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  1. #21
    Community Member Pehtis's Avatar
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    * Feat: Sap. 18 - 30 second daze is nowhere long enough for higher level battles. Surely there are better feats such as Oversized to swing 2 khopeshes.

    * Cleave I & 2. Not sure why for Tempest. Does cleave double strike? I haste pot for dps/double strikes and kill quickly. I add speed action boost on bosses for even more dps. Dance of Death now provides Tempest multi attacks if get mobbed. So why use up valuable feats? Don't get me wrong I love cleave on my s&b Stalwart and is useful on my monk.
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  2. #22

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    OTWF is not needed; swing away with two khopeshes. To-hit is a non-issue.

    Sap has no save. It's effective even in EE.

    Cleave and Great Cleave for a tempest are similar to how they are for a monk. If you like them on your monk, same deal and for the same reasons.

    I am not impressed with dance of death. The cooldown is prohibitive.

  3. #23
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    OTWF is not needed; swing away with two khopeshes. To-hit is a non-issue.

    Sap has no save. It's effective even in EE.

    Cleave and Great Cleave for a tempest are similar to how they are for a monk. If you like them on your monk, same deal and for the same reasons.

    I am not impressed with dance of death. The cooldown is prohibitive.
    Also, (great)cleave opens up some nice ED options.

    Also, I currently have Otwf, but will be dropping it during my LR. Balizarde in my off hand will take care of any to-hit issues that MAY arise, situationally, plus it's just darn good on its own anyways.

  4. #24
    Community Member SiliconShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    OTWF is not needed; swing away with two khopeshes. To-hit is a non-issue.

    Sap has no save. It's effective even in EE.

    Cleave and Great Cleave for a tempest are similar to how they are for a monk. If you like them on your monk, same deal and for the same reasons.

    I am not impressed with dance of death. The cooldown is prohibitive.
    Whoever told you that too hit is not an issue is sorely mistaken. This has been discussed recently showing the math as to why it's wrong and how badly you are hurting your DPS.

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...WF-TWB-and-TWD

    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconShadow View Post
    Yes it's 2% when you calculate it like that and 2% would still be very important at that attack speed work out the accumulative benefit over 133 attacks per minute of haste boost tempest III which also will soon be more with the added double strike in the new tree ref DDO Wiki. (note your formula is wrong its (ToHit + 10.5) / (TargetAC * 2) + 25% but it still works out at 1~3% depending on the hit and ac involved the higher the target AC the lower the deviation)

    However it isn't quite that simple as the to hit is rounded to the closest 5%, meaning a 2 different can mean 0% or a 5% difference to hit. The breakpoints are every 4 to hit vs AC.

    This penalty can therefore become quite significant against anything that has equal or higher AC than your to hit, the difference is the same as 10% of the targets AC score.

    In short there are 27 cases up to 100AC in which it matters for my to hit of 71, 7 of those a 71 has 5% more chance than a 69, so that's a 26% less misses on those attacks that can miss. Or in total an increase of 7% to hit which isn't 2% at all.

    Yes it's significant.
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  5. #25
    Community Member gorocz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pehtis View Post
    * Feat: Sap. 18 - 30 second daze is nowhere long enough for higher level battles. Surely there are better feats such as Oversized to swing 2 khopeshes.

    * Cleave I & 2. Not sure why for Tempest. Does cleave double strike? I haste pot for dps/double strikes and kill quickly. I add speed action boost on bosses for even more dps. Dance of Death now provides Tempest multi attacks if get mobbed. So why use up valuable feats? Don't get me wrong I love cleave on my s&b Stalwart and is useful on my monk.
    Great Cleave is a prerequisite for Overwhelming Critical feat... And honestly, without the need for Spring Attack, this build has a lot of free feats...
    Orien - Gorrea - Second Life Tempest Ranger

  6. #26
    Community Member Pehtis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    OTWF is not needed; swing away with two khopeshes. To-hit is a non-issue.

    Sap has no save. It's effective even in EE.

