly a carbon copy of the Stalwart Defender tree. The other tree, KOTC, merged everything about KOTC and HOTD, except for the Undead and Evil Outsider killing. On top of the "incomplete" merger of the two prestige classes, Paladins gained pretty much just one new Ability, Holy Retribution. Everything else in the trees are old abilities that were tinkered so they suck less, for example the Censure Demons and Remove Disease stuff.

    I see laziness in the design for the paladin trees. Imagine if the HOTD and KOTC weren't merged. The Paladin would have been able to pick up both Undead and Evil Outsider killing stuff, plus additional enhancements would have been included. It would be similar to the flexible and stacking choices that Rangers get with the Arcane Archer and Deepwood Stalker. Yes, the choice would be to invest more heavily into one or the other, but at least we'd have a choice. And more abilities to choose from.

    If HOTD and KOTC are to stay together, Paladins should be able to gain both Undead and Evil Outsider bonuses. The Devs have shown that they don't want to give Paladins more choices, so there's no reason to hamper Paladins, especially pure paladins, but pigeonholing them into either an Undead killer OR an Evil Outsider killer. Especially since HOTD were given the Censure Demon (plus Censure Outsider) perk, while the KOTC gained none of the Undead killing perks.

  8. #28
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    I dunno man, seems like they have to give *something* to people who want to play sword and board too, so they feel like they are gaining from their niche in a way that isn't just freely available to any twf character. Not only that but make the stances work in any style and we're back to people splashing 6 fighter or 6 paladin just for the stance bonuses on top of their uber dps primary classes. What else can they give to s&b?
    You realize that they nerfed S&B right? The old PrE included at no AP cost, 20 extra PRR and +75% extra threat "while equipping a shield" this was regardless of being in stance or not. It was a bonus Eladrin put in when he nerfed Intim to be DPS based, and made the shield mastery feats better and put in the shield bashing feat that didn't work right and has never been fixed. Bacause they made shields mandatory to get stances now, they decided to eliminate the bonus that was supposed to ENCOURAGE shield use.

    Talk about a double wammy...

    They also nerfed S&B by taking away your THF option for trash mobs that didn't need you to be as defensive so you could put the shield away and swing two handed. Before you could swap to a great axe and at least enjoy the Stance STR and CON bonus, you could also use this to gather up some MOB aggro to make your otherwise hit ot miss cleaves more useful... now you lose stance benefits every time you so much as switch weapons (even if you have a shield equipped the whole time) which can kill you if you swap to a smiter with a WF beating on you and you're low on health.

    I hope other Pali players speak up and demand some Warpriest/Sorc Acolyte attention. Bard players refuse to speak up, they are apparently okay with their mostly flavor PrE's, and there's almost none of them anyway so Bards are going to stay the weakest class in the game, but there are lots of Pali players and we deserve the present PrE's to be comparable to the massive buffage every other class got in the pass (except the Bard's of course they got a minor nudge but they needed a big boost).

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Does zeal give double offhand procs, or is doublestrik only applicable to mainhand attacks?
    Doublestrike only applies to mainhand attacks. There's a separate Offhand Doublestrike mod (Tempests get 25% at capstone, I believe) for offhand attacks.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    I hope other Pali players speak up and demand some Warpriest/Sorc Acolyte attention. Bard players refuse to speak up, they are apparently okay with their mostly flavor PrE's, and there's almost none of them anyway so Bards are going to stay the weakest class in the game, but there are lots of Pali players and we deserve the present PrE's to be comparable to the massive buffage every other class got in the pass (except the Bard's of course they got a minor nudge but they needed a big boost).
    We've been ignored for the most part during this whole New Enhancement Pass. I think the only major change was the horrible Holy Retribution being slightly less horrible.

    It sounds like after the next update, Paladins will get knocked down another peg on the DPS totem pole. The Devs seemed very keen into making the Warpriest a full blown melee DPS tree on par to other melee trees. So I expect that the general DPS for melee Clerics will be surpassing Paladins when it comes to all non-undead or non-evil outsider mobs. But thankfully for them, they have better healing, Blade Barriers and Divine Punishment to fall back on for them. So, yeah, Clerics will become the all-in-one package, while Paladins will be stuck as being a Splash class.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    You realize that they nerfed S&B right? The old PrE included at no AP cost, 20 extra PRR and +75% extra threat "while equipping a shield" this was regardless of being in stance or not.
    From the enhancement PDF,

    without shield in stance: up to +125% threat, 25 PRR, +3 saves, -10% movement.

    with shield in stance: the above, plus up to +6 CON, +6 STR, +20% HP, no movement penalty.

