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  1. #1
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    Default Some thoughts on the game from a returning vet...

    I took a few months off and got into some ARPGing instead (MH2015), and now that I'm coming back to this more traditional RPG format with fresh eyes, I'm finding that I have a new appreciation for a lot of things I liked before, but I'm also finding some things I don't like as much, even some things that I used to have the opposite opinion about...

    So just for the sake of discussion, here's my fresh thoughts and impressions on DDO (and some may just be due to me not knowing about other new changes):

    1. Movement is still the biggest thing that drives me to log out. Its better now with some expanded teleport options, but still, jogging around between quests, or slogging out to the quest entrance is just such a drag. I used to be a big proponent of "travel is part of the game", this is the big thing that I've changed my tune on...but if you could get to any quest in the game from any town area within like 30 seconds, the game would be so much more dynamic and engaging. I'm fine with "you have to complete the quest once first", but I find that most days now I'll just run Druid's Deep arc, maybe DDtW, teleport over to Kundarak for Jungle of Khyber, then I start looking at those Wheloon quests and I'm like "naaah I'll just log off".

    2. I really like the depth of character advancement that the TR system allows. Other games, you hit a wall with a given character and your only real option is "roll up an alt and try something else". I really like that you can really invest in one hero in DDO and continue to have new things to work towards.

    That being said, I really don't like how the TR system is *not* monotonic with gear. By that, I mean you invest time to earn and upgrade your gear, but then when you TR, it becomes useless until you level back up to it. And, in most cases, there aren't comparable gear options available at all levels, which makes for very punctuated advancement, rather than feeling like a smooth progression through sequential lives. Especially in the Epic levels, where the line is blurred a lot between 20 and cap already due to no level restrictions on quests and preserving EDs. Also, again a change from my previous stance, I think its counterintuitive and deleterious to the game that you have to run in a destiny you don't want, to earn enough karma for the EPL you do want. I think if the whole TR experience were streamlined and monotonized a bit more, it'd make it a lot more engaging, and it'd feel like you continued to move forward to a new level, rather than moving backwards and then earning your way back.

    3. I really wish there was a global in-game general chat...there's a whole social aspect of the game that's being left out with the lack of that feature, and I've noticed it especially coming back now and wanting to ask little general questions about things that may have changed.

    4. Its a little frustrating that TPs are tied to favor, which is only earnable if you keep going back through Heroic. I know they're free and no one can really complain, that's what I always used to say, but coming now from a game where you can buy just about anything with a currency that you earn in all modes of gameplay, it makes me think how much more excited I'd be to play DDO if I was always working towards another 25 TP reward for my next pack or premium class/tree. Even if there was just a "favor reset" you could buy for 4200 Commendations at L20+ or something that let you play through another set of quests for favor without having to play back through all the Heroic levels again (and deal with all the things I mentioned above), that'd be something to do.

    Anyway I'm sure I'll get a lot of flak for this because I probably would have given myself a lot of flak before I left too, but that's my point of view right now, and I'm sure its one shared by other returning vets, as well as some new players too I'm sure.
    Last edited by droid327; 06-27-2015 at 09:16 PM.

  2. #2
    Community Member Lemdog's Avatar
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    First and foremost : Welcome back!

    But for your proposals, i agree with all of them for the most part. It would be nice to have a global chat or easy teleportation. You can already actually get global chat by opening a channel. And for Ebberon to ES, i recommend Key to the City - Eveningstar. It's , i think a 30 min CD? And from ES to Ebberon you can use teleport. That problem may be solved.

    Your proposal for favor rewards is an interesting one. I have a guildie that is done with all his heroic PLs. x3 in all heroic past lifes he still does heroic past lifes for the favor and TP. Going for 5,000 favor from 0 is a total of 1,250 TP. Not too shabby if you have a bunch of spare time.

    The TP favor rewards math is assuming is 25 TP per 100 favor and only that. You can get more than 1,250 TP if it's your first time getting to 5,000 from 0 on that server. Waaay more.

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    Last edited by Lemdog; 06-27-2015 at 09:51 PM.
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  3. #3
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    Yeah I have a Key, obviously, and enough UMD for (Greater) Teleport scrolls, so I'm covered there. But it doesn't send you to the far reaches of Thunder Peak or Wheloon or the Demonweb or Underdark or Orchard, which is where I'm actually trying to get. Gianthold puts you about as far as I really am willing to go for casual gameplay, from experience, and even then its kind of a long slog to PotP...

