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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    with the change to DM, im curious how its working and how much investment is required to make it worth taking.
    Depends what you had before.

    If you had DM3 +6 to damage you now need 34 Charisma (38 if you have insightful +2 gear) to get the same bonus.
    If you had DM4 +8 damage you now need 42 charisma (46 if you have insightful +2 gear) to get the same bonus.

  2. #22
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    Re: My Pally(ies):

    At first glance, I was devastated. Then I LR'ed and carefully picked my feats and enhancements. Now it's not as good, but not quite as bad as I initially thought.

    My biggest beef is needing a shield for the additional MAX HP and other bonuses - that means I'm forced to use a 1-hander rather than my 2-hander. The final result will be how good a 1 hander I can find (and how long that will take) and how well I can deck it out.

    The second drawback for many is Divine Might is not nearly as good - being not much of a key masher I tended not to use it much of the time anyway so for me personally that's not so bad.

    The third problem is the whole choosing between Undead and Evil Outsiders - I solved that problem by not having enough enhancement points left to put much in either, anyway. I'm not gonna respect every few days to keep switching between - I wonder if Turbine can't find a better use for that tree or combine them or something.

    Then of course there's the issue everyone perceives around toughness.

    After I carefully LR'ed (used my own heart, banked the 20), chose feats, chose 1 hander and shield and decked them out, carefully chose enhancements mostly toward sacred defense and some racials..being -sure- to take the 6-con (and I think a little con elsewhere) to help make up the HP I lost, it didn't turn out all that bad comparatively I guess - Pallies were never real strong before.

    One important note - When I LR'ed, for some reason it did not include my ED (Unyielding Sentinel) and that had a -distinct- impact on my feeling my Pally had been devastated. I reset my ED tree and it replaced several uses of things I first hat wrongly assumed were eaten up by the enhancements.

    So we'll see over time, if I can get a devastatingly good 1 hander, my main Pally might survive. I worked too long and hard not to keep him, and I will keep him pure.

    My original main Pally (my first DDO experiment) will probably get TRed into something else.

    So..time will tell. But it took all of those, the LRing, feats, enhancements, spells, resetting ED, to be able to finally sit back and look - so don't commit Hari Kari just yet.

    And to the Devs: "Paladin still need love"

  3. #23
    Community Member blackdae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeKalbSun View Post
    With the new enhancements i lost 200hp and unyielding soverignty. My res is now a spell instead of an enhancement and
    I'm sure there are other things I havent had time to noitice yet. I'm sure there are some good things buried in there somewhere
    and I'm trying to look on the brightside of this. Is anyone happy with the state of the Palidin now? What are some of the new Paly builds
    people are coming up with.
    I'm very happy 'cause now she's going to be a thief acrobat / kensei!

  4. #24
    Uber Completionist luvirini's Avatar
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    Got lot of HP loss on my paladin: from 992 down to 706 hp shipbuffed.
    Other things that changed: Lost one lay on hand. Gained a lot of heal amp and few points of AC and few points of PRR and lost a bit of damage output.

  5. #25
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    Self healing is about the same, but haven't respeced to grab 23 points in heal. Already used the free lesser and want to save the +20. HP is down a bit(~50ish I think?), DPS down due to DM changes, saves slightly higher and more str so less chance of getting overrun by mariliths. Kind of a wash really, not really sure what to do as the toon wasn't all that great before the changes.

    Probably TR into a warpriest when they come out, until then probably just going to pike raids with this toon.

  6. #26
    Community Member alancarp's Avatar
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    Default Report on 2nd Re-spec

    This is a little better for my human pally... probably will do this for a while (especially since the 46,750 plat cost tends to add up).

