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  1. #1
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    Default So... ideas about a self-sufficiency build, halfling with dragonmarks, post U19?

    (Well, I was thinking about what I'd like to do with what is currently a bunch of halfling mostly-rogues on various servers in the "second" slot, and... well, I've been here before, the other thread is still around...)

    What I'd like to have is, trap skills, survivability and self-sufficiency (preferably up to soloable), and tactical flexibility (as in able to switch between melee and ranged, preferably).

    Dragonmarks would add a lot of the second one.

    Now, the dragonmarks do get benefits from positive spellpower, right? Ranger gets plenty of that easily with the new enhancements.

    Ranger also has a lot of tactical flexibility and works reasonably well multiclassed with rogue.

    So... how to optimize that? Halflings make good dex-based toons, but is there a way for them to get dex to replace str in Bow Strength that rangers get? I mean, int for crossbows & thrown from mechanic/rog 6, or dex for thrown from halfling tree, but not an elf so...

    Then, metamagics - Emp Heal would be nice to boost the greater dragonmark, and while at it - do metas work for the DWS Lesser Vigor SLA too? Ranger 8 is a lot but... something like ranger 8, rogue 11, fighter 1? Or forgo the Emp Heal and do Ranger 2 (TWF, and Imp Finesse from DWS tree) to 6, Rogue 13 to 17, and... Wizard 1 for, say, Maximize...?



    (Sure, I could also just LR+20 them into Pale Trappers or some such but... doing that with all of them would be boring.)
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  2. #2
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mna View Post
    Now, the dragonmarks do get benefits from positive spellpower, right?
    Correct; also from metamagics if you can find a way to squeeze them in.
    Halflings make good dex-based toons, but is there a way for them to get dex to replace str in Bow Strength that rangers get?
    If there is, I haven't found it. Seems odd that there wouldn't be anything in AA and/or DWS which would let you sub DEX for STR w/bows.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    Correct; also from metamagics if you can find a way to squeeze them in.
    Well, metamagics were covered the other month already...

    I guess these would work the same way for the DWS's Lesser Vigor and MLV, so that'd be some more of those if...

    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    If there is, I haven't found it. Seems odd that there wouldn't be anything in AA and/or DWS which would let you sub DEX for STR w/bows.
    Oh well. Figuring 6 or more rogue - or even mostly rogue - for int/dex based, should work just fine for a trapper/locksmith, heh. At that point it's just too bad that you can only conjure/imbue arrows and not bolts... (That is still so, isn't it?)

    How much UMD is a scroll of conjure bolts, anyway? The wiki doesn't seem to say, but I'm fairly sure one of my toons sold such a scroll recently...


    Hm. 7 rogue/12 ranger/1 other for bonus feat - fighter or wizard? Or 13 rog / 6 ranger / 1 other?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mna View Post
    Hm. 7 rogue/12 ranger/1 other for bonus feat - fighter or wizard? Or 13 rog / 6 ranger / 1 other?
    Let's see what feats could be had, the 13 rogue one...

    1 Rog1, Point Blank Shot
    2 Rng1, FE undead (Bow Str)
    3 Rng2, Weapon Finesse (Rapid Shot, TWF)
    4 Rog2, (Evasion)
    5 Rog3,
    6 Rog4, Least Dmark, (Uncanny Dodge)
    7 Wiz, Maximize
    8 Rng3, (Diehard)
    9 Rog5, Sap?
    10 Rng4, (Precise Shot)
    11 Rng5, FE Evil Outsider [or Construct as they're SA resistant?]
    12 Rog6, Imp Crit ranged or pierce? [Or slash?]
    13 Rng6, (ITWF, Manyshot)
    14 Rog7,
    15 Rog8, GTWF (Improved Uncanny Dodge)
    16 Rog9,
    17 Rog10, Slippery Mind?
    18 Rog11, Imp Crit the other one, Improved Precise Shot, or Empower?
    19 Rog12,
    20 Rog13, Improved Evasion?


    ...Does that look sane at all? (And can prerequisites be met such as BAB and...? Is there a better leveling order?)

    Well yes, it does get the "important" abilities sort of late at 13. Oh well, could use throwing weapons until then I guess...

    And no, I don't have any idea what this kind of a build should be doing in epics... never seen those myself and at this rate won't for a while, heh.


    And then, important skills would be search, spot, disable device, open lock, heal, UMD, hide, move silently. Secondary balance, jump, bluff... and at least one will be cross class at every level point, often more than one. So, rogue gets 8 + int mod, meaning... if we start at 15, use one level up and a +2 tome (unopened birthday boxes on several of my halflings) we should have enough?

