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  1. #1
    Community Member Robai's Avatar
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    Default Please explain Evasive Dance



    I guess it improves non-Improved evasion from taking FULL damage on FAILED save to 85% dmg.

    It looks like there are two bugs:
    1) words 'half damage' should be replaced with 'full'
    2) words 'on a successful save' should be removed

    Anyway, if it's not a bug then it's very confusing.

  2. #2
    The Hatchery
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    Bad wording.

    However, if you don't have evasion and fail the reflex save, you take half damage.

    Better wording would be "Improves your evasion so that, on a failed save, you only take 85% of the damage."

  3. #3
    Community Member Avenging_Angel's Avatar
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    I think it refers to abilities that deal damage and that damage is halved by a Reflex save.

    Take Fireball. Fireball is an attack that normally deals half damage with a successful Reflex save (so it fits the description). If you have Evasion+Evasive Dance and fail the Reflex save, you take 85% damage instead of 100%.

    Wording may have been better but what do I know, English is not my first language.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    Bad wording.

    However, if you don't have evasion and fail the reflex save, you take half damage.

    Better wording would be "Improves your evasion so that, on a failed save, you only take 85% of the damage."
    Pretty much this, bad wording.

    It is possible that they worded this awkwardly on purpose, though, as there are some spells that are a Reflex save for no damage even without Evasion, like Niac's Cold Ray, and it might be that this ability doesn't work on those... for whatever reason.

  5. #5
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRobai View Post


    I guess it improves non-Improved evasion from taking FULL damage on FAILED save to 85% dmg.

    It looks like there are two bugs:
    1) words 'half damage' should be replaced with 'full'
    2) words 'on a successful save' should be removed

    Anyway, if it's not a bug then it's very confusing.
    Do you have Evasion, But not Improved Evasion?

    With this enhancement, you'll Save for half damage but fail for [85%/75%/50%] damage.


    Pass or Fail, at Rank 3 you're taking 50% damage from damage with a reflex check.
    Last edited by Systern; 08-19-2013 at 11:35 PM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Systern View Post
    Do you have Evasion, But not Improved Evasion?

    With this enhancement, you'll Save for half damage but fail for [85%/75%/50%] damage.


    Pass or Fail, at Rank 3 you're taking 50% damage from damage with a reflex check.
    But only if a successful reflex save would result in 50% damage.
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  7. #7
    Community Member Daine's Avatar
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    Evasion: If you make a successful Reflex saving throw against an effect that normally deals half damage on a successful save, you instead take no damage.

    No Evasion:

    Make your save on Lightning bolt, fireball ,etc take 50% damage
    Fail your save on lightning bolt, fireball, etc take 100% damage

    Evasion:

    Make your save on Lightning bolt, fireball ,etc take 0% damage
    Fail your save on lightning bolt, fireball, etc take 100% damage

    Evasion + Evasive Dance:

    Make your save on Lightning bolt, fireball ,etc take 0% damage
    Fail your save on lightning bolt, fireball, etc take 85% of full damage

  8. #8
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    Maybe better if worded like this?

    Improves your Evasion ability so that, against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful Reflex save, you only take 85% damage on a failed Reflex save.

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  9. #9
    Community Member Philibusta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    Bad wording.

    However, if you don't have evasion and fail the reflex save, you take half damage.

    Better wording would be "Improves your evasion so that, on a failed save, you only take 85% of the damage."
    ALMOST.

    Normally, whether or not you have Evasion and you fail a Reflex save you take FULL damage, not half.

    If you have the Evasion feat, and you MAKE your Reflex save, you take NO damage (vs taking half damage on a successful save WITHOUT Evasion).

    If you have Evasion (Feat) and "Evasive Dance" (Enhancement), and you get hit with a spell that normally causes FULL damage on a FAILED save, your "Evasive Dance" Enhancement lets you instead only take 85% damage if you fail. If you MAKE the save, your Evasion (Feat) kicks in and you take NO damage.
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  10. #10
    Community Member Dreppo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philibusta View Post
    ALMOST.

    Normally, whether or not you have Evasion and you fail a Reflex save you take FULL damage, not half.

    If you have the Evasion feat, and you MAKE your Reflex save, you take NO damage (vs taking half damage on a successful save WITHOUT Evasion).

    If you have Evasion (Feat) and "Evasive Dance" (Enhancement), and you get hit with a spell that normally causes FULL damage on a FAILED save, your "Evasive Dance" Enhancement lets you instead only take 85% damage if you fail. If you MAKE the save, your Evasion (Feat) kicks in and you take NO damage.
    You're clouding the issue. Look at the enhancement again -- it has Evasion as a prerequisite. Therefore, you will always have Evasion. Think of this enhancement as improving Evasion so that after 3 ranks, you have the equivalent of Improved Evasion. Of course you can stop at less than 3 ranks and have something better than Evasion but not as good as Improved Evasion.

  11. #11
    Community Member Philibusta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreppo View Post
    You're clouding the issue. Look at the enhancement again -- it has Evasion as a prerequisite. Therefore, you will always have Evasion. Think of this enhancement as improving Evasion so that after 3 ranks, you have the equivalent of Improved Evasion. Of course you can stop at less than 3 ranks and have something better than Evasion but not as good as Improved Evasion.
    Dont see how I was clouding anything - I explained how each combination of (nothing) and (having Evasion) and (Having Evasion AND Evasive Dance) works with a failed or successful save. The only part I didn't explain was how you can put more points into the Dance to get more of a "take lesss damage on a failed save" bonus, like what you said about Improved Evasion. Of course, I figured that the "x/3" on the Enhancement itself would have led to that conclusion anyway, so I felt no need to explain it.
    Last edited by Philibusta; 08-20-2013 at 01:51 AM.
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  12. #12
    Community Member Dagolar's Avatar
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    For (all spells that are of type x, where type x are ones that can be reduced to half damage on a SUCCESSFUL save (in other words, ones to which Evasion abilities can apply)) damage on a FAILED save is reduced.