    The current setup for the TP grind really turns it into two games...there's endgame, where you get access to all the cool stuff like EDs and most of the cool gear and EPLs and most of the new content and "full speed" gameplay where your character is "done". And then there's heroic, which you're not allowed to ever graduate from if you want to keep earning TP, so you have a hero who's locked in that Groundhogs Day forever to feed your main. Its never good to require people to stop playing the game so they can start playing the game. Its always preferable to set it up so you earn your rewards through actual gameplay, doing what you like doing. You can have grinds *within* that context, but you shouldn't have to go completely out of that context for a standalone grind on a standalone grinding character (unless its an optional one, like the initial all-server TP grind).

  4. #4
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    first: Welcome B a c k!

    2nd - only thing that matter is 'are you having fun?'

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  5. #5
    Community Member LongshotBro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    I think its counterintuitive and deleterious to the game that you have to run in a destiny you don't want, to earn enough karma for the EPL you do want.
    i'm not 100% certain of this, but i think you still earn karma even in a capped destiny. So, you don't have to run in an off-destiny to earn the karma, unless you want to continue gaining something along the way (points to spend in off-tree).
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  6. #6
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    1. Wheloon takes no longer than most quests in a wilderness. theres only a handful of quests I can think of that take more than 5 minutes to run there like Stormhorns and CoF. once you know where the quests are, its not that long and teleporters have been getting added. immersion has slowly deteriorated from the game driving away the fun and adventure of D&D. we have had increased public run speed with ship buffs and VIP perk. I would rather see more open world with less load screens than to find ways to have quests outside ship doors.

    2. I agree sort of. it is great that there will always be something new for our characters to chase, explore and challenge but level 30 is coming and that will be the wall. raiding and end game content was a big focus pre-MOTU with little incentive to TR. now its backwards. im hoping there will be more meaning to all this and there can be both.

    if the devs could create a way to not have fun in DDO, going with an ED system for twists, extra twist slots and past lives was the best idea they could come up with. epic character leveling would have been much better and make more sense.

    3. MP was usually the best place for chatting with people always trading and asking for advice. since P2WAH came about and Eveningstar, its all but died.

    4. I don't see anything wrong with earning TP through favor for free. its good that you can earn TP as you level a character and put that towards something you want to buy from the store or have to work for what you want for free. its a way for Turbine to make some money while also a way to earn something in game for free.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongshotBro View Post
    i'm not 100% certain of this, but i think you still earn karma even in a capped destiny. So, you don't have to run in an off-destiny to earn the karma, unless you want to continue gaining something along the way (points to spend in off-tree).
    Has that changed, or am I misremembering or something? I thought you had to spend Primal Karma to get a Primal EPL. I'm grinding out for the Doubleshot PL in Primal, even though I much rather would run in Dreadnaught or Crusader for my repeater arti...

    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    1. Wheloon takes no longer than most quests in a wilderness. theres only a handful of quests I can think of that take more than 5 minutes to run there like Stormhorns and CoF. once you know where the quests are, its not that long and teleporters have been getting added. immersion has slowly deteriorated from the game driving away the fun and adventure of D&D. we have had increased public run speed with ship buffs and VIP perk. I would rather see more open world with less load screens than to find ways to have quests outside ship doors.
    5 minutes is more than half the time it takes to COMPLETE a lot of quests...Wheloon isn't as bad as Stormhorns, no, but it doesn't really matter how long it is if its longer than you're willing to go for a mission at that moment. Teleporters are always good (as long as they don't cost shards), but the new teleport options I've seen so far seem to be pretty conservative, so if that's the trend in level design I'm not too hopeful that will ameliorate much of the time sink.

    I actually like open world content too, but the reward:time ratio for it is just soooo poor compared to doing instanced quests. If you could earn comparable XP/min and drops in Adventure Zones (even if its just comparable to Normal mode, which is about as challenging), then I wouldn't complain about the time it takes to get to a quest entrance, because that's not "wasted" time anymore. In fact I'd probably just tool around the open world stuff more than I actually hit quests.

  8. #8
    Community Member relenttless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongshotBro View Post
    i'm not 100% certain of this, but i think you still earn karma even in a capped destiny. So, you don't have to run in an off-destiny to earn the karma, unless you want to continue gaining something along the way (points to spend in off-tree).
    This is a little confusing.
    yes, you can earn karma in a capped destiny, but only for its own sphere. It was ever thus.

