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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Is there anyone who has a current assassin who can help me figure out this business of the GS radiance rapier and exactly what it would gain me? I need to figure out whether to go to the trouble of making it.

    Thanks.
    With the new enhancements an assassin would actually be better served by a GS radiance dagger.

    Radiance on a weapon is very nice for a rogue because it causes blindness on critical hits. (This is why rapiers used to be recommended because of their high crit profile but with the tier 5 from the assassin tree daggers have the same profile and a higher multiplier)

    Blindness is good because blind mobs can be sneak attacked even if you have agro and mobs also have a high chance of missing while blind.

    For and assassin sneak attacks will be a massive portion of your damage so anything that makes this more likely is great.

    Also be on the look out for deception items which also have a chance of letting you sneak attack a mob with agro.

  2. #42
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    So.. back to the matter of whether to take Weapon Finesse or not.

    For some reason making a green steel dagger just seems.. strange. It's an awful lot of components and almost guaranteed that I'd never use it again. Is there anything comparable?

    Thanks for the help.

  3. #43
    Community Member Coyopa's Avatar
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    Well, you know I'm a fan of kukris In all seriousness, the nice thing about kukri is it is still a slashing weapon and also not an exotic weapon. So, if you have any twf or s&b melee lives left, you could still use it again. Otherwise, if you feel you would get more mileage from a rapier, then I would just make that. I am not sure if you are a "hit 20 and TR" kind of person, but if you are, then I would probably not worry about optimizing for the Assassin tier 5 enhancement. Even if you do not hit 20 and TR, if you are uncertain about ever being rogue again, then make the type of weapon that is going to serve you again in a future life. Alternatively, hold off on making it until you determine whether you will eventually be a rogue again and let that guide your decision. As long as you have fun, that's all that matters.

    EDIT: Oh, if you are uncertain whether to take Weapon Finesse, I would take it and see what weapons you end up using most. If you don't need it, get Fred to trade it for Precision (available to rogues as early as level 3 for sure, possibly even from level 1).

  4. #44
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    Thanks for the reply.

    I don't TR at 20, I like to run the epic content as well. I just get bored of it eventually and then I want to TR, and my current character is not holding my attention very well at all.

    One thing that bugs me about focusing on daggers and kukris is that they have different damage types so I'd have to take two different IC feats. It almost seems to make more sense to take Weapon Finesse in that case and have access to daggers, rapiers and short swords.

    I think I'm going to get the shards I need for the GS and then hold off until I figure out how much I like rogue and how the character is progressing.

  5. #45
    Community Member Coyopa's Avatar
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    That sounds a reasonable approach. I took the second IC feat on my rogue, but I am not sure how many people will want to do this. Trade-offs and all that.

  6. #46
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    Yes, tradeoffs are always the way.

    Any thoughts on race for a pure rogue? All the enhancements are new so it's unclear what would be best. I like the idea of halfling because it works well for flavor and because I've never played one before, but humans are very flexible and the extra feat could be handy.

    Wonder if any dragonmarks would be worth considering. The Jorasco one for halfling or the one that gives DD for human could both be quite handy. How many dragonmark uses per rest do you get now, anyone know?

  7. #47
    Community Member Coyopa's Avatar
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    Human would be nice for the healing amp and the extra feat, plus the new "Don't count me out!" is very nice (go to -30 hp instead of -10). I like halflings for the extra sneak attack dice in the racial tree, plus they get +4 hide, +2 move silently, and +2 dex, which is always helpful. I prefer them to elves because I prefer to lose 2 strength rather than 2 constitution. Halfling and elf make it easier to get to 21 dex to get Improved Sneak Attack at level 21, while with human you'd want a +4 or +5 dex tome to minimize the investment in dexterity required to reach 21 dex. Of course, that assumes you are putting your level ups into intelligence to maximize your Assassinate DC. If you're investing in dexterity, then human is no better or worse really than halfling or elf in that regard. Drow would be a viable choice, too - I just feel that their +2 cha is not worth it, but you could start with 10 str, 18 dex, 14 con, 18 int, 8 wis, and 10 cha (depending on how much you are willing to dump strength).

    Anyway, I like halfling, but there are good arguments for the other races of course, which makes it a tough call.

  8. #48
    Community Member Gizeh's Avatar
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    IMO halfling is really nice, just by spending 7 AP on the core abilities you get +2 dex and +3 to all saves - and then there's those tasty 3 extra SA dice if you want to spend some more AP.

    I haven't really looked at the other racial trees yet, I only played my rogue, monk and arti since the enhancement pass, and all three happen to be halflings, so I cannot tell what synergies the other races may have with the rogue class.