    Not understanding how this is nerfing S&B by comparison to the old system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    They also nerfed S&B by taking away your THF option for trash mobs that didn't need you to be as defensive so you could put the shield away and swing two handed. Before you could swap to a great axe and at least enjoy the Stance STR and CON bonus, you could also use this to gather up some MOB aggro to make your otherwise hit ot miss cleaves more useful... now you lose stance benefits every time you so much as switch weapons (even if you have a shield equipped the whole time) which can kill you if you swap to a smiter with a WF beating on you and you're low on health.
    Pretty sure the weapon swapping thing is not WAI so let's call it a bug they need to fix. Aside from that, going two hander still nets you up to +125% threat, 25 PRR and +3 saves. Or keep the shield, swing a bsword or daxe, and keep getting your THF benefit like glancing blows? Seems like there are still options, so is your issue that you'd rather see the + stat and hp given to the stance and the threat, prr and saves given to the shield stance (flip the benefits)?

    Anyway I do not want to argue for the position that paladins are just fine and a relatively very attractive class. They aren't. I'm interested in what the actual power differential is, and I am pretty sure it is not as bad as some people think from only taking an initial glance at the new enhancements while thinking old way like needing diehard and tower shields.

  12. #32
    Community Member honkuimushi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    Acknowledged. It takes four ranks to unlock GMoF and 3 more ranks to unlock LD, so we're talking about 1,800,000 XP before you can start building up LD, that's only partway to 24. If DPS is your goal for your character then I don't think it's that arduous of a journey to get there. If you're a casual player you're benefiting a ton from the repeat penalty change as you can make your way to that much XP running only epic normal at a slow pace and will keep getting your repeat penalty reset.
    But remember you're going through Grandmaster of Flowers. Unless you have Monk levels on your Paladin and are using centered weapons, very few of the abilities actually work. And unless you detoured through Exalted Angel, you'll only have 1 Fate Point to work with. You'll get your second when you reach level 1 or 2 of GMoF, Maybe with an old fashioned Farm it would be easy, but it's tougher if you have to play the quests, soloing as necessary-- especially if you want to keep a Hard streak going. It can be done, but I don't see it as very fun.

    In terms of the Enhancements, I still have a lot of problems with the Paladin ones. In KotC, general DPS is still lacking. It would have been nice to see some general bonuses to TWF/THF styles. Holy Retribution would be awful at a tier 3-- as a tier 5 it's cringeworthy. Sealed Life was part of what HotD got at level 12 for 2 AP. Now it's a tier 5 ability? Really? I don't really like the new DM much either. It's probably ok for Fighter multiclasses with tactics, but it feels like a nerf to most other characters. It's a real nerf to those characters that were Dex or Charisma based.

    Then there's the fact that if you want healing ability, you need to take Sacred Defender for Positive spell power-- even as a KotC. Also, they put the Aura enhancements at tier 3 and 4. The Aura has been a big part of Paladins since 2006. While DPS oriented Paladins may have skimped on the AC Aura, the save aura was pretty popular. But to get enough progression to get to that level, you have to take a bunch of the "Shield almost required" enhancements.

    There are a lot of other problems if you want to go predominately Sacred Defender, as people have been pointed out, but at least they can take most of the big enhancements fairly easily. Exalted Smite is only Tier 3 and DM is tier 2. And at least all of them work in all melee styles and don't require any conflicting stances.

  13. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    Everything else in the trees are old abilities that were tinkered so they suck less, for example the Censure Demons and Remove Disease stuff.
    I see no tinkering to the remove disease effect; prior to U19 my HotD pally had 11 greater restorations per rest via remove disease. With the enhancement pass, it's looking like he will have exactly the same thing.

    (HotD tiers 1, 2 and 3 added lesser/regular/greater restoration to your remove disease effect. Each tier also gave you +2 turn undead and +2 remove disease. So my pally is now hurting for turns compared to pre-U19.)

  14. #34
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    From the enhancement PDF,

    without shield in stance: up to +125% threat, 25 PRR, +3 saves, -10% movement.
    Before it was +75% threat from equipping shield +75% threat from stance, +20 PRR from equipping shield, +20 PRR from stance. That's 150% threat and 40 PRR

    Before using a two hander you got +6 STR +6 CON 75% threat, 20 PRR.