    (Edit)
    Well, the old builder still works for this part as I'm not taking Spellcraft, heh.
    Starting with str 10, dex 18, con 14, int 15, wis 8, cha 8, and +1 int at level 4 and +2 int tome at 7, the primary skills can be maxed and secondaries get at least something. Rest of level ups into dex, for 22 "base" dex at 20 without tomes. And the feat progression seems to be at least allowed...

    So... does it look like this could work?
    Last edited by mna; 08-22-2013 at 07:44 AM.
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    ...and could swap out Weapon Finesse after taking 6 ranger, IF there are enough APs to take Graceful Death from the Tempest tree...? And in that case the melee Imp Crit feat should be slash for scimitars, probably...

    Hm, no easy way to unlock Emp Heal with that level distribution, but regular Empower would be allowed at that point, right?

    Or Dodge.

    Have to work out the enhancements a bit, I guess...
    Last edited by mna; 08-22-2013 at 09:23 AM.
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  6. #6
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    If you've got rog 13 / rgr 6 and splashed a caster class w/Cure spells, that would let you add Emp Heal. Maybe a bard splash for lvl 1 buffs and a few bardsongs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mna View Post
    ...and could swap out Weapon Finesse after taking 6 ranger, IF there are enough APs to take Graceful Death from the Tempest tree...? And in that case the melee Imp Crit feat should be slash for scimitars, probably...
    Both cleric and wizard splash variants of the 13 rogue/6 ranger/1 other plan are in play, at 9 and 7 respectively with the +20 hearts.

    Found that, as of U19p1, it isn't possible to get dex to damage with scimitars with just Ranger 3, even if you have Finesse. However, Ranger 3 + Rogue 3, Finesse, and the ML3 cores from both Tempest and Assassin do allow dex to damage with scimitars.

    I believe there's a bug in that, and hopefully it'll eventually get fixed in the direction that Ranger 3 + Finesse should suffice...


    Still. Given that we need the feat until Ranger 6 anyway, and don't get Improved Critical until almost then... is there any advantage at all in actually using scimitars until the point where we get rid of Finesse? (Well, except for the logistics, that is?)




    And apparently Headshot has an annoyingly long cooldown and is sort of underwhelming otherwise too, according to another thread. I wonder if I should give up on that and go with thrown for the ranged option... in that case Quick Draw looks like an attractive feat, I suppose... oh well, I have the free LR still available.


    At the moment the wizard-splash version does feel a bit more... flavor-appropriate... but that could well change as they gain levels. Cleric-splash version does feel a bit more straightforward to play though, what with unmeta'd Cure Light Wounds being castable from echoes and all.
    Last edited by mna; 09-20-2013 at 05:32 PM.
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  8. #8
    Community Member threefeetunder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mna View Post

    So... how to optimize that? Halflings make good dex-based toons, but is there a way for them to get dex to replace str in Bow Strength that rangers get? I mean, int for crossbows & thrown from mechanic/rog 6, or dex for thrown from halfling tree, but not an elf so...
    Ninja monks get dex to hit and damage with piercing and slashing weapons as long as you're centered. I haven't tried it, but that should work with bows due to them being piercing (as long as you get zen archery as well). You would only need a 3 monk splash, and brings with it some nice possibilities like extra sneak attack and various monk goodies like ninja poison, though it limits you to just either shortswords, unarmed in melee, longswords with whirling steel (or even quarterstaffs, and considering you have access to acrobat, that wouldn't be a bad idea either).

    If you're ok with just using shortswords as far as melee is concerned, you could even skip weapon finesse. Maybe try something like 11/6/3 rogue/ranger/monk?
    Last edited by threefeetunder; 08-22-2013 at 01:55 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by threefeetunder View Post
    Ninja monks get dex to hit and damage with piercing and slashing weapons as long as you're centered. I haven't tried it, but that should work with bows due to them being piercing (as long as you get zen archery as well). You would only need a 3 monk splash, and brings with it some nice possibilities like extra sneak attack and various monk goodies like ninja poison, though it limits you to just either shortswords or unarmed in melee.

    If you're ok with just using shortswords as far as melee is concernerd, you could even skip weapon finesse. Maybe try something like 11/6/3 rogue/ranger/monk?
    it works

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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    If you've got rog 13 / rgr 6 and splashed a caster class w/Cure spells, that would let you add Emp Heal. Maybe a bard splash for lvl 1 buffs and a few bardsongs?
    Yes, that is of course an option, although I'd prefer to have that bonus feat too, so...