    I'm not sure if the halfling healing dragonmarks are worth it on a rogue though, at low levels I usually keep my rogues alive with potions, at mid levels I use wands and at high levels heal scrolls, and now that rogues can get +3 UMD from enhancements it should be a bit easier to get the required bonuses - although there's nothing wrong with using the dragonmarks for failsafe healing.

  9. #49
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    There do seem to be some nice Halfling enhancements, though some require spending quite a few APs. With human I could get +1 Dex and +1 Int, maybe better for an assassin?

    Thanks for the thoughts.

  10. #50
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    At low levels the Sky Pirate dagger in 3bc is a freaking beast. It's like a one-handed Carnifex.

    http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Sky_Pirate's_Dagger

    The dagger boosts are kinda nice; I for one have been sitting on a ton of epic'd daggers that are generally toys.

    Curious - do the rogue enhancements affect throwing daggers? I TR'd before checking.
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  11. #51
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Race-wise, now that Drow can get INT that's not shabby at all for DC-monkeys.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  12. #52
    Community Member wildbynature's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Thanks for the feedback and ideas, much appreciated.

    If I want to use rapiers then I need Weapon Finesse. Is it worth it? There are some nice rapiers (even the one from the challenges looks pretty cool) and I was thinking of using them. Am I better off to save a feat and restrict myself to daggers and kukris?

    There are very few named kukris in the game. There are quite a few daggers, but they seem to do less base damage than rapiers and have a narrower crit profile.

    ETA: wildbynature, the wiki says the half-elf paladin delittante adds up to +2 to saves. Are there enhancements that extend that?
    sorry about the late reply, but the enhancement line allows you to use up to +5 of your charisma score to all your saves.

    When it comes to weapon finesse, I took it, but with the changes to to hit, you don't really need it as long as you have enough strength to carry a decent amount. It does benefit kukris and daggers as well as rapiers, though. I know that a lot of people dump weapon finesse for insightful reflexes, but I liked having a high dex as my primary stat. I didn't need insightful reflexes so I took weapon finesse.
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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowowl View Post
    Things that really are not importent on a rogue build
    dump wisdom and don't even worry about your spot skill trust me it's a waste of time just get a high evasion/reflex and find the traps the quick way by stepping in them lol I know many rogues that worry about spot it really doesn't matter at all. (but by all means max the skill out since you will have enough skill points just dont' worry about wisdom bonus to it)
    if you are a multi-tr you likely know where most traps are in quests anyway.
    I generally agree with what Shadowowl suggests, except, with a high INT rogue, there's no reason to skimp on spot. By all means, don't put points in WIS, rely on gear for a boost, but spot also helps you pick up where other stealthy enemies are.

    I suggest maxing spot, search, disable, open locks, move silent, and hide as a matter of course.

    I also--on my high-INT rogues--tend to also max UMD, bluff, jump, and listen as a personal preference. UMD to allow easier self-heals and use of things like the Cacophonic Verge wand (a silly little sound wand that splashes damage through walls). Bluff more for pulling enemies than dumping aggro. Jump, well, because JUMP!!!. Listen--with spot--because I don't like surprises when it comes to enemies coming out of the woodwork.

    Also, for DEX/INT rogues, look for the following weapons:

    At level 4: Tiefling Assassin's Blade and Sky Pirate's Dagger.

    While DEX-to-hit and damage is now universal for daggers, these two have some interesting critical profiles. For low level weapons, the base damage is okay but the crits are really nice.

    At level 8-10: The Zephyr short sword and Flint Dagger. These two are also DEX-to-hit and damage, so old news for the dagger, but the base damage at a low level is nice. The Zephyr is 2[2d4] base damage and the Flint is 2[1d6]. Ancient Vulkoorim Dagger is interesting too with a 1.50[1d6] base damage plus 2 slots (a red and a purple).

    At level 12: Guardian of the Liturgy (base damage 1d10 dagger) has some nice fodder for your "3[W] attacks".

    As far as green steel goes, I haven't made GS melee weapons, mostly ran rogue mechanics with GS bows and radiance is nice when you use it with something like improved precise shot or--perhaps--cleave on a melee weapon that has a nice chance for lots of blindness at once with a decent critical range. The kukri (with a 18-20 or 15% range, going to 30% at level 12 and improved critical: slashing) would be nice, but it sort of requires you to commit to improved crit: slashing when most of your other rogue weapons and/or finessable rogue weapons are piercing weapons.

    The problem with radiance though, is that--unless you are able to apply it to a whole lot of enemies at once (like IPS for ranged weapons or cleave)--or you're controlling, carefully, how many you're fighting at once (like bluff pulling), you're putting yourself at risk. And--after you get assassinate about level 12--you're able to simply assassinate many enemies quicker and less painfully one-at-a-time without breaking stealth without needing to attack them, blind them, then turn on the sneak attack damage again. So, if you're max-INT and going assassin, it might not be worth it to make a radiance weapon unless you plan on general melee for some reason and want to commit to kukri, improved crit slashing, etc.