    1. Recognized that Human Versatility Dmg boost (20%) for 1 action point was almost as good as the Pally 30% dmg action boost costing SIX action points. Definitely kept the human version and dumped the extra 10%.
    2. Using Unyielding Sentinel/Vigor of Battle stance, my fully-buffed final HP is in the neighborhood 900, including everything I can muster with equipment bonuses. That's still down ~200-250 from before, but there are some good trades made.
    3. I'm twisting extra dmg elements from Legendary Dreadnaught for better dmg. Watching the auction houses now to find one of these 'Deadly IV' items that have just cropped up - the equivalent of a nice Dream Visor in random loot. If I really need to do serious dmg, then I'll lose 140 HP and go to Legendary Dreadnaught straight up... that generates double dmg on crits.
    4. Armor Class. With more efficient use of Action Points, I bought most of the non-shield-bearing protection elements of the Sacred Defender tree. The result is much better than I had expected.
    > my Flawless black dragonscale armor has better protection since I upped the Dex Bonus by 2.
    > I maxed out the Reinforced Defense bonus for armor (45% bonus to +37 armor)
    > Bottom line: my AC now back to 106; 136 with a shield. I think the PRR was up to 73/83, respectively.
    > Tested this on Epic Hard Snitch. I recognize that Vigor of Battle helped a bunch, but in the Garos end-boss fight, I needed no heals whatsoever.
    > Biggest hassle was from Crateos, but then again, that's always been the case. Otherwise, quest went a little better than usual.
    5. Healing. This was really pretty impressive. I opted to leave out 1 of the available heal amplification options and still was healing for 600-700 HP per use of lay on hands. Almost made me forget about losing Unyielding Sovereignty (for now) and Glorious Stand. Before the update, use of GS was necessary if I wanted/needed that much healing... 300-350 was typical. Even regular heals are amp'd greatly: 100 HP for 12 spell points.
    6. Divine Might needs a special mention. Several months ago, I actually worked up a detailed spreadsheet on dmg being done with various bonuses in play (Action dmg boost, dream visor, power attack, Intolerance, etc.). I never got it to the point of reporting the bug, but frankly, DM didn't work. I mean literally did not add any damage at all...I have the data to prove it. It has been redefined now (CHA->STR bonus instead of +2/+4/+6 dmg bonus). This is making a ton of difference: it's like a fighter's psionic strength surge and more (I have +9/+10 CHA modifier). Given that it lasts for 2 minutes and is tied to # of Turn Undead clickies, this effectively means I can use it constantly. Battles end quicker and thus I don't miss the lost HP.
    > Note that I had been adding CON/STR bonuses in the enh trees before; switched this to +1 CHA. That boosts Divine Might and turns.

    I'd still be happier with about another 100 HP... but even at ~900 HP, I could tank the Lich in Fall of Truth.

  7. #27
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    I LRed my drow 18Pal/2Mnk to a 15Pal/3mnk/2ftr short sword build and so far it looks pretty fine. Still has the goodies from HotD and I gained stuff from KotC on top of that. Dodge went from 13% to 24% and now I can stay centered too. Still pondering over wheater to go with GoF or FotW as ED. Prolly not the greatest build ever, but fun to play.

  8. #28
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Ok, so I did some extensive running with my pally last night. He’s was fresh into lvl 19 not having completed one rank in. I went full SD, basically maxing everything, ignoring the auras, and putting a point each into the encanements that mitigate item damage and add AC when you get knocked down. I also had points placed in my Human tree to get shield proficiency, an increase of CHR on my action boosts (that was a grand mistake), and increased by STR (again, another mistake). I started with an in-stance PRR of 85, about 650 HP, and an AC of 70+.

    Without shield I was about 560 HP, 75 PRR, and an AC of 65. I’m using Minos Legens, Beholder Plate Armor, the Sustaining(?) Symbiot, lvl 16 Cloak of Night, a Con+6 item, Vengeful Protector / Templars Bulwark as shields.

    I did an LR, and took some of the more notable feats: THF,Empowered Healing (or whatever that meta is called), Improved Critical (Slashing), 2 of the Unyielding Sovereignty feats (for an extra LoH-like feat and longsword proficiency), Tower Shield proficiency, and Shield Mastery. I dumped Khopesh (honestly, I wasn’t seeing the criticals I thought I’d be seeing), and now I’m sticking to longswords and scimitars. Basically, I’m almost starting from scratch with all my weapons. I still had a few longswords and scimitars from my previous setup, including a BtCoE Poison Scimitar, Divine Vengeance, Watcher’s blade, and a few crafted beaters. I don’t have any greatswords yet, and I’m working on that at present.

    I ran with PUGs in Enter the Kobold (normal), Blown to Bits (elite), and Schemes of the Enemy (elite). So the last two put me at-level on elite. The first puts me at a nasty end-fight (even at normal) where I am a dedicated tank. Without THF items, I’m pure S&B at this point.

    All in all, it didn’t perform poorly – I’d rate it maybe ‘fair.’ My best weapon was that BtCoE scimitar, which crits quite a bit (sub 100 HP crits), and between the CON poison and the CON stat damage on hit, it is a great CC weapon overall. It helps with the self-healers, but it isn’t a great solution. Plus my smiters went with my Khopesh line-up, so I’m now in the market to re-work my weapons. I was, however, on elite taking more damage than what I’d like. Self-healers are still a big problem too. However, by the end of it all, I got two more Aps. I re-worked my toon slightly by fixing the human tree, taking CON as my stat increase, and use STR on Action Boosts. I boosted by PRR so that it was 112-ish in stance, and my HP are now 690+. I think AC is in the upper-70s range.

