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  1. #1
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    Default Suggestions for someone new to rogue?

    I'm a serial TRer and next on the list is rogue. I'm hoping to start one in a few weeks after playing some of the new content.

    I want to make an assassin and I've been trying to pick up tips on builds from others. One idea that I got from a friend was making a radiance GS weapon and using that in conjunction with the ability that lets you assassinate on sneak attacks. It seems both cool and powerful.

    I've also seen some very high DPS builds that use khopeshes. They appear to do more damage but since the crit profile is lower, wouldn't activate assassinate as much. And of course it costs a feat.

    Any ideas on how these compare?

    Any other suggestions?

    Thanks.

  2. #2
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    I've only been playing around at lower levels but the Thief-Acrobat line feels like a lot of fun so far with the quarterstaff. Definitely worth considering in my limited experience.

  3. #3
    Community Member Coyopa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    I'm a serial TRer and next on the list is rogue. I'm hoping to start one in a few weeks after playing some of the new content.

    I want to make an assassin and I've been trying to pick up tips on builds from others. One idea that I got from a friend was making a radiance GS weapon and using that in conjunction with the ability that lets you assassinate on sneak attacks. It seems both cool and powerful.

    I've also seen some very high DPS builds that use khopeshes. They appear to do more damage but since the crit profile is lower, wouldn't activate assassinate as much. And of course it costs a feat.

    Any ideas on how these compare?

    Any other suggestions?

    Thanks.
    If you're going Assassin, then be aware that Assassinate's DC is dictated by your intelligence and you get extra sneak damage with higher intelligence. This is a quick break-down of my rogue (3rd life as a rogue):

    Halfling, True Neutral
    Creation:
    12 str
    18 dex
    16 con
    16 int
    8 wis
    8 int

    I put all level ups into Intelligence.

    Feats:
    TWF, ITWF, GTWF
    IC: Piercing
    IC: Slashing
    Precision
    Insightful Reflexes

    Class Feats:
    Opportunist
    Improved Evasion
    Skill Mastery
    Skill Mastery

    I rely on fortification by-pass and deception/improved deception and bluff to keep my sneak attack damage high. Precision and Opportunist give you 35% fortification by-pass. I use Grim Precision when in Shadowdancer ED for another 15%. Wrack Construct and Blasting Chime for another 60% against constructs. I get good sneak attack damage against all but the most powerful undead and constructs, and other than oozes there is little else that is immune.

    Enhancements (new system):
    Assassin Tree
    Full core abilities
    Full sneak attack training line
    Full ranks in Stealthy
    Full ranks in Damage Boost
    Int +1 at tiers 3 and 4
    1 point in Critical Accuracy
    1 point in Critical Damage
    Execute
    1 point in Killer
    Assassinate
    Full ranks in Measure the Foe
    Knife Specialization

    Mechanic Tree
    First four core abilities
    Full ranks in Lacerating Shots (mis-labeled, increases your search/disable speed - tested, works)
    Full ranks in Mechanics
    Full ranks in Wand and Scroll Mastery
    Full ranks in Wracking Strike

    Thief-Acrobat Tree
    1st core ability
    Full ranks in Faster Sneaking
    1 rank in Charming
    Full ranks in Subtlety

    This leaves room for taking enhancements from the Halfling racial tree, if I recall correctly, to further boost my sneak damage.

  4. #4
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    Cool stuff, thanks. I did know that assassins were Int-based.

    Any thoughts on the idea of using radiance to blind on a critical opening up an automatic sneak attack?

    Is the khopesh idea incompatible with an assassin build? I was looking at this but it strikes me as somewhat unconventional and I'm not sure I quite follow it.

    Brendael, I'll look at the thief-acrobat stuff as well.. though I've somewhat got my heart set on an assassin.