    Another fun GS item--your mileage may vary--is Ooze II for the stackable ooze sunder effect, frost/acid damage (best as a foil to your radiance weapon for use on flame-resistant enemies and vermin) and the occasional ooze-spawn. The ooze sunder effect is about a 25-30% non-crit governed proc rate as well. So, if you stick it on a low-crit threat weapon, you'll still get the lower enemy AC off it.

    (Although spawned ooze can be a pain as they draw aggro while they follow you, which can make sneaking an issue, and you can't dismiss them.)

    Good luck!

  14. #54
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    Great stuff, thanks.

    I was just cleaning out my bank and I have a fair number of light weapons saved up, lots to play with.

    Based on an in-game suggestion I'm looking at Drow for race. +2 Dex and +2 Int work nicely and it has the "auto-search" feature.

    Plus Drow assassin works nicely theme-wise.

  15. #55
    Community Member Bolo_Grubb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyopa View Post
    If you're going Assassin, then be aware that Assassinate's DC is dictated by your intelligence and you get extra sneak damage with higher intelligence. This is a quick break-down of my rogue (3rd life as a rogue):

    Halfling, True Neutral
    Creation:
    12 str
    18 dex
    16 con
    16 int
    8 wis
    8 int

    I put all level ups into Intelligence.

    Feats:
    TWF, ITWF, GTWF
    IC: Piercing
    IC: Slashing
    Precision
    Insightful Reflexes

    Class Feats:
    Opportunist
    Improved Evasion
    Skill Mastery
    Skill Mastery

    I rely on fortification by-pass and deception/improved deception and bluff to keep my sneak attack damage high. Precision and Opportunist give you 35% fortification by-pass. I use Grim Precision when in Shadowdancer ED for another 15%. Wrack Construct and Blasting Chime for another 60% against constructs. I get good sneak attack damage against all but the most powerful undead and constructs, and other than oozes there is little else that is immune.

    Enhancements (new system):
    Assassin Tree
    Full core abilities
    Full sneak attack training line
    Full ranks in Stealthy
    Full ranks in Damage Boost
    Int +1 at tiers 3 and 4
    1 point in Critical Accuracy
    1 point in Critical Damage
    Execute
    1 point in Killer
    Assassinate
    Full ranks in Measure the Foe
    Knife Specialization

    Mechanic Tree
    First four core abilities
    Full ranks in Lacerating Shots (mis-labeled, increases your search/disable speed - tested, works)
    Full ranks in Mechanics
    Full ranks in Wand and Scroll Mastery
    Full ranks in Wracking Strike

    Thief-Acrobat Tree
    1st core ability
    Full ranks in Faster Sneaking
    1 rank in Charming
    Full ranks in Subtlety

    This leaves room for taking enhancements from the Halfling racial tree, if I recall correctly, to further boost my sneak damage.
    I am planning nearly the same thing

    Halfling, True Neutral
    Creation:
    10 str
    18 dex
    14 con
    18 int
    8 wis
    8 int

    I will put all level ups into Dex.

    At level 23 my Assassin dc should be between 52 and 60 depending on Fate twist and active Epic Destinies and gear. I be using just daggers. Sacrificial Dagger, Blade of the High Priestess, Agony, House P Spy dagger (epic) and the Epic Midnight greetings for the +2 to assassinate.

    Hafling is a natural fit, but then so is Drow, might have to look at that.
    Kill'em all and let their favorite deity sort'em out
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  16. #56
    Community Member Coyopa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todkaninchen View Post
    I generally agree with what Shadowowl suggests, except, with a high INT rogue, there's no reason to skimp on spot. By all means, don't put points in WIS, rely on gear for a boost, but spot also helps you pick up where other stealthy enemies are.
    Well, to be fair, Shadowowl didn't say to dump Spot - only to not worry about putting points into wisdom to help boost it, which is true since the most anyone can really afford into wisdom would probably be four points, which is only +2 Spot.

    As for the radiance weapons, rapiers have a very nice crit profile and do not require the investment into IC: Slashing. The point of the radiance weapon is to blind the opponent you are actively attacking to ensure a constant stream of sneak damage. Bluff helps with that, as does deception/improved deception.

    I would definitely recommend against ooze sundering. It's hard enough to manage a hireling and keep them parked far enough away to not draw aggro. Having an ooze hot on your heels is not going to be an improvement.