    The biggest issue that I am going to have, by far, is switching to and from THF. Because so much of my HP are created in-stance, and dependent on having a shield, when I go to THF I lose about a fifth of my HP. Then, when I switch back to using a shield, those HP are not recovered. If there is one thing that I find completely idiotic, it is THAT mechanic. So it almost forces you to stick with a shield, but provides virtually ZERO opportunities to even remotely compensate for the loss of DPS. Likewise, if you go to wand-heal yourself, you lose those HP EVEN THOUGH YOU STILL HAVE THE SHIELD EQUIPED. Now THAT is an outright bug!

    If I switch back-and-forth to THF and S&B, I’ll need lots of SP to drop a CSW when I make the change in order to compensate for the difference. And I’m not even sure if the THF is going to make much of a difference.

    All things being equal, it worked a little better than my previous build, which mirrored what I have now. But I lost 2 smites as well as exhaulted smite, and there is almost ZERO chance I can get those back with the points as they stand now, and preserve my tanking.


    I’m thinking about maybe dropping tower shield and one of the Unyielding Sovereignty feats (I want to stay pure, and don’t want to splash fighter because I want to work within the class). If I did that, what would anyone suggest replacing those feats with for better DPS? And how much do you think it would compromise my shield-tanking?

  9. #29
    Community Member WilliamBraveheart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeKalbSun View Post
    With the new enhancements i lost 200hp and unyielding soverignty. My res is now a spell instead of an enhancement and
    I'm sure there are other things I havent had time to noitice yet. I'm sure there are some good things buried in there somewhere
    and I'm trying to look on the brightside of this. Is anyone happy with the state of the Palidin now? What are some of the new Paly builds
    people are coming up with.
    My S&B AC tank pally actually gained a little in some areas but is essentially the same as pre enhancement pass. so still very survivable and decent DPS .


    Lookin for sumthin to kill!!

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I’m thinking about maybe dropping tower shield and one of the Unyielding Sovereignty feats (I want to stay pure, and don’t want to splash fighter because I want to work within the class). If I did that, what would anyone suggest replacing those feats with for better DPS? And how much do you think it would compromise my shield-tanking?
    Unyielding Sovereignty is a faith feat. You can't replace it with anything other than a different (much less good) faith feat.

  11. #31
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Unyielding Sovereignty is a faith feat. You can't replace it with anything other than a different (much less good) faith feat.
    Yeah, but I still have a lesser heart awaiting me.

  12. #32
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Scratch that last comment - I see what you're saying.

  13. #33
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    Yes! I'm very happy with the way Paladin's turned out (I play a S&B Paladin), and I've been playing and play testing Paladins for 7 years. The trick is that you need to invest in both prestige trees, not just focus on one.
    Aryk Stoutheart, Paladin - Sarlona
    Rindyl Twirliblade, Elven Swashbuckler - Sarlona
    Vyyndar Stoutheart, Vanguard Paladin - Argo

  14. #34
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    Default Interesting that there are so many options for characters

    I am waiting for them to bring Sibrey's back or else considering canceling two VIP accounts. I did not work and put in the hours to have my character destroyed after playing 3-15 hours a day for over a year and never felt overpowered versus a rouge, or high end DPS fighter, yet it was the under Enhanced Pally's that were nerfed?

    Going to take a couple of days off to keep from canceling my account and cutting losses, and hopefully someone out there can salvage a viable build that is NOT sword and board. Why have 400 million ways to build a toon if the developers dictate that you must carry a shield, when I do not want to carry a shield?
    In a nutshell:

    -18 STR
    Dex that is spent and useless for dual wield (thanks for the option, too bad I cant use it anymore)
    Appears that DI is nerfed and no DMG bonus from its use
    Appears that no vorpal DMG occurs from smiting, only the vorpal
    -7 PRR
    +10 AC (doesnt come near making up for the other losses)

    So I can either be a danger to 25% of the mobs in the game, or sword and board and nothing else. What is the role of the pally in the new DDO, and why would the fighters get Siibrey's when their DMG output is 5 times that of a Pally?

  15. #35
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    I've said this in another post - Overall as a S&B Defender Paladin I'm am liking the new enhancements with the following exceptions:

    • The +10% HP, +6 Str and +6 Con requiring holding a shield - And I am S&B 90%+ of the time and don't like this
    • Divine Might is a loss in DPS for my build - I've even decided to not take it - But I do see how it can be a benefit prior to getting Insight Gear
    • Defender Capstone - Glorified Diehard, is still diehard and I don't believe it even comes close as a match to the Knight's Capstone


    I have a higher AC/PRR/Dodge with the new system. I'm down about 100 HP and 10% Healing Amp. But part of the HP change can be explained by starting CON at 16 and not 17 and trading Epic Toughness for Shield Deflection. In U18 I did invest in the 1/2 elf toughness and paladin toughness lines at least 3 of each tier.