    Clearly no matter how you slice it this was a rather severe nerf... that's before we start talking about needing 42 Charisma to get Divine Might back to being +8 Damage and not stacking with insightful it's actually more than that off hands it's 48 Charisma needed (and you need to hit that mark without putting more than 14 into Charisma (16 if Drow) and without dropping a single point of STR at build time (doing that to is a net loss of DPS) and all level ups into STR) to get back to where Pali's were before.

    It really doesn't matter how you slice it, Pali's were Nerfed hard.
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 08-21-2013 at 08:21 PM.

  15. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Clearly no matter how you slice it this was a rather severe nerf... that's before we start talking about needing 42 Charisma to get Divine Might back to being +8 Damage and not stacking with insightful it's actually more than that off hands it's 48 Charisma needed (and you need to hit that mark without putting more than 14 into Charisma (16 if Drow) and without dropping a single point of STR at build time (doing that to is a net loss of DPS) and all level ups into STR) to get back to where Pali's were before.
    A THF who had DM3 & insightful +2 item needs 30 cha to break even, so even us slackers got nerfed by it.

    If it stacked properly I'd only need 26 cha to break even, which is what I have.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    It really doesn't matter how you slice it, Pali's were Nerfed hard.
    Here's a pure paladin enhancement rollout that offers the following:

    always active:
    +3d6 vs evil
    +4d6 vs evil outsiders OR +2d6 vs undead and destroy/500 light vs undead on vorpal
    +2d6 light damage vs evil outsiders and undead
    +3 extra turns
    virtually unlimited +cha modifier to str
    +4 extra smites
    exalted smites: +2 crit range, +2 crit mult
    +30% damage action boost
    divine sacrifice: +1 crit mult, +9d6 light damage
    divine sacrifice: -5 hp, -1 sp, +6 temp sp vs evil outsider/undead
    +30% healing amp
    immune to energy drain
    +2 cha
    +2 con
    +3 extra loh
    +5 ac
    +3 saves
    +34 hp
    +34 positive sp
    +8% fort

    in stance, all of the above plus:
    +25 prr
    +125% threat
    +3 saves
    -10% movement

    in shield stance, all of the above plus:
    +6 con
    +6 str
    eliminate movement penalty

    You can basically combine many of the features of what were previously three different pre into one package. You're upset about +8 damage from divine might, but you constantly deal an additional +2d6 (ave 7) to evil that you didn't before and you still get your cha modifier added to strength on top of that, so how are you not actually coming out ahead vs evil? What's even better you no longer need a 20 base charisma for the best possible divine might, so spend 2 cha worth of build points back to str and int if you want! What are you so worried about that isn't evil? The added boost to hit and to str based tactics dc is a fringe benefit of the new divine might. These divine might complaints are bogus. +2d6 vs evil is ave 7 damage, figure in a charisma of merely 14+8 item+1 exceptional+3 insight=26 which gives you +8 str or +4 damage, and now you're up by 4 more damage to 11. 11 > 8 but if you want to complain about your +3 insight str not stacking call it 2 more damage and 9 is still > 8. Look, I'm comparing a 14 base charisma vs a 20 base charisma and the 14 base charisma paladin is still coming out ahead with the +2d6 vs evil and new divine might! So enough with how divine might ruined the paladin.

    You can be in stance and still deal the +4d6 to evil outsiders that used to be exclusive to kotc or +2d6 and save or die on vorpals to undead. You can't choose both enemy types, ok, I'm fine combining them, but I didn't think hotd even gave extra damage vs undead before so now you have that option too.

    The current system gives you 30% heal amp, the +2d6 extra vs evil, more damage vs your choice of evil outsider or undead, the normal stance bonuses that can be active all the time, and the option to throw on a shield for even more defense. It just doesn't look like a nerf to me. If you want even more prr trade the tier 5 kotc stuff below for harbored in light for +25 more prr to get your 40 total prr back. Guess what - you can still get that 40 prr plus the 20% healing amp plus the stance plus the enemy damage, which you never could in the old system.