    Cleave and Great Cleave for a tempest are similar to how they are for a monk. If you like them on your monk, same deal and for the same reasons.

    I am not impressed with dance of death. The cooldown is prohibitive.

    I use cleave on monk for Ki boost. Tempest has no Ki. I also use it situationally as I don't want too much aggro which is what Cleave provides. However if Cleave works with clicky attacks such Adrenaline/Double Strike then this becomes a must for Tempest. Does it?

    It is true Sap has no save. It's just I don't think it lasts long enough for the feat cost. I just prefer the DPS value that Oversized brings to the table.

    I agree with you on the cool down on Dance of Death. Then again it is a very powerful clicky as I believe it does not interrupt your attack chains. Add the speed/doublestrike boosts and you can expect lots of damage and aggro with Dance of Death. Definitely situational.
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  7. #27
    Community Member SiliconShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pehtis View Post
    I use cleave on monk for Ki boost. Tempest has no Ki. I also use it situationally as I don't want too much aggro which is what Cleave provides. However if Cleave works with clicky attacks such Adrenaline/Double Strike then this becomes a must for Tempest. Does it?

    It is true Sap has no save. It's just I don't think it lasts long enough for the feat cost. I just prefer the DPS value that Oversized brings to the table.

    I agree with you on the cool down on Dance of Death. Then again it is a very powerful clicky as I believe it does not interrupt your attack chains. Add the speed/doublestrike boosts and you can expect lots of damage and aggro with Dance of Death. Definitely situational.
    You have to remember unless there are 4 or more mobs on you using great cleave is a DPS loss for a tempest or any twf or a thf who is twitching.

    That being said cleave should be used straight after your third attack to not slow down the attack animation, and only out of attack speed boosts. I have to say having about 20 guys around you hitting a thousand cuts and hitting both cleaves and adding up the damage is somewhere around 20~25k taking into account the amount of negative levels I get from nightmares. So there are benefits to be had.

    I do move that the capstone is underpowered (about 1/8th of the dps increase of the fighter or occult slayer capstones) and we are meant to be the twf experts? Even with Perfect TWF this is results in 1/3rd of your main hand double strike in dps increase, so unless you are throwing around 30% double strike normally this isn't going to be worth the point cost.

    With this in mind splashing 2 fighter gets you +4 damage and 3 fighter allows you to take the sprint boosts attack speed boosts and an extra 3 on all your action boosts which is more powerful than 5% double strike. Looking at it this way I feel 8 fighter 12 ranger is almost the optimal twf or even 12 ranger 8 fighter 2 druid for a total of 16 action boosts for dps, 22 if you go dreadnought which also nets you no gap on their usage giving you over 7 minutes of boosted dps, more than enough between pitstops.
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  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiliconShadow View Post
    Whoever told you that too hit is not an issue is sorely mistaken. This has been discussed recently showing the math as to why it's wrong and how badly you are hurting your DPS.

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...WF-TWB-and-TWD
    OTWF is worth +2 to-hit. Are you saying +2 to-hit is worth a feat when there are +10 to-hit items in the game? I remain unconvinced.

    Looking at your own numbers:
    In short there are 27 cases up to 100AC in which it matters for my to hit of 71, 7 of those a 71 has 5% more chance than a 69, so that's a 26% less misses on those attacks that can miss. Or in total an increase of 7% to hit which isn't 2% at all.
    By your numbers, it's not a total increase of 7% to hit:

    73% of the time OTWF does nothing
    27% of the time OTWF gives you 5% more to hit

    That's 1.35% more to hit, not 7%. The poster you were refuting was being generous with the "2%" figure.

  9. #29
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    being able to stop an enemy from doing anything for 18-30 seconds isnt that pretty good? I mean even on EE if your running a good dps ED most trash mobs should be well and truely dead after 18 seconds no? and if they are not dead just re sap em isnt the cooldown on sap 15 seconds?

  10. #30
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    what equip would you recommend i craft or look/farm for?

    thanks in advance
    if life gives you lemons, make lemonade.
    if life gives you pickles, well you're screwed. because pickleade sucks.