    The wording is fine, note the bolded words above and reread the initial description~

    The structure of the wording could be improved for more immediate comprehension, however.

    -----

    Spells which reduce to 50% on a successful save:


    Pre-Evasion:
    Save Fail: 100% damage
    Save Success: 50% damage

    With Evasion:
    Save Fail 100%
    Save Success: 0% damage

    With Evasive Dance 1:
    Save Fail: 85%
    Save Success: 0%

    ..

    With Evasion/ Evasive Dance 3:
    Save Fail: 50%
    Save Success: 0%


    ---

    Ray spells are an example of damage spells which are not reduced by 50% on successful save- namely since they don't usually give saves.

    Disintegrate reduces damage on a successful save, but not by half, and isn't evadable (nevermind it being a fortitude save, not a reflex save; the concept applies to any similarly structured reflex-based spells. Not that any immediately come to mind~).

    Essentially, all they need to do is swap 'spells reduced by 50% on a successful save' with 'spells which can be evaded'.
    Last edited by Dagolar; 08-20-2013 at 03:08 AM.
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  13. #13
    Community Member Robai's Avatar
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    Thanks for answers.

    So I was right, the text is obviously bugged.

  14. #14
    Community Member Daine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRobai View Post
    Thanks for answers.

    So I was right, the text is obviously bugged.
    No, the text is not bugged, it is correct.

    If you are confused about the effect check out the DDO wiki for evocation spells and see how many have the following effect: "Saving Throw: Reflex save takes half damage", try clicking through on Fireball and Lightning Bolt for starters.

    Then have a look at Frost Lance: "Saving Throw: Fortitude save takes half damage".

    Then try Polar Ray: "Saving Throw:None"

    As someone who plays a Sorceror, knowing what the saves are of my spells helps me know what spell to cast. There are plenty of Water Savant Sorcs that just spam Polar Ray, it's reasonably effective, but take a high fortitude boss in some tough content and you need to change up your repertoire.

    For melee toons, knowing your mobs DR's is critical, for spell casters, knowing your own spells saving throws and spell resistance qualities PLUS your mobs saves, spell resistance, AND elemental resistances is just as critical.

    Even if you don't play a single spell caster, going through the list may just show you it's not all about reflex save when it comes to staying alive.

    http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Evocation_spells

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    Maybe better if worded like this?

    Improves your Evasion ability so that, against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful Reflex save, you only take 85% damage on a failed Reflex save.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRobai View Post
    Thanks for answers.

    So I was right, the text is obviously bugged.
    Text is not bugged, but it could have been structured better for clarity.
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  16. #16
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Is this related to the Safety Dance?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7hHx7gdN68

  17. #17
    Community Member Robai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daine View Post
    No, the text is not bugged, it is correct.
    ....
    Then have a look at Frost Lance: "Saving Throw: Fortitude save takes half damage".
    Then try Polar Ray: "Saving Throw:None"
    ...
    Most spells have a saving throw.
    For, example, Fireball has reflex saving throw.
    If you have high reflex (or attacker's spell has low DC) then it's most likely that you'll save against that Fireball, which results in 50% dmg instead of 100% dmg.

    But if you have Evasion feat then you get 0% dmg on a successful saving throw and 100% dmg otherwise.

    It's logical to assume that Evasive Dance does this:
    - you get 85% dmg instead of 100% on a failed saving throw (Evasion feat probably doesn't matter here, but Evasion is one of the requirements there anyway)
    - if you put two more points there then you get 50% dmg instead of 100% on a failed saving throw (i.e. your Evasion becomes the same as Improved Evasion, at least for spells that do half dmg on a successful saving throw).

    But that doesn't mean that the wording is good in the screenshot.
    Last edited by TheRobai; 08-20-2013 at 05:34 PM. Reason: Replaced Frost Lance/fotitude with Fireball/reflex

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRobai View Post
    Most spells have a saving throw.
    For, example, Frost Lance has fortitude saving throw.
    If you have high fortitude (or attacker's spell has low DC) then it's most likely that you'll save against that Frost Lance, which results in 50% dmg instead of 100% dmg.

    But if you have Evasion feat then you get 0% dmg on a successful saving throw and 100% dmg otherwise.

    It's logical to assume that Evasive Dance does this:
    - you get 85% dmg instead of 100% on a failed saving throw (Evasion feat probably doesn't matter here, but Evasion is one of the requirements there anyway)
    - if you put two more points there then you get 50% dmg instead of 100% on a failed saving throw (i.e. your Evasion becomes the same as Improved Evasion, at least for spells that do half dmg on a successful saving throw).

    But that doesn't mean that the wording is good in the screenshot.
    Evasion relates to Reflex saves.
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  19. #19

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    The wording is correct but confusing. Think of it like this: (Quoting the in-game text in its entirety.)

    Improves your evasion so that on a failed Reflex saving throw (against an attack that normally does half damage on a successful save,) you only take 85% damage.

    I think the parentheses add clarity.

    EDIT: A better description, since evasion is required, would be:

    Improves your evasion so that on a failed Reflex saving throw against an evadable attack you only take 85% damage.

  20. #20
    Community Member Robai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    Evasion relates to Reflex saves.
    Right, thanks.
    Fixed now.

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