    As a trade off of not taking DM I've instead taken the Paladin Damage Boost for +20% for 20 seconds.

    I can see those that took the DoS line of U18 but were THF or TWF seeing a loss in both HP and DPS while trying to stick with the Defender line. Part of this is because the Defender Stance was acceptable with all styles because it made up for not being able to be RAGED (Rage, Madstone, and FotW Rage abilities). Now these styles don't get to benefit from the Extra HP/Str/Con that they gave up RAGE for...

    Also I'm a firm believer in using UMD for Tower Shield proficiency as even a 10 UMD is enough for 50% success on a spell that only resets on Death/Rest.

    I would be on board to keep the "Shield" requirement if the definition of "Shield equipped" was modified to include "Shield Effects" such as what appears on the Epic White Dragon Scale or the Shield Spell.

    As it stands I lose HP when I switch a UMD item into my off hand. That could be more dangerous as switching out my CON or False Life item for a skill boost, as the amount of HP Lost can be close to 200+ simply by un-equipping the shield

  16. #36
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    The Defender capstone is lame. I wouldn't bother with it. You shouldn't be relying on exactly how far down below -10 hit points you go to survive, but instead make sure your hit points never get that low. If in trouble, use Glorious Stand, and before it wears out or your hit points get too low hit yourself with a lay on hands to heal yourself back to full (doubles your healing amp!).

    I would recommend to take the Knight capstone instead. If I decide to stay pure (which I'm leaning towards, but also evaluating the value of splashing), I'm looking at 41 points into the Knight tree for the old capstone and 39 points into the Defender tree.
    Aryk Stoutheart, Paladin - Sarlona
    Rindyl Twirliblade, Elven Swashbuckler - Sarlona
    Vyyndar Stoutheart, Vanguard Paladin - Argo

  17. #37
    Founder & Hero Uska's Avatar
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    Well I lost a fair amount of hp, some ac(about 5% easier to hit) gained some PRR(about 4% more damage reduction) lost faith heal but I gained some lay on hands so flash healing is acutally better and they regen faster then what I lost havent been able to see it combat yet as my main pc died and the one I have right now is good enough to play with making characters but not good enough for questing so I will have to see how it goes in a week or so but over all it looks ok for my defender paladin for an offensive one not sure but my offense should be up from what it was.

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  18. #38
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Unyielding Sovereignty is a faith feat. You can't replace it with anything other than a different (much less good) faith feat.
    Ok, checked my pally last night - the feat itself is Child of the Sovereign which grants a +1 bonus to long swords. It requires Unyielding Sovereignty. Went to Fred to see about a feat-swap. You can indeed swap this feat for a standard feat (the same goes for Tower Shield proficiency). That opens up Improved Bash, GTHF, Power Attack, and Dodge from what I can tell.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Ok, so I did some extensive running with my pally last night. He’s was fresh into lvl 19 not having completed one rank in. I went full SD, basically maxing everything, ignoring the auras, and putting a point each into the encanements that mitigate item damage and add AC when you get knocked down. I also had points placed in my Human tree to get shield proficiency, an increase of CHR on my action boosts (that was a grand mistake), and increased by STR (again, another mistake). I started with an in-stance PRR of 85, about 650 HP, and an AC of 70+.

    Without shield I was about 560 HP, 75 PRR, and an AC of 65. I’m using Minos Legens, Beholder Plate Armor, the Sustaining(?) Symbiot, lvl 16 Cloak of Night, a Con+6 item, Vengeful Protector / Templars Bulwark as shields.

    I did an LR, and took some of the more notable feats: THF,Empowered Healing (or whatever that meta is called), Improved Critical (Slashing), 2 of the Unyielding Sovereignty feats (for an extra LoH-like feat and longsword proficiency), Tower Shield proficiency, and Shield Mastery. I dumped Khopesh (honestly, I wasn’t seeing the criticals I thought I’d be seeing), and now I’m sticking to longswords and scimitars. Basically, I’m almost starting from scratch with all my weapons. I still had a few longswords and scimitars from my previous setup, including a BtCoE Poison Scimitar, Divine Vengeance, Watcher’s blade, and a few crafted beaters. I don’t have any greatswords yet, and I’m working on that at present.