  11. #31
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    I'm still a bit of a noob and I've been wondering,what's the point of the dragonmark of passage? Afaik it gives balance +2,expeditious retreat,ddoor and teleport,is there something I'm missing? Doesn't really seem all that necessary to me.
    Last edited by Jinzal; 09-02-2013 at 04:14 PM.

  12. #32
    Community Member MartinusWyllt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinzal View Post
    I'm still a bit of a noob and I've been wondering,what's the point of the dragonmark of passage? Afaik it gives balance +2,expeditious retreat,ddoor and teleport,is there something I'm missing? Doesn't really seem all that necessary to me.
    Since I work towards good UMD on every toon possible I never take the 3rd dragonmark. Can't get ddoor scrolls reliably (drops and AH) and I'm guessing lots of other people find ddoor very useful in different situations. (Far as I can tell it is the only way to solo the crucible, though I'm not a crucible expert and have only solo'd it once.)

  13. #33

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    The dragonmark is for ddoor. Never take the teleport dragonmark; it's not the spell and much less useful than the easily-scrolled spell.

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinusWyllt View Post
    (Far as I can tell [DDoor] is the only way to solo the crucible, though I'm not a crucible expert and have only solo'd it once.)
    Crucible is soloable without DDoor. You just have to turn off auto-targeting so when you pick up a crest it doesn't deselect the valve you have the hire/pet hard-targeted on.

  14. #34
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Just a quest on sap does it make the mob able to be affected by sneak attacks? Sorry looked at the wiki and asked in game and couldn't find the answer.

  15. #35

  16. #36
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Sap is a "soft" stun, like Fascinate, which breaks as soon as the target takes damage; unlike Stunning Blow or Hold Person, which render the victim helpless (+50% dmg taken). The upside to Sap is (A) it has no DC so it always works (except vs bosses) and (B) the effect lasts longer than the cooldown, so in theory you could keep a target Sapped indefinitely.
    Revisiting the Classics: Axesinger / Dwarven Defender / Drow Ninja / Drow Paladin / Elven Ranger / Monkcher / Sacred Vanguard
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  17. #37
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    Nice build Ellis.

    I have to admit I’ve never used Sap. No-fail ‘stuns’ sounds pretty awesome, but how does it work in practice. It reads as though it’s a melee attack? So I’m thinking I would have to run up to a bad guy and sap him. Then move away so glancing blows don’t bring him back to his senses.

    Also, is it obvious he’s been sapped? Fascinate is a pretty conspicuous action but people still manage to ruin that one regularly.

    Have you considered improved crit piercing for extra bow damage instead of sap?

  18. #38

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    As a TWF you won't have all that many glancing blows to worry about. The idea is to Sap one mob in a group (preferably the most dangerous one) and then kite the rest of the mobs a few feet away to beat on them while the Sapped mob thinks about what he's done.

    I'm currently playtesting improved trip on this build to get a feel for it before recommending it. (To see how the DC stands up to EH.) So I sacrificed quicken and sap on my build to fit in combat expertise and improved trip.

  19. #39
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    Default Which racial weapon line for a dwarf?

    One thing I was thinking about... for a dwarf version, is the axe still better than the pick/hammer line?

    Because, well, given that there seems to be a bunch of mobs that have DR/bludgeon or some such AND are immune to the extra DPS from sneak attack... and those same ones seem to be pretty much immune to crits too, so going with Piercing for the Improved Critical feat would fit nicely with the x4 multiplier on picks..?
    No longer completely f2p as of November 2014. Father of 3 more DDO players so far (I do have more children than that).
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  20. #40
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    I would very much like to see this as a dex build. Getting that reflex save with evasion to insane levels is something that very much appeals to me, not to mention it's utility for a trapper. Obviously such a build would use scimitars and dex for both to hit and damage. But what about range? Is there some mechanism whereby we can use dex as a damage option with longbows?

    Forgive my newbieness if the answer is too terribly obvious.

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