    What I think the Op is suggesting is the possibility of gaining karma for a sphere by running in a destiny from an alternative sphere, which you currently cannot do.
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  9. #9
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    I totally agree with the running around thing it does get very boring after awhile. Teleporters in wilderness area's are just fantastic and I'm happy with the do quest once first. or like the stormhorns find a teleport place. They just need to one in the 'sands' please.
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  10. #10
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    1. There has to be a balane between being able to just tp to the entrance of a quest and having to run all the way to get there. When it comes to slayer areas I really liked the way it was done in storm horns and gianthold. Not that you can pay to get to the place that you want. But having waypoints in the area that can be unlocked is nice.
    For traveling in public areas there should be a way to get to every quest in a short time and it should not be something you have to pay for imo. I don't want to just be able to tp to every quest entrance but especially when you have to wait for people who joined late in a raid it's really annoying.

    2. Does that mean you would like an item system like the challenge rewards across everything? min lvl for items make sense, because you don't want to have everything available from the start.

    I also found it very annoying that you have to run all the different destinies that you may or may not like in order to get epic completionist. But then I realized that it's the same way in heroics. You can't just play one class every live, you have to play all of them.

    3. Having user channels is enough to me so a global chat isn't necessary. It also means that I can choose who I want to talk to which is nice.

    4. Totally agree that there should be a way for players who want to stay at the cap to get free tp. Having the tr system as an option is nice, but I don't want to be forced to keep tring.

  11. #11
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    Ya know whats more boring than walking to a quest? Picking a quest off a list and appearing in it.

  12. #12
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    5 minutes is more than half the time it takes to COMPLETE a lot of quests...Wheloon isn't as bad as Stormhorns, no, but it doesn't really matter how long it is if its longer than you're willing to go for a mission at that moment. Teleporters are always good (as long as they don't cost shards), but the new teleport options I've seen so far seem to be pretty conservative, so if that's the trend in level design I'm not too hopeful that will ameliorate much of the time sink.

    I actually like open world content too, but the reward:time ratio for it is just soooo poor compared to doing instanced quests. If you could earn comparable XP/min and drops in Adventure Zones (even if its just comparable to Normal mode, which is about as challenging), then I wouldn't complain about the time it takes to get to a quest entrance, because that's not "wasted" time anymore. In fact I'd probably just tool around the open world stuff more than I actually hit quests.
    yeah sorry, I cant feel bad if 5 minutes is too long of a run. it is what started the AS teleporters. than that started the griping it costs AS to teleport to a quest you haven't even made the time to run to. I don't mind some quick quests, but theres a lot more reasons why it can take so little time to complete a lot of quests that have to do with quest design, invisibility, cheesing, power creep and gripes that people cant spend more than 20 minutes in a quest.

    in order to have comparable xp/min in an open world, we would need more Wheloon, epic Orchard and I hear TF area is really good xp where mobs are every 5 feet and easy outside the door spider farming. I personally am not a fan with Wilderness zones and think it could stand for some improvements. what I was actually saying was removing the load screens that connect to the Harbor, the Houses, etc.
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  13. #13
    Sovereign Vorpal Halfling of Supreme Good scipiojedi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davmuzl View Post
    1. There has to be a balane between being able to just tp to the entrance of a quest and having to run all the way to get there. When it comes to slayer areas I really liked the way it was done in storm horns and gianthold. Not that you can pay to get to the place that you want. But having waypoints in the area that can be unlocked is nice.
    For traveling in public areas there should be a way to get to every quest in a short time and it should not be something you have to pay for imo. I don't want to just be able to tp to every quest entrance but especially when you have to wait for people who joined late in a raid it's really annoying.
    My latest kick has been running to the quest BEFORE I hit the lfm. That way the party doesn't have to wait for me to get there, since I find that disrespectful, having people wait on you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scipiojedi View Post
    My latest kick has been running to the quest BEFORE I hit the lfm. That way the party doesn't have to wait for me to get there, since I find that disrespectful, having people wait on you.
    I mean it's nice if you do that but it shouldn't be what's happening.
    As long as you don't start doing some inventory management or checking out the AH (no idea what people are actually doing when others are waiting 5 minutes) it's fine imo. It's also fine if you have to do something irl as long as you communicate.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by davmuzl View Post
    2. Does that mean you would like an item system like the challenge rewards across everything? min lvl for items make sense, because you don't want to have everything available from the start.

    I also found it very annoying that you have to run all the different destinies that you may or may not like in order to get epic completionist. But then I realized that it's the same way in heroics. You can't just play one class every live, you have to play all of them.
    Not sure exactly what form that should take...I guess ideally, when you TR, all your current items become min level 1/20, btc, or something, so you can just use them from the get-go - but from what I know about the itemization system, that's impossible.

