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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firewall View Post
    To be honest if i wanted to rely on sneak attack damage i would focus on that with mostly rogue levels, improved sneak attack and a greensteel radiance II shuriken plus a high Deception item because i dont like the idea of my damage being dependant on not having the aggro of mobs.
    Couldn't 6 levels of ranger do the trick ? As far as I can see the Sniper shot (from the cores) is like a 100% guaranteed bluff with a 6s cooldown ?*

    Something among the lines of 8 rogue/6 ranger/6 monk halfling
    Sneak attack dies
    4 from rogue levels
    4 from assassin tree
    4 from ninja spy tree
    3 from deepwood sniper tree
    3 from halfling tree
    ========
    18

    Which adds what .. 63 dps per hit ?

    *I guess the problem comes from - what to do after you kill one of them after a bluff and the rest are coming for you xD

  2. #22
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    @Caprice: Acquiring all the shuriken you need is one of the biggest Problems since good shuriken are not easy to get. Without Shroud or Cannith crafting you have to rely on the AH and that can be quite a problem and even there good shuriken might be expensive. Collecting Shroud ingredients with other toons can help a lot. At level 16 you can also use the first spelltouched weapons from eveningstar challenges. Glad that you like the build.

    @poptolev: Adding sneak attack dice to a throwing build can better the DPS considerably. I already played such a build in a past life and decided against it since you loose survivability, sneak attacks are situational and only mid-ranged (you have to bypass Fort, make monsters blind, incapped or bluffed, keep them in point blank range etc.) and you cannot get the highest crit range for the CC procs on crit with no save.
    Shuricannon 2.0 Drow 20 Monk Thrower for DPS, Nethercannon Shadar-Kai 15 Pal/3 Monk/2 Rog Thrower for Past Lifes
    Shiradi Shuricannon Drow 20 Monk Thrower for Defense, Shiradi Warcannon Warforged 11 Wiz/6 Monk/3 Rog Thrower...Throwers for the win

  3. #23
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    I've been gearing up for this build since I first saw your post. Just one more Master Artificer raid til I can get my alchemical shuri. Been lucky over the years, now have a +1 shuriken of smiting(ml8), +1 vorpal of lesser human bane(ml12) and triple pos green steel(ml12) so I'm pretty much set against anything but beholders and oozes

    Moonhaven

  4. #24
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moonhaven2 View Post
    I've been gearing up for this build since I first saw your post. Just one more Master Artificer raid til I can get my alchemical shuri. Been lucky over the years, now have a +1 shuriken of smiting(ml8), +1 vorpal of lesser human bane(ml12) and triple pos green steel(ml12) so I'm pretty much set against anything but beholders and oozes

    Moonhaven
    Nice. I hope you have as much fun with the build as i do. I would like to hear your opinion and experiences with the build.
    Shuricannon 2.0 Drow 20 Monk Thrower for DPS, Nethercannon Shadar-Kai 15 Pal/3 Monk/2 Rog Thrower for Past Lifes
    Shiradi Shuricannon Drow 20 Monk Thrower for Defense, Shiradi Warcannon Warforged 11 Wiz/6 Monk/3 Rog Thrower...Throwers for the win

  5. #25

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    Firewall, you've got my +1 with this build. I was very pleasantly surprised, before finding this thread, when my ninja pulled out some stars just to pull a few enemies in Return to Cabal of One and found herself killing them with vorpals and d.o.ts before they ever got close!

    A Drow super-thrower? DAY-UM. I'm rolling one up tonight and will likely add some commentary over time from your thread to my Monk guide on this cool variation (with credit to "Teacher Firewall"). Nice work! Love to the shuriken!
    Editor, The Book of Syncletica: An unofficial DDO Monk Guide, and Stormreach Shadows: An unofficial DDO Stealth Guide
    The Order of Syncletica: A DDO-flavored blog on Monks and gameplay and more
    (formerly known as Spencerian)

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spencerian View Post
    Firewall, you've got my +1 with this build. I was very pleasantly surprised, before finding this thread, when my ninja pulled out some stars just to pull a few enemies in Return to Cabal of One and found herself killing them with vorpals and d.o.ts before they ever got close!