  5. #5
    Community Member shadowowl's Avatar
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    high Int and good Dex seem to be key these days you need Int for several things not the least of which is your assassinate DC if you have low int you will fail your assassinates. and with changes to allow dex for damage on many weapons now it leaves rogue's primary stats as dex for reflex and twf. the Int is good for traps too and skills with a good int you can get nearly all the skills you will want and dont' forget con
    there are big bonuses to daggers and kukri's now so don't rule them out as weapons
    I do agree radiance weapon is a must have i've done rogue builds since the cap was 10 built every type of rogue you can think of currently have a 13 rogue 7 monk which is a very fun build acrobat/spy though i changed it to assassin spy yesterday after update to play around with enhancments.
    have done mechanic/arti/fighter as well which is very cool
    but still my favorite rogue build is a very simple pure 20 rogue assassin int based killing machine. ripping through epics insta killing everything in my path with assassinate is pretty amazing and fun.

    Things that really are not importent on a rogue build
    dump wisdom and don't even worry about your spot skill trust me it's a waste of time just get a high evasion/reflex and find the traps the quick way by stepping in them lol I know many rogues that worry about spot it really doesn't matter at all. (but by all means max the skill out since you will have enough skill points just dont' worry about wisdom bonus to it)
    if you are a multi-tr you likely know where most traps are in quests anyway.

    as for race halfling, elf, drow, human, h-elf are all good each with their own benifits is one stronger then the next? likely depending on your style of play and build. if you are not going to max out your umd to self heal with scrolls then I would strongerly suggest going h-elf with either cleric or fvs dil so you can self heal. you need some way to self heal other then hires because more and more divines don't heal the party anymore. Self healing is critical
    a decent chr score you dont' need much but I wouldn't go lower then 12 and max your umd with maybe some umd item so you can use heal scrolls later is rather important if you ask me. or if you dont' want umd take 13 wisdom and go cleric dilitent with h-elf this will give you heal scrolls later.

    at any rate enjoy rogue no matter which path you take acrobat, asssassin or mechanic in my opinion they are all very fun. (if you go mechanic ignore the dog you get it sucks they should make it like the arti dog rogue mech dog is gimp)

  6. #6
    Community Member Arnhelm's Avatar
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    After spending a few hours putting the new enhancements on my rogues, I suggest going Assassin as much as possible. You might want some enhancements from other trees, such as disable device, but most of the Assassin tree is decent under the new system.
    Once upon a time, I was part of a team, and we saved some children. What have you done with your life?

  7. #7
    Community Member Coyopa's Avatar
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    Radiance is a good idea. Blind opponents are vulnerable to sneak attacks. When you are able, Epic Midnight Greetings (if you go epic levels) helps because it gives +2 Assassinate DC. Improved Deception and Deception make opponents vulnerable to sneak damage, but if you are not going into epic levels there isn't that much really that is worth while with Deception on it, in my opinion. Improved Deception seems to be mostly on epic level gear, but I have not researched this thoroughly.

    I would avoid khopeshes. They are not compatible with an int/dex build and, I feel, they will probably be a relic from the past going forward. Assassin enhancements give you the ability to use dex for damage with kukris and daggers. If you have weapon finesse (which my build does not), then you are able to use dex for damage with all light weapons (light maces, rapiers, etc). So, if you do not take weapon finesse as a feat, then stick with daggers and kukris. The Assassin core ability gives you proficiency with kukris. Given all of this, khopesh is not worth the feat.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnhelm View Post
    After spending a few hours putting the new enhancements on my rogues, I suggest going Assassin as much as possible. You might want some enhancements from other trees, such as disable device, but most of the Assassin tree is decent under the new system.
    My current character has 2 rogue levels and I've found that even the items in the first two tiers of assassin are better in many ways than what I can get with my 12 fighter levels.

    Coyopa: thanks. I kinda thought the same, though I've saved up quite a few khopeshes and am eager to try them out. Maybe ranger life..

  9. #9
    Community Member Coyopa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    My current character has 2 rogue levels and I've found that even the items in the first two tiers of assassin are better in many ways than what I can get with my 12 fighter levels.

    Coyopa: thanks. I kinda thought the same, though I've saved up quite a few khopeshes and am eager to try them out. Maybe ranger life..
    You're welcome. I just noticed your sig. I play on Sarlona. So, I'll set up a new chat box for that channel and join in.