    Surely clerics still can't take Emp Heal as their level 1 "class feat" in the new system?
    (And perform for fascinate to work properly is one primary skill too many.)

    Oh well, have to do a plan for 12 ranger too, and maybe a third one as well before I decide anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by threefeetunder View Post
    Ninja monks get dex to hit and damage with piercing and slashing weapons as long as you're centered. I haven't tried it, but that should work with bows due to them being piercing (as long as you get zen archery as well). You would only need a 3 monk splash, and brings with it some nice possibilities like extra sneak attack and various monk goodies like ninja poison, though it limits you to just either shortswords or unarmed in melee.

    If you're ok with just using shortswords as far as melee is concernerd, you could even skip weapon finesse. Maybe try something like 11/6/3 rogue/ranger/monk?
    If I had monk I could try that, yes. I still have a few more packs (and EDs) in the planned queue before more classes/races.
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  11. #11
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mna View Post
    Surely clerics still can't take Emp Heal as their level 1 "class feat" in the new system?
    It's not a class feat; anyone who can cast Cure spells can take Emp Heal.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    It's not a class feat; anyone who can cast Cure spells can take Emp Heal.
    Well yes, everyone except the dragonmarked halfling... if this were pen and paper, I'd argue with the DM that I should be able to do that ;-)

    I just mean, clerics supposedly get to pick a class feat now at level 1 that they previously could not, but I'm fairly sure this one isn't on that list.



    Oh well, let's see if there's anything to be had from these... build plans without enhancements, just in case anyone has suggestions...

    First, the mostly-rogue one, 13 rog / 6 ranger / 1 wizard:

    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 20 Lawful Good Halfling Male
    (13 Rogue \ 6 Ranger \ 1 Wizard) 
    Hit Points: 190
    Spell Points: 220 
    BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
    Fortitude: 12
    Reflex: 20
    Will: 8
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             10                    10
    Dexterity            18                    22
    Constitution         14                    14
    Intelligence         15                    18
    Wisdom                8                     8
    Charisma              8                     8
    
    Tomes Used
    +2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills         Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
    Balance               4                    16
    Bluff                -1                    12
    Concentration         2                     2
    Diplomacy            -1                    -1
    Disable Device        6                    27
    Haggle               -1                    -1
    Heal                  1                    24
    Hide                  8                    33
    Intimidate           -1                    -1
    Jump                  4                    12
    Listen               -1                     1
    Move Silently         8                    31
    Open Lock             8                    29
    Perform              n/a                   n/a
    Repair                2                     4
    Search                6                    27
    Spot                  3                    22
    Swim                  0                     3
    Tumble                8                    10
    Use Magic Device      3                    22
    
    Level 1 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot
    
    
    Level 2 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
    
    
    Level 3 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse
    
    
    Level 4 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: INT
    
    
    Level 5 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 6 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Healing
    
    
    Level 7 (Wizard)
    Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Maximize Spell
    
    
    Level 8 (Ranger)
    Ability Raise: DEX
    
    
    Level 9 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Sap
    
    
    Level 10 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 11 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Construct
    
    
    Level 12 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: DEX
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
    
    
    Level 13 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 14 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 15 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 16 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: DEX
    
    
    Level 17 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Slippery Mind
    
    
    Level 18 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons
    
    
    Level 19 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 20 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: DEX
    Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
    Second, 12 ranger / 7 rogue / 1 wizard:
    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.14.02
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 20 True Neutral Halfling Male
    (7 Rogue \ 12 Ranger \ 1 Wizard) 
    Hit Points: 202
    Spell Points: 310 
    BAB: 17\17\22\27\27
    Fortitude: 13
    Reflex: 20
    Will: 8
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             10                    10
    Dexterity            18                    22
    Constitution         14                    14
    Intelligence         15                    18
    Wisdom                8                     8
    Charisma              8                     8
    
    Tomes Used
    +2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills         Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
    Balance               7                    13
    Bluff                 3                     6
    Concentration         2                     2
    Diplomacy            -1                    -1
    Disable Device        6                    27
    Haggle               -1                    -1
    Heal                 -1                    24
    Hide                  8                    33
    Intimidate           -1                    -1
    Jump                  4                     7
    Listen               -1                     1
    Move Silently         8                    31
    Open Lock             8                    29
    Perform              n/a                   n/a
    Repair                2                     4
    Search                6                    27
    Spot                  3                    22
    Swim                  0                     0
    Tumble                5                     7
    Use Magic Device      3                    22
    
    Level 1 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot
    
    
    Level 2 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
    
    
    Level 3 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse
    
    
    Level 4 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: INT
    
    
    Level 5 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 6 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Healing
    