    I ran with PUGs in Enter the Kobold (normal), Blown to Bits (elite), and Schemes of the Enemy (elite). So the last two put me at-level on elite. The first puts me at a nasty end-fight (even at normal) where I am a dedicated tank. Without THF items, I’m pure S&B at this point.

    All in all, it didn’t perform poorly – I’d rate it maybe ‘fair.’ My best weapon was that BtCoE scimitar, which crits quite a bit (sub 100 HP crits), and between the CON poison and the CON stat damage on hit, it is a great CC weapon overall. It helps with the self-healers, but it isn’t a great solution. Plus my smiters went with my Khopesh line-up, so I’m now in the market to re-work my weapons. I was, however, on elite taking more damage than what I’d like. Self-healers are still a big problem too. However, by the end of it all, I got two more Aps. I re-worked my toon slightly by fixing the human tree, taking CON as my stat increase, and use STR on Action Boosts. I boosted by PRR so that it was 112-ish in stance, and my HP are now 690+. I think AC is in the upper-70s range.

    The biggest issue that I am going to have, by far, is switching to and from THF. Because so much of my HP are created in-stance, and dependent on having a shield, when I go to THF I lose about a fifth of my HP. Then, when I switch back to using a shield, those HP are not recovered. If there is one thing that I find completely idiotic, it is THAT mechanic. So it almost forces you to stick with a shield, but provides virtually ZERO opportunities to even remotely compensate for the loss of DPS. Likewise, if you go to wand-heal yourself, you lose those HP EVEN THOUGH YOU STILL HAVE THE SHIELD EQUIPED. Now THAT is an outright bug!

    If I switch back-and-forth to THF and S&B, I’ll need lots of SP to drop a CSW when I make the change in order to compensate for the difference. And I’m not even sure if the THF is going to make much of a difference.

    All things being equal, it worked a little better than my previous build, which mirrored what I have now. But I lost 2 smites as well as exhaulted smite, and there is almost ZERO chance I can get those back with the points as they stand now, and preserve my tanking.


    I’m thinking about maybe dropping tower shield and one of the Unyielding Sovereignty feats (I want to stay pure, and don’t want to splash fighter because I want to work within the class). If I did that, what would anyone suggest replacing those feats with for better DPS? And how much do you think it would compromise my shield-tanking?
    my paly was S&B before and his tank has improved a little (mostly PRR, healing amp and positive spell power) whilst leaving me more points to pump into the smites and the luxury of 2 min divine mights.

    have you looked at stacking up the double strike? with both feats, zeal, 6% shield (cove or high level loot gen) and sentinel destiny you can hit 31% double strike (so 24% pre-destiny if you have cove shield, moar if you start twisting things in).

    i maxed out the defender line and the aura (though ignored spell resistance). i maxed the % bonus on armour class and the tier 5 PRR. i ignored the shield bonuses (% bonus to a smaller number)

    in total when my old tank, healing amp and smites (tier 2) were matched i had 13 points spare (1 min divine mights at that stage).

    i then took divine sacrifice and exalted smite to tier 3 and treated myself to 2 min mights and that auto heal at -50 incap which kicks back about 450 with my healing amp. think i had enough left over for the first tier human amp as well.

    there is quite a bit of wiggle room when comparing my old tank to the new enhancements, 13 points is way more than i expected!

    i am kopesh user (500+ dmg on a smite now, cant remember if it was 550's or 500's, either way with exalted smite II it was 450) and really need to LR to make the most of the changes but for now he's looking a little better overall. managed to amble round the first whealoon quest on EH in flower destiny on my tod with the reductions to my tank that brings, oh and that was with the 13 points unspent at that time.

    the weapon swap bug really bites though, it's forcing me to heal without my devotion stick which fubars my SP efficiency. if that isn't added to patch 1 or 2 i might drop the offending 20% hp bonus for something else while they work on fixing it, for now i'll just leave my HP below the max when soloing and it's a bonus if i'm grouped and get an incoming heal to full hp.

    oh, lvl23 human pure paly, so only 4 levels above your paly!
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  20. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Ok, checked my pally last night - the feat itself is Child of the Sovereign which grants a +1 bonus to long swords. It requires Unyielding Sovereignty. Went to Fred to see about a feat-swap. You can indeed swap this feat for a standard feat (the same goes for Tower Shield proficiency). That opens up Improved Bash, GTHF, Power Attack, and Dodge from what I can tell.
    The "Follower of" feats are paladin bonus feats granted at paladin level 1, and unyielding is another paladin bonus feat granted at level 6. You can only take bonus feats in bonus feat slots, and the only paladin bonus feats are the faith ones.

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