    Main: Imahidden You Can't See Me (13 rogue, 3rd life)

    Alts:
    Ahchuykak (24 monk, 2nd life)
    Anaiadeia (16 cleric, 2nd life)
    Coyopa (25 ranger, 2nd life, AA)
    Camalos (L15, 8 ranger/6 monk/1 rogue, 2nd life, will be 12 ranger/7 monk/1 rogue)

    Anyway, those are my primary alts, but I have others. I have a 20 barbarian that will not a barbarian anymore eventually. I just have to decide what new PJ build I want to turn him into (he has eAGA and I am not giving up all the hard work I put into that weapon!).

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyopa View Post
    Mechanic Tree
    ...
    Full ranks in Lacerating Shots (mis-labeled, increases your search/disable speed - tested, works)
    Just tested this and it does NOT increase speeds. It took me ~3 seconds both with and without this in my mechanic tree.

  11. #11
    Community Member Coyopa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellsien View Post
    Just tested this and it does NOT increase speeds. It took me ~3 seconds both with and without this in my mechanic tree.
    Strange. I tested it last night and it worked then. I am hoping it is mis-labeled and not that they removed it from the game. It is/was a fantastic enhancement.

  12. #12
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    Bumping this thread for a question.

    With my lack of familiarity with the Assassin pre before the enhancement pass, I'm not sure exactly how things have been rearranged now. Which enhancement/feature is it that works with the blinding feature of the radiance GS to enable assassination on any critical (as opposed to just on a 20?)

    Is it the tier 5 "Assassinate"? If so, does anyone know what the cooldown is on that enhancement?

    Thanks.

  13. #13
    Community Member Coyopa's Avatar
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    It is the fifth core ability.

    EDIT: I cannot recall exactly what it is named, but it is definitely the fifth core ability.

  14. #14
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    Thanks. According to the wiki that is: "Lethality: Any sneak attack that also counts as a vorpal strike (attack roll of 20 followed by critical confirmation) that you make will kill most living targets."

    It was one I thought might be it, but the language is confusing. It suggests it has to be a vorpal strike, which would be 5% of the time, as opposed to 30% of the time with improved critical on a rapier. Is it the former, or the latter?

    Also I guess it means that even though I could use the rapier at level 12, I wouldn't get the "blind-assasinate" ability until level 18, correct? Though I guess the blinding would still enable regular sneak attacks.

  15. #15
    Community Member Coyopa's Avatar
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    I think it always required a vorpal strike. Blinding would still be useful for you, especially since Lethality when you get it requires the vorpal strike to occur on a sneak attack, as well. And, yea, you cannot get it until level 18, but that is always how it was, too.

  16. #16
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    Thanks.

    I distinctly remember the individual I was consulting with tell me that the whole point was the wide crit range on the rapier enabling frequent assassinations. So I must be missing something somewhere.

  17. #17
    Community Member Coyopa's Avatar
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    They may have changed it in the pass, then.

  18. #18
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    I'm a serial TRer and next on the list is rogue. I'm hoping to start one in a few weeks after playing some of the new content.

    I want to make an assassin and I've been trying to pick up tips on builds from others. One idea that I got from a friend was making a radiance GS weapon and using that in conjunction with the ability that lets you assassinate on sneak attacks. It seems both cool and powerful.

    I've also seen some very high DPS builds that use khopeshes. They appear to do more damage but since the crit profile is lower, wouldn't activate assassinate as much. And of course it costs a feat.

    Any ideas on how these compare?

    Any other suggestions?

    Thanks.

    I suggest taking Assassin as it is probably the most “accessible” and a little more tangible to someone new to rogues.

    A lot of high-DPS builds rely on STR-based rogues (from what I’ve seen in the past). That means that with that type of rogue you’re relying on raw power to do your killing, placing maybe DEX first, STR second, and INT third. Then between crits, backstabs, and weapons procs is where you do your damage.

    The one thing about a rogue, however, is that you don’t need to go STR-based to be decent. TWF finesse-based, coupled with decent weapons sets (like dual vorpals, dual paralyzers, etc.) is incredibly strong, especially when coupled with Assassin stances like Venomed Blades, and vorpal strikes. You move from a high-base damage focus, to damage based on procs coupled with high DEX evasive damage mitigation.