    
    Level 7 (Wizard)
    Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Maximize Spell
    
    
    Level 8 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: DEX
    
    
    Level 9 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Construct
    Feat: (Selected) Sap
    
    
    Level 10 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 11 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 12 (Ranger)
    Ability Raise: DEX
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 13 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 14 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 15 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons
    
    
    Level 16 (Ranger)
    Ability Raise: DEX
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
    
    
    Level 17 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 18 (Ranger)
    Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
    
    
    Level 19 (Ranger)
    
    
    Level 20 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: DEX
    Skills are a bit tight in the latter and stat-to-damage for ranged comes fairly late, but it does get Empower Healing Spell. Doesn't get Slippery Mind though and will saves could be better...

    And I think in both cases if it's feasible to use the Graceful Death enhancement from Tempest, I'd replace Weapon Finesse with Dodge after that point - or is there a better way?




    Now, let's see if we can cook up something different for a third alternative, maybe something with paladin levels and/or go with thrown for the ranged option or...
    Last edited by mna; 08-22-2013 at 04:26 PM.
    No longer completely f2p as of November 2014. Father of 3 more DDO players so far (I do have more children than that).
    Away from the game most of 2015.

  13. #13
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    Duh.

    Just realized that on a halfling there's no end benefit from starting dex 18/int 15, compared to dex 17/int 16. They're both in the 2-for-1 range anyway.

    Should just start int 16 and put all level ups into dex, I guess... then again dex 17 int 15 would allow either str 12 or cha/wis 10, for l20 "base" dex of 21 without tomes... how much do I need at that point again?
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  14. #14
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    Enhancement planning time.

    Quote Originally Posted by mna View Post

    First, the mostly-rogue one, 13 rog / 6 ranger / 1 wizard: ....


    ... if it's feasible to use the Graceful Death enhancement from Tempest, I'd replace Weapon Finesse with Dodge after that point - or is there a better way?
    Now, am I counting this right?

    Deepwood Stalker 32 ap:

    1 Far Shot 1 ap
    3 Increased Empathy 3*1 ap
    2 Versatile Empathy 2*1 ap
    1 Sneak Attack 1 ap
    ?1 Improved Weapon Finesse 1 ap // drop when we take Graceful Death and replace Finesse with Dodge
    1 Called Shot 1 ap
    2 Aimed Shot 2 ap

    4 Empathic Healing 2*2 ap
    6 Stealthy 3*2 ap

    2 Leg Shot 2 ap
    6 Faster Sneaking 3*2 ap
    2 Skill boost 1*2 ap

    2 Head Shot 2 ap

    = 32 ap so far

    Tempest 11 ap:
    1 Shield of Whirling Steel 1 ap
    2 Whirling Blades 2 ap
    2 Improved Reaction 2*1 ap
    1 Tempest 1 ap
    1 Improved Reaction 1*1 ap
    2 Improved Parry/Dodge 2*1 / 1*2 ap

    1 Graceful Death 1 ap

    = 43 ap so far

    Halfling 13 ap:

    1 Halfling Luck 1 1 ap
    3 Dragonmark Focus 3*1 ap
    3 Halfling Cunning 3*1 ap
    2 Lesser Dragonmarks 2 ap
    2 Halfling Dexterity 1 2 ap

    2 Greater Dragonmarks 2 ap

    Wizard 1 ap:

    1 Archmage, SLA: Invisibility

    = 57 ap so far

    Mechanic 23 ap:

    1 Arbalester 1 ap
    3 Mechanics 3*1 ap
    3 Awareness 3*1 ap
    2 Crossbow Training 1 2 ap
    1 Tanglefoot 1 ap

    1 Targeting Sights 1 ap
    2 Crossbow Training 2 2 ap
    2 Crossbow Training 3 2 ap
    3 UMD 3*1 ap
    2 +1 int/dex 2 ap

    1 Improved Detection 1 ap
    2 Crossbow Training 4 2 ap

    == 80 ap total.


    Now, it would at first glance save net 2 ap to take Faster Sneaking from the Acrobat tree (1 to unlock and 1 each), but then we'd have to find something else to fill the prerequisites for Head Shot... and I'd sort of like to fit Lacerating Shots as well...


    Sort of slightly worries me about disengaging, I didn't plan on skill points into Concentration to be able to cast Obscuring Mist mid-melee but... does that kind of thin even work in this game? (I thought it should at least with the new stealth system?)
    Last edited by mna; 08-23-2013 at 07:32 AM.
    No longer completely f2p as of November 2014. Father of 3 more DDO players so far (I do have more children than that).
    Away from the game most of 2015.

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