    A Drow super-thrower? DAY-UM. I'm rolling one up tonight and will likely add some commentary over time from your thread to my Monk guide on this cool variation (with credit to "Teacher Firewall"). Nice work! Love to the shuriken!
    Ok, so having fully gone shuriken build (with just elite heroic morning star so far ), I can see how this would work amazingly with either fury or shiradi....

    However. HOW can I build ki?? In grand master water stance, sneaking between fights, my ki regens sloooooooooooowly. So slowly, as a matter of fact, that it is about useless to try and rely on 10k stars for damage.

    At 23 I have the spider-spun caparison, which gives +1 ki something. I have the ninja spy capstone, so no bonus ki regen. Is that sufficient to work with? That I think turns out to be 1 ki per second...

    Lastly, how do you kill plants. -_- They are immune to sneaks, and I think criticals... I need to farm druids deep for the bracers and belt, and probably the outfit as a stopgap, and the plants just are a super pain in the ass to kill.

    Should I make a triple pos shuriken, or a lit2. I only have materials for one, and I don't want to run any more shroud for a while.

    Thanks!

  7. #27
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    @Spencerian: I'd feel honored to be part of your monk guide. I'm always excited to hear feedback and experiences and maybe some changes others made to this build to fit their needs.

    @Scrag: The +1 Ki from Spider-Spun only works with melee so that is not a valid part of Ki building. You have actually 4 sources for gaining Ki with this build:

    - Water Stance: Master and Grandmaster Water stance give +1 passive Ki regeneration
    - Contemplation: Rank 3 of the second Tier Henshin Mystic Enhancement gives you +1 passive Ki regeneration
    - Enlightenment: Rank 3 of the Grandmaster of Flowers Tier 1 ability gives +1 passive Ki regeneration (and +45 Ki and +6 concentraion). Since it is only a Tier 1 ability it can (and should!) be easily Twisted.
    Situational:
    - Stealthy: Rank 3 of the Tier 2 Enhancement of the Ninja Spy Tree gives you an additional +1 passive Ki regeneration.

    That adds up to a permanent +3 passive Ki regeneration and another +1 while sneaking...that is more than enough in my experience to spam Shadow Form and 10k Stars.

    Speaking fo Plants i usually let the shiradi and spelltouched procs take care of that. Plants are not immune to Force or Sonic damage so you should try to get a spelltouched shuriken with that damage type.

    Deciding between Triple Positive and Lit 2 i would go for Triple positive since in most other cases i usually use my life stealing spelltouched shuriken. Triple positive is so much better than even the Morning Star against undead and undead are another weak spot of a shuriken build since they are immune to sneak attacks and sometimes have a DR/Bludgeoning which you cannot bypass with shuriken.
    Last edited by Firewall; 11-01-2013 at 11:30 AM.
    Shuricannon 2.0 Drow 20 Monk Thrower for DPS, Nethercannon Shadar-Kai 15 Pal/3 Monk/2 Rog Thrower for Past Lifes
    Shiradi Shuricannon Drow 20 Monk Thrower for Defense, Shiradi Warcannon Warforged 11 Wiz/6 Monk/3 Rog Thrower...Throwers for the win

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firewall View Post
    @Spencerian: I'd feel honored to be part of your monk guide. I'm always excited to hear feedback and experiences and maybe some changes others made to this build to fit their needs.

    @Scrag: The +1 Ki from Spider-Spun only works with melee so that is not a valid part of Ki building. You have actually 4 sources for gaining Ki with this build:

    - Water Stance: Master and Grandmaster Water stance give +1 passive Ki regeneration
    - Contemplation: Rank 3 of the second Tier Henshin Mystic Enhancement gives you +1 passive Ki regeneration
    - Enlightenment: Rank 3 of the Grandmaster of Flowers Tier 1 ability gives +1 passive Ki regeneration (and +45 Ki and +6 concentraion). Since it is only a Tier 1 ability it can (and should!) be easily Twisted.
    Situational:
    - Stealthy: Rank 3 of the Tier 2 Enhancement of the Ninja Spy Tree gives you an additional +1 passive Ki regeneration.