    What have you lost that is so egregious that being a combined dos/kotc/hotd with a good mix of everything doesn't make up for? What am I missing?

    knight of the chalice
    1 core: slayer of evil
    3 extra turning x3
    2 extra smite x2
    1 core: courage of heaven
    4 divine might x2
    2 extra smite x2
    4 damage boost x2
    1 core: slayer of evil ii
    3 improved restoration x3
    2 vigor of life
    6 exalted smite x3
    3 divine sacrifice x3
    1 core: improved courage of heaven
    2 vigor of life
    3 passion x3
    1 core: slayer of evil iii
    2 vigor of life
    2 sealed life
    1 core: champion of good
    44

    sacred defender
    1 core: holy bastion
    3 extra lay on hands x3
    3 improved sacred defensex3 : +15 prr
    1 core: divine righteousness
    3 bulwark aura x3
    3 improved sacred defense x3: +3 saves
    1 core: sacred defense
    3 resistance aura x3
    3 improved sacred defense x3: +75% threat
    3 greater sacred defense x3: +6 str
    2 +1 con
    1 core: redemption
    1 swift defense
    3 greater sacred defense x3: +6 con
    2 +1 con
    1 core: glorious stand
    34

    78 total? Drop whatever you think you can spend better that I did above on any racial stuff you want and start smiting.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I see no tinkering to the remove disease effect; prior to U19 my HotD pally had 11 greater restorations per rest via remove disease. With the enhancement pass, it's looking like he will have exactly the same thing.

    (HotD tiers 1, 2 and 3 added lesser/regular/greater restoration to your remove disease effect. Each tier also gave you +2 turn undead and +2 remove disease. So my pally is now hurting for turns compared to pre-U19.)
    Blah, my bad. I could have sworn that Remove Curse or Neutralize Poison was added at the final rank.

    So yeah, it looks like just Censure Demon and Divine Sacrifice's Passion were the only things tinkered for the better in the KOTC tree. So it looks like I was giving the Devs more credit than they deserve when it comes to paladins... and if you've been reading my posts for the past few months, it hasn't been very much for these trees.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post

    You can basically combine many of the features of what were previously three different pre into one package. You're upset about +8 damage from divine might, but you constantly deal an additional +2d6 (ave 7) to evil that you didn't before and you still get your cha modifier added to strength on top of that, so how are you not actually coming out ahead vs evil?
    THIS.

    Either everyone is just theorycrafting off ddowiki/forums or just blind to the fact that you're getting an additional +2d6 against ALL evil enemies. So this + the new DM would give you more sustainable DPS than what the old short burst DM would have given against evil.

    EDIT: That's not to say that the new DM is any better. Insight bonus? Come on, really?

    Also, I don't get all this KotC vs SD talk, like we can only go one way or another.
    It's possible now to get almost all the benefits of ye olde DoS while getting all the benefits of KotC at the same time.
    Sure, the new enhancements could really use some work/loving but it's not all that bad as people make it out to be.
    With that being said, I still think that the need to have shields wielded for certain enhancements should be scrapped.
    If I can't be raged, I would expect to have something at least similar/relevant while in stance!
    Last edited by deathblaze; 08-22-2013 at 03:20 AM.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathblaze View Post
    THIS.

    Either everyone is just theorycrafting off ddowiki/forums or just blind to the fact that you're getting an additional +2d6 against ALL evil enemies. So this + the new DM would give you more sustainable DPS than what the old short burst DM would have given.

    Also, I don't get all this KotC vs SD talk, like we can only go one way or another.
    It's possible now to get almost all the benefits of ye olde DoS while getting all the benefits of KotC at the same time.
    Sure, the new enhancements could really use some work/loving but it's not all that bad as people make it out to be.
    With that being said, I still think that the need to have shields wielded for certain enhancements should be scrapped.
    If I can't be raged, I would expect to have something at least similar/relevant while in stance!
    No because the other classes got a lot more. 2d6 pfft and I would take the shorter burst dm on my twf pally. Need a shield to get hp or strength so what good is SD other then a bit of prr for an offensive pally.
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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathblaze View Post
    Either everyone is just theorycrafting off ddowiki/forums or just blind to the fact that you're getting an additional +2d6 against ALL evil enemies. So this + the new DM would give you more sustainable DPS than what the old short burst DM would have given.
    Because that 2d6 Good damage works so well against those Epic Rats, Epic Spiders and other animals/vermin with stupidly inflated HP that the missing Divine Might and Insight STR damage would have given. Then there's also the "very rarely seen mobs in the game", such as Inanimate Objects, Constructs, Elementals, Mephits and such that benefit so nicely from the extra damage taken from paladins while the extra 2d6 damage does nothing. Maybe I should Smite these mobs a bit more often and see how that helps...
    Last edited by oradafu; 08-22-2013 at 02:47 AM.

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