    An upgrade system wouldn't be bad, but again I'd like to see it designed so it doesn't increase mlvl. Once you acquire the upgrade, it should be yours to use in perpetuity. And that'd require, I imagine, a complete overhaul of itemization that's probably also impossible. Its really just that mlvl that's an impediment for TRing. I get, obviously, why you cant use your L28 Epic gear at L1 when you TR, but I wish there was more of a soft-gate than a hard mlvl gate; that's why I suggested you could equip gear when under-leveled, but with a penalty that scaled based on how under-level you are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech View Post
    Ya know whats more boring than walking to a quest? Picking a quest off a list and appearing in it.
    Ever tried it? I was in the same camp as you before, but then once I *did* have all the quests just waiting at the waypoint for me, I found myself always staying in game for "one more quest, one more quest"...cf to DDO now where I finish, get my reward, look at a couple other quests and think "no I do not feel like trucking out there, I'm just gonna log". Anything that makes people want to stay and keep playing is good for the game, and vice versa.

    Immersion is one factor to consider, and the lore is what sets DDO above generic original S&S fantasy MMOs, but so is engagement. DDO is ultimately a game, not a movie, so you have to strike a balance between story/lore and dynamic/compelling game design. That's why I was suggesting a "have to walk out the first time" compromise; after you know the way, you're not really paying attention anyway, and it just becomes a penalty/timesink rather than immersion.

    Plus, *is* it really that different from the original P&P experience? You never sit around a table and wait for 5 mins while your DM goes "you're walking to the dungeon....still walking to the dungeon...yep, nice scenery on the way to this dungeon....*roll d20, check the charts* it starts to lightly drizzle while you're walking to this dungeon". No, you say "ok we head to the dungeon", and then DM goes "OK you arrive at the dungeon, what do you do?"
    Last edited by droid327; 06-28-2015 at 10:57 AM.

  16. #16
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    Firstly, welcome back!

    1. This is one of the quickest to navigate MMOs already, I don't think we need to make it even quicker. If 5 minutes seems so long that you would rather not bother because the quest is probably already finished when you get there that's a problem with game design elsewhere, not in the travel system. I wish we had more and larger explorer areas personally, I like the exploration aspect.

    2. I don't understand how making the game more monotonic will be more engaging? That sounds incredibly boring. I agree the destiny system is all kinds of screwed up in many ways though. Moving more of the power to base epic lvls is something they were considering but people complained so it was put on the back-burner unfortunately. I hope they do revamp the destiny system before lvl 30 comes or it will just get worse.

    3. I avoid most chatter outside group so I have no opinion here.

    4. Not sure how they could address this, it's already very easy for people to earn free TP's burning through lives every few days. If we want the game to stay afloat I don't think more free TP's will help.

  17. #17
    Community Member IronClan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    1. Movement is still the biggest thing that drives me to log out. Its better now with some expanded teleport options

    2. That being said, I really don't like how the TR system is *not* monotonic with gear. By that, I mean you invest time to earn and upgrade your gear, but then when you TR, it becomes useless until you level back up to it. And, in most cases, there aren't comparable gear options available at all levels, which makes for very punctuated advancement

    3. I really wish there was a global in-game general chat...there's a whole social aspect of the game that's being left out with the lack of that feature, and I've noticed it especially coming back now and wanting to ask little general questions about things that may have changed.

    4. Its a little frustrating that TPs are tied to favor, which is only earnable if you keep going back through Heroic. I know they're free and no one can really complain, that's what I always used to say, but coming now from a game where you can buy just about anything with a currency that you earn in all modes of gameplay, it makes me think how much more excited I'd be to play DDO if I was always working towards another 25 TP reward for my next pack or premium class/tree. Even if there was just a "favor reset" you could buy for 4200 Commendations at L20+ or something that let you play through another set of quests for favor without having to play back through all the Heroic levels again (and deal with all the things I mentioned above), that'd be something to do.
    I agree with a lot of your thoughts, the unfortunate thing is most of them have been brought up many times but have not really been acted on by the Dev's.

    1. teleport to quest entrance on the LFM system would make things so much easier for new players, they even partially implemented it and once in a blue moon you see the error msg left over from their failed attempt.