  17. #57
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyopa View Post
    I disagree with bumping charisma over strength. It takes a while (and gear) to really get the UMD into the levels you want (30+), but on his second life, my rogue was running around with a 16 charisma and a UMD high enough to no-fail Resurrection scrolls - I think it was about 43 or 44 and might have been a bit higher. His charisma was 8 base, +2 tome, +6 item. Granted, he also has tier 3 epic Spyglass from the Cove, tier 3 epic Spare Hand, and Concordant Opposition goggles (+6 charisma skills). Still, getting the UMD into the usable range does not require an investment into charisma and, I think, it would be better invested in strength, dexterity, constitution, or intelligence.
    First, CON is one of those that you invest in regardless. I just don’t bother mentioning it.

    Second, I went with the Wiki recommendation (I have a Halfling), and started with a base CHR of 8. In order to get my UMD up to decent levels – and this is with epic spyglass from CC, which is fairly easy to farm – I had to quaff a Heroism pot, so that I could cast a Greater Heroism scroll to improve my UMD for the rest of my buffs. It was an annoying PITA. This time around, when I LR-ed, I changed-out some STR for CHR, and I can basically drop the pot from that sequence, and it makes things easier. Plus, when you go proc-based weapons damage, the STR increases don’t really mean that much overall for DPS. At least I haven’t seen a change that was worth notice.

    Yeah, he can farm out the ConOpp goggles – and they would definitely be re-usable for his Competionist run – but now that’s 2 GS items that need to be crafted (as it looks like he / she is going down the radiance weapon route) , and without serious grinding of Shroud, I don’t see that happening in a first-life timeframe. I could be wrong about this. I just know how long it took me to grind out a couple of GS items for one toon in particular.

    I don’t recall at present if I have a +6 CHR item on my toon. I’m really in the middle of getting my pally into epic levels before I TR my rogue.

    As with many things, however, I think a lot of it depends on your focus.

  18. #58
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    I do have some advantages when it comes to UMD: Artificer past life, +4 tome, +2 UMD tome, Crafting level to make Persuasion items, and a +6 Cha skills GS accessory. I should be okay on the UMD front.

    Thanks again for all the advice!

  19. #59
    Community Member Coyopa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    First, CON is one of those that you invest in regardless. I just don’t bother mentioning it.

    Second, I went with the Wiki recommendation (I have a Halfling), and started with a base CHR of 8. In order to get my UMD up to decent levels – and this is with epic spyglass from CC, which is fairly easy to farm – I had to quaff a Heroism pot, so that I could cast a Greater Heroism scroll to improve my UMD for the rest of my buffs. It was an annoying PITA. This time around, when I LR-ed, I changed-out some STR for CHR, and I can basically drop the pot from that sequence, and it makes things easier. Plus, when you go proc-based weapons damage, the STR increases don’t really mean that much overall for DPS. At least I haven’t seen a change that was worth notice.

    Yeah, he can farm out the ConOpp goggles – and they would definitely be re-usable for his Competionist run – but now that’s 2 GS items that need to be crafted (as it looks like he / she is going down the radiance weapon route) , and without serious grinding of Shroud, I don’t see that happening in a first-life timeframe. I could be wrong about this. I just know how long it took me to grind out a couple of GS items for one toon in particular.

    I don’t recall at present if I have a +6 CHR item on my toon. I’m really in the middle of getting my pally into epic levels before I TR my rogue.

    As with many things, however, I think a lot of it depends on your focus.
    Yea, for me my rogue is my main now and has been for a while. He is the best geared character I have, bar none. My monk is my 2nd best geared character, while my ranger is third. So, you can see how my main characters have changed in the three years I have been playing (seems like longer). My rogue is at the point where I do not consider wisdom or charisma to be valid stats in which to invest outside of getting a +6 augment or item plus whatever tome I can pick up for them. On a first life rogue, I can see investing in either or both to some degree.

  20. #60
    The Hatchery Nibor's Avatar
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    As far as Radiance, it's okay. Deception/Improved Deception/Whatever they call it now (deception I-V or whatever) is better, IMHO, especially now that it bundles Sneak Attack attack/damage into the mix. At epic levels, using 2xRebellion and wearing eGoldenGuile, you're getting sneak attack really almost all the time. On sneak attack immune mobs, I can hit Assassin's Trick (which is SLOW and often I don't bother using it, stops your swing for too long) or better yet, just wait for the 20 and then let shadowdancer ED take their sneak attack immunity away.

    I went dex based, and it's much easier now after the enhancement pass. I put all level ups into Dex, for damage, and my assassinate DC is still up in the mid-50s, and I rarely use the eMG as I want the damage from Rebellion instead, even in offhand.
    I had removed Weapon Finesse, but that's because I leveled up before the enhancement pass, and it was garbage then. Now it's not bad at all, although with Rebellion or Agony as your weapon choices you're still in good shape without it.

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