    That adds up to a permanent +3 passive Ki regeneration and another +1 while sneaking...that is more than enough in my experience to spam Shadow Form and 10k Stars.
    Thanks for reminding me about the Stealthy ki regeneration (a legacy from the old Shadow Fade in the old enhancements) in Ninja Spy. In my Henshin Mystic chapter of the guide I answered this very question with all that you mentioned except the Ninja Spy one but also +1 from Way of the Tenacious Badger when your HP is below 50% and the +1 from L20 Mystic's Serenity core enhancement. Mystics still win at the passive regeneration game if they have all of these: +6 or 7. This build needs it as much as Mystics and their spell-points-as-ki fighting style.
    Editor, The Book of Syncletica: An unofficial DDO Monk Guide, and Stormreach Shadows: An unofficial DDO Stealth Guide
    The Order of Syncletica: A DDO-flavored blog on Monks and gameplay and more
    (formerly known as Spencerian)

  9. #29
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spencerian View Post
    Thanks for reminding me about the Stealthy ki regeneration (a legacy from the old Shadow Fade in the old enhancements) in Ninja Spy. In my Henshin Mystic chapter of the guide I answered this very question with all that you mentioned except the Ninja Spy one but also +1 from Way of the Tenacious Badger when your HP is below 50% and the +1 from L20 Mystic's Serenity core enhancement. Mystics still win at the passive regeneration game if they have all of these: +6 or 7. This build needs it as much as Mystics and their spell-points-as-ki fighting style.
    True. But actually i very seldomly find myself below 50% health since this build also has a very high defense so patient tortoise fits in here much better. As a tip from me: Activate Sneak Mode before activating Wholeness of body. The +1 passive Ki bonus still stays active during meditation so when you are finished you are not only healed but have more Ki also.

    @Scrag: You can also use Meditation at the start of a quest/wilderness to start off with more Ki. Also try to put Concentration in a yellow augment slot if you have it and get your Concentration Skill, Constitution and Wisdom as high as you can so you can store more Ki while running around to find the next monster.
    Last edited by Firewall; 11-01-2013 at 12:36 PM.
    Shuricannon 2.0 Drow 20 Monk Thrower for DPS, Nethercannon Shadar-Kai 15 Pal/3 Monk/2 Rog Thrower for Past Lifes
    Shiradi Shuricannon Drow 20 Monk Thrower for Defense, Shiradi Warcannon Warforged 11 Wiz/6 Monk/3 Rog Thrower...Throwers for the win

  10. #30
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firewall View Post
    True. But actually i very seldomly find myself below 50% health since this build also has a very high defense so patient tortoise fits in here much better. As a tip from me: Activate Sneak Mode before activating Wholeness of body. The +1 passive Ki bonus still stays active during meditation so when you are finished you are not only healed but have more Ki also.

    @Scrag: You can also use Meditation at the start of a quest/wilderness to start off with more Ki. Also try to put Concentration in a yellow augment slot if you have it and get your Concentration Skill, Constitution and Wisdom as high as you can so you can store more Ki while running around to find the next monster.
    I just finished capping a basically cookie cutter version of this build (Amputation in my sig below) on a third life drow (2x Rogue PL) and made a few spelltouched ml24 corm shuris.

    at lvl 28 with treads and a lootgen +10 Dex item I'm at 60 dex in wind stance IV (or I think 56 in Water with more wisdom).

    So I went to the dummy, Pinned it, and hit 10k Stars with a spelltouched in double rainbow.

    And then my screen exploded in a brilliant, beautiful explosion of impossible quickly scrolling numbers and 37 hundred million shiradi procs.

    Don't even try to understand everything that's going on. It is absolutely absurd. And with CE on and in Earth Stance I have a ridiculous 125 AC. And x1 Crit.

    This build is sick.

  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    I just finished capping a basically cookie cutter version of this build on a third life drow (2x Rogue PL) and made a few spelltouched ml24 corm shuris.

    at lvl 28 with treads and a lootgen +10 Dex item I'm at 60 dex in wind stance IV (or I think 56 in Water with more wisdom).

    So I went to the dummy, Pinned it, and hit 10k Stars with a spelltouched in double rainbow.