    As much as people pan finesse-based DPS, with a rogue’s various capabilities the difference between finesse-based and STR-based is almost a wash when it comes to DPS, if you do it right. And with an Assassin, that high-DEX you’ll need for sneak – as a pre-requisite to invoking Assassinate – is very attractive. Plus, from what I hear, finesse-based got a huge boost in the EP. I ran my finesse-based rogue after re-doing his feats and enhancements, and I didn’t notice much of a change myself. Then again, I’m always surprised at just how fast he takes down a lot of mobs just in straight-up melee anyways.

    I don’t know about the radiance weapons and blinding being good with assassinations on sneak attacks, though I don’t think that should be your focus; mainly because this mirrors the vorpal strikes of the old PrE in a lot of ways. While it makes using radiance weapons a big plus in straight-up melee, you can do the same with bluff without the grind (unless they changed the mechanic for that too). You also may want to look into the Sap feat, to see if there is some synergy in this as well.

  19. #19
    Community Member Coyopa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I suggest taking Assassin as it is probably the most “accessible” and a little more tangible to someone new to rogues.

    A lot of high-DPS builds rely on STR-based rogues (from what I’ve seen in the past). That means that with that type of rogue you’re relying on raw power to do your killing, placing maybe DEX first, STR second, and INT third. Then between crits, backstabs, and weapons procs is where you do your damage.

    The one thing about a rogue, however, is that you don’t need to go STR-based to be decent. TWF finesse-based, coupled with decent weapons sets (like dual vorpals, dual paralyzers, etc.) is incredibly strong, especially when coupled with Assassin stances like Venomed Blades, and vorpal strikes. You move from a high-base damage focus, to damage based on procs coupled with high DEX evasive damage mitigation.

    As much as people pan finesse-based DPS, with a rogue’s various capabilities the difference between finesse-based and STR-based is almost a wash when it comes to DPS, if you do it right. And with an Assassin, that high-DEX you’ll need for sneak – as a pre-requisite to invoking Assassinate – is very attractive. Plus, from what I hear, finesse-based got a huge boost in the EP. I ran my finesse-based rogue after re-doing his feats and enhancements, and I didn’t notice much of a change myself. Then again, I’m always surprised at just how fast he takes down a lot of mobs just in straight-up melee anyways.

    I don’t know about the radiance weapons and blinding being good with assassinations on sneak attacks, though I don’t think that should be your focus; mainly because this mirrors the vorpal strikes of the old PrE in a lot of ways. While it makes using radiance weapons a big plus in straight-up melee, you can do the same with bluff without the grind (unless they changed the mechanic for that too). You also may want to look into the Sap feat, to see if there is some synergy in this as well.
    I really believe that str-based rogues are mostly a thing of the past. There is almost no synergy in the current rogue enhancements for a str-based rogue. In fact, if you are willing to use only daggers and kukris, you no longer even need weapon finesse. I dropped weapon finesse on my rogue for this reason (because he uses primarily a dagger and kukri at high levels, anyway), but I did consider keeping it for those times when I need to use maces. I chose not to because those are the times I am fighting undead, which means I am relying on procs to shorten the fight and I did not see that adding in a bit of extra damage in those times would really be such a great benefit that weapon finesse would be worthwhile.

    As far as radiance being worthwhile, if you build your rogue for massive sneak damage, then it is definitely worth the grind. Having a deception or improved deception item is, in my opinion, critical - as is high fortification by-pass. I've solo'd EE Claw of Vulkoor and had Warlock Sobrien spend virtually the entire fight looking away from me (and, when he was facing me, he mostly just stood there or was paralyzed or was frozen). With enough fort by-pass, you can sneak attack all but the most powerful undead and constructs (50% is the highest I could justify achieving on undead, but it is still significant).

  20. #20
    Community Member wildbynature's Avatar
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    I went dex/int/cha on my rogue life, and I loved it. I went half elf with the pally dilettante and got a free +5 to all my saves. I had enough umd to no fail heal scrolls. I used a rapier/short sword combo until I was able to get the blade of the high priestess and sacrificial dagger.
    --Pealea, Peawee, worldpeas, givepeas achance, and whoopea on Khyber

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