    In my experience DDO is largly filled with players who play it like you would an FPS shooter (even if they don't realize they're doing that) you browse the LFMs like you would a server browser, and choose the one that's running what you feel like... DDO just doesn't have the immersiveness and depth to have conceits like required traveling between places, it also doesn't have things like mounts that make the conceit tolerable (Mounts give the conceit of overland travel a justification even if it is circular it gives people enough of a fun carrot to make the intentional tedium worth dealing with)

    2. this was brought up multiple times on the PC, the lack of ways to upgrade or continue or progress with loot leads to many problems, the one you mention (suddenly you have to switch weapon types or combat styles or the thing you want to do with your character is far less effective than some lowest common denominator thing like equipping a Carnifex on a caster instead of casting)

    And that's a great example: it's well known that most casters use a Carnifex in early levels, because casting isn't really worth bothering with. Its also not uncommon to be specced for one TYPE of weapon and then only use your builds intended weapon when you're higher level (Greensteel greataxe then TF Maul when you get Legendary Dreadnaught and get Pulverizer for one example).

    These are both problems with DDO's itemization AND problems with the Developers vision and the fact that the Loot Dev changes every few months and the management does not task the new loot dev with completing the changes or maintaining any consistency with the previous loot Dev.

    It's the reason we have BTC random gen items, BTA named items, Shard/Seal/Scroll items, Stone of Change rituals, Cannith crafting, EN EH EE items, GS crafting, BtcoE items, TF crafting, Challenge crafting, a dozen different upgrade mechanics, ToEE crafting which is actually only an upgrade mechanic but they called it crafting... proving that they don't even have a firm grasp on where they're going. It's the reason why one month they state that they will no longer put expanded crit ranges on weapons, because they're going to put the expanded crit profiles in the enhancement trees, then 4 months later they release Bloom, Spinal Tap, Spiked Club, a Bow etc. with expanded crit profiles...

    They have no strong design direction.

    3. I have no idea how they've gone this long with the main communication feature so unusably fractured between houses and areas. It's been mentioned many times but it seems to be one of those things the Dev's are inexplicably tone def about.

    Still it's a good game and despite the problems and the things they are tone deaf to I will keep playing.
    Last edited by IronClan; 06-28-2015 at 12:44 PM. Reason: doh went off on a tangent

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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    then I start looking at those Wheloon quests and I'm like "naaah I'll just log off".
    IIRC they've added some basic teleportation possibilities in FR Hall of Heroes. Check it out. And in Wheloon you have two free teleport spots. It's not that bad.

  19. #19
    2015 DDO Players Council Sebastrd's Avatar
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    Perhaps the way to fix the long run out to quests is not to eliminate the run, but to make it actually matter.

    One obvious way is to take the run into account when assigning base quest XP; however that just makes it worth it, not less annoying.

    I'm not sure how to fix it, honestly. The run needs to be dangerous enough that it's threatening; and it needs to be rewarding enough to be worth the effort, but not so rewarding as to replace the quest

    I think part of the problem is that there's no rhyme or reason to which quests have a long run and which don't. Consider the best XP per minute quests like VoN 3, Wiz King, VoN 5, Spies in the House, Impossible Demands, etc. The VoNs and Spies are in public areas, while Wiz King and ID are the closest quests to the entrance in their respective zones. Even What Goes Up, while technically the furthest quest in it's area, is pretty close to the teleport and easy to get to. For some reason, it's often the longest or most annoying or most difficult quest in an area that's the farthest away (Chains of Flame, House of Broken Chains, Belly of the Beast, Lost Thread, Schemes of the Enemy).

    Perhaps quest XP and loot should take the run into account. In other words, the furthest quest should have the best XP per minute, the most chests, and the best named loot.

    It would also be nice if slayer areas weren't so disconnected from the quest storylines. Perhaps some actions in the explorer zones and rares killed should have an effect on how things play out inside the quests themselves and on what loot will or won't appear.

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  20. #20
    Community Member relenttless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scipiojedi View Post
    My latest kick has been running to the quest BEFORE I hit the lfm. That way the party doesn't have to wait for me to get there, since I find that disrespectful, having people wait on you.
    I do that more and more for the same reasons, there is a bit of a hangover from an earlier time however. Once upon a time, an lfm came up, and it filled in seconds, so you hit the lfm as soon as you saw it, then schelped off to the quest. Otherwise you wouldn't get in.
    This is not so much of a problem these days, so its much easier to get buffed, hit the navigator, and you will still
    get a spot in the group.
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    "Some are insane, and the're in charge"
    (GoF)

    Sarlona: Mercilless, Maliciouss, Relenttless. Plus others.....

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