    And then my screen exploded in a brilliant, beautiful explosion of impossible quickly scrolling numbers and 37 hundred million shiradi procs.

    Don't even try to understand everything that's going on. It is absolutely absurd. And with CE on and in Earth Stance I have a ridiculous 125 AC. And x1 Crit.

    This build is sick.
    The Book of Syncletica guide now has a section on the build at the conclusion of the Ninja Spy chapter that points directly to this thread.

    I didn't copy in the build specifics there since it's not the guide's purpose, since the thread is far more interactive and informative on what people can do with it. I did note the challenges that the build has to overcome, which has been discussed a bit in Firewall's initial post as well as throughout.

    I'm looking very forward to copying Jakeelala's extremely impressive star-throwing! Nice!
    Editor, The Book of Syncletica: An unofficial DDO Monk Guide, and Stormreach Shadows: An unofficial DDO Stealth Guide
    The Order of Syncletica: A DDO-flavored blog on Monks and gameplay and more
    (formerly known as Spencerian)

  12. #32
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firewall View Post
    Drow:
    - 20 starting DEX
    - Free Shuriken Expertise and Shuriken Proficiency Feats
    - +4 to Hit and Damage
    - Venomed Blades (1d8 poison damage)
    - Spell Resistance

    My only comment is that you don't have venomed blades in your actual enhancements list so this build doesn't have it.

  13. #33
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeelala View Post
    My only comment is that you don't have venomed blades in your actual enhancements list so this build doesn't have it.
    Yes. I just wanted to show up the potential of using drow. In the early stages of the build i used venomed blades but found that the action point cost is too high for my liking in contrast to other more valuable enhancements. Others might be of different opinion and since enhancements can be respecced quite easily you can use the setup you like best. The same goes for the distribution of Epic Destiny points. There is quite some room for customization here and i still tweak and change things based on my gear and preferred playstyle.

    By the way your earlier post is the biggest compliment you can make to this build so thank you very much!

    @Spencerian: Thank you so much for adding my build to your guide and adding all the positive feedback to your blog!

    Thank you for the comments guys!
    Last edited by Firewall; 11-01-2013 at 03:31 PM.
    Shuricannon 2.0 Drow 20 Monk Thrower for DPS, Nethercannon Shadar-Kai 15 Pal/3 Monk/2 Rog Thrower for Past Lifes
    Shiradi Shuricannon Drow 20 Monk Thrower for Defense, Shiradi Warcannon Warforged 11 Wiz/6 Monk/3 Rog Thrower...Throwers for the win

  14. #34
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    I saw this concept and it looks really nifty. Nifty enough that I was wanting to play around with some variants, but I have a question that I can't seem to find the answer to, namely: what are the actual mechanics for 10k stars? What is each point of WIS actually doing for me with this skill? I want high WIS anyway for DC and such but knowing exactly what it does would be very nice.

    Thanks!

  15. #35
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammond View Post
    I saw this concept and it looks really nifty. Nifty enough that I was wanting to play around with some variants, but I have a question that I can't seem to find the answer to, namely: what are the actual mechanics for 10k stars? What is each point of WIS actually doing for me with this skill? I want high WIS anyway for DC and such but knowing exactly what it does would be very nice.

    Thanks!
    Actually noone knows for sure and of course it is hard to determine since WIS boosts two things at once: the chance to throw additional shuriken and the number of additional shuriken.
    I have read only one actual test on the forums:

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/351973

    it basically comes to the conclusion that you get a 3.125% bonus to overall damage per +1 WIS modifier.

    Also i remember reading from someone on the forums that 10k stars uses five times the WIS stat modifier to determine the percent chance for additional shuriken but i cannot find the source anymore.
    Last edited by Firewall; 11-03-2013 at 07:02 PM.
    Shuricannon 2.0 Drow 20 Monk Thrower for DPS, Nethercannon Shadar-Kai 15 Pal/3 Monk/2 Rog Thrower for Past Lifes
    Shiradi Shuricannon Drow 20 Monk Thrower for Defense, Shiradi Warcannon Warforged 11 Wiz/6 Monk/3 Rog Thrower...Throwers for the win

  16. #36
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Still staring at the non-monk option in that other thread, but been thinking ... and man it sucks that the ninja capstone and halfling crit range are still not working.

    That said, crits are important, but not as key as rate of fire and the adds (except for the crit-driven adds like Radiance).
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  17. #37
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    Still staring at the non-monk option in that other thread, but been thinking ... and man it sucks that the ninja capstone and halfling crit range are still not working.
    As i said earlier in this thread only the crit range part of the monk capstone does not work. You still get +2 DEX and Vorpal on shuriken. Since the crit range from halfling master thrower does not work either it makes no difference. But when they fix it you will be better off with the ninja spy capstone and have more fun with poison and on crit no save procs.
    Shuricannon 2.0 Drow 20 Monk Thrower for DPS, Nethercannon Shadar-Kai 15 Pal/3 Monk/2 Rog Thrower for Past Lifes
    Shiradi Shuricannon Drow 20 Monk Thrower for Defense, Shiradi Warcannon Warforged 11 Wiz/6 Monk/3 Rog Thrower...Throwers for the win

  18. #38
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firewall View Post
    As i said earlier in this thread only the crit range part of the monk capstone does not work. You still get +2 DEX and Vorpal on shuriken. Since the crit range from halfling master thrower does not work either it makes no difference. But when they fix it you will be better off with the ninja spy capstone and have more fun with poison and on crit no save procs.
    Drow obviously works; any thoughts on other races? Elf and halfling are the only that really come to mind as real potential options.

    Drow: one feat ahead, bonus flat-damage to shuriken, bonus SR
    Elf: increased ROF w/ skill
    Halfling: potential crit range, extra sneak dice
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  19. #39
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    Drow obviously works; any thoughts on other races? Elf and halfling are the only that really come to mind as real potential options.

    Drow: one feat ahead, bonus flat-damage to shuriken, bonus SR
    Elf: increased ROF w/ skill
    Halfling: potential crit range, extra sneak dice
    Drow has no extended crit range that could not work. And since they didn't change the descriptions of Master Thrower and Ninja Master so far i still think they will fix that bug with crit ranges. Especially if more people tend to roll a throwing weapon focused character.

    I'm not sure if you read the whole thread but i already discussed why i think this build has a better synergy with drow instead of halfling. Elf does not even come close to those two. Of course you can always make flavor deviations from this build but it will not be the same, probably play different and won't be as effective in what this build excels at. But if you have a different playstyle or like halflings or elves over drow then maybe for you something else is more fun even if it is probably less effective or has a different build focus.
    Shuricannon 2.0 Drow 20 Monk Thrower for DPS, Nethercannon Shadar-Kai 15 Pal/3 Monk/2 Rog Thrower for Past Lifes
    Shiradi Shuricannon Drow 20 Monk Thrower for Defense, Shiradi Warcannon Warforged 11 Wiz/6 Monk/3 Rog Thrower...Throwers for the win

  20. #40
    Founder Dorian's Avatar
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    Some great info in this thread. I was PUG'ing with the throwing spec monk and he was just destroying things... so I started searching and found this post.

    I think you are missing out on DPS by staying pure monk. Yes,the vorpal ability is nice, but it's 5 average damage per hit. Compare that to all of the potential sneak damage from rogue levels.

    I've decided to try a halfling 13rogue/7monk build. I'll craft a radiance shuriken and have a deception weapon in off-hand (and golden guile for neck). I will put points into the Mechanic tree (enough to get the +10% doubleshot) and can still get Venomed Blades from the Assassin line. and get the monk throwing weapon enhancements. With the rogue Opportunist feat, Precision feat, and armor-piercing from black dragon robe... I'm not seeing any issues with getting sneak damage on high-fort mobs.

    The one thing I'm not sure about is how doubleshot works when using 10kstars. I think its not working as described and not reducing the doubleshot chance (or how long is the reduction?).

    Actually, the best thrower build is probably a rogue/monk/ranger build... but I'm going to stick with a 13rogue/7monk.
    Last edited by Dorian; 11-08-2013 at 04:06 PM.
    Dorian

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