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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    the last couple sentences gave me pause. you talk about other possibilities for why it could be harder to find groups than you end it with keeping the game alive with a downside or two. you are saying you are ok with less people playing and harder to find people to play with when there are lots of pay options to bypass many parts of the game? that's something you are willing to accept? I could see you might be ok with it if you primarily solo or run with a static group, but theres a lot of people who look outside of guild/friends and or like to at least group once in awhile.
    I guess "downsides" isn't the way I meant it but more likely the way he did mean it. Honest mistake. My ending also didn't really have correlation with the rest, I was expressing two different points.

    I am willing to accept whatever people chose to be the best way for them to enjoy (or not enjoy) any games.

    I have soloed or pugged for 95% of my DDO "career" so I meant what I said. This "downside" has I called it of LFM being down can still be solved (or at least be much less painful) if you are willing to just post your own LFM. Which is maybe why I (me) don't see it as such a big problem. But that's just a whole different subject and that's just my own point of view on it.
    Kal Vas Flam... Corp Por... Corp Por

    ...And then there was silence

  2. #62
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Roughly half spend a small amount, and a few percentage points, ~2-4% spend ALOT.

    So:

    48-49% very little to no spending
    48-49% moderate spending
    2-4% whales. Wallet elite. Big spenders.
    Unless you are privy to some insider information that you need to divulge for anyone to take you seriously, you are just making numbers up. Are you taking polls of everyone on every server?

    So, who is your source inside Turbine that you can make such claims? Who is showing you sales numbers?

    That's, right, nobody is.

    You can now go back to making things up.


    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  3. #63
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Unless you are privy to some insider information that you need to divulge for anyone to take you seriously, you are just making numbers up. Are you taking polls of everyone on every server?

    So, who is your source inside Turbine that you can make such claims? Who is showing you sales numbers?

    That's, right, nobody is.

    You can now go back to making things up.

    You are wrong. Worked in the industry, understand the numbers quite well, as well as the SG marketing schemes now being used in part and in full by MMO companies.

    You can now go back to assuming no one knows and everything is speculation. It is the entire basis your argument that "everything is just fine, because we are still here" hinges on.

    Last edited by Chai; 09-06-2013 at 02:02 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  4. #64
    Community Member LightBear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post

    And of course the thing I leave unsaid more often than not:
    A terrible elitist community that makes the game very hostile to new players, who don't have great twitch skills or who build flavor or fun factor into their characters.
    You can't blame the community on being elitist as the game design is a spiral towards becoming an elitist, from the core of dnd ruleset all the way through what turbine has added and most possibly beyond that.

    Oh, and I'm one of those guys that gladly pays for a stone and a pot. That's right, I'm both a stoner and a pothead!

    (Goes outside, light one up and wonders why there isn't a White Castle around when you need one...)


    One, two! One, two! and through and through. The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
    He left it dead, and with its head. He went galumphing back.

  5. #65
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    You are wrong. Worked in the industry, understand the numbers quite well, as well as the SG marketing schemes now being used in part and in full by MMO companies.

    You can now go back to assuming no one knows and everything is speculation. It is the entire basis your argument that "everything is just fine, because we are still here" hinges on.

    Ok, so you are making these current numbers up based on some past experience that may or may not have any relevance in the game we play right now.

    So, you're now tell everyone here that you, of all people, KNOW sales numbers for Turbine??!? How have you attained such information? Please share so this can be put to rest.

    And you can go back, or continue to, think you know everything and tell everyone else that they are wrong all the time.

    Fact is, you made these numbers up about DDO because you have no idea what sales numbers are for DDO. To claim otherwise is a lie as only marketing and employees at Turbine know them - are you a Turbine employee? No, you're not. Your speculating at best and at worse making them up to support your own agenda.

    And my 'argument' is that your making **** up still and cannot nor will not face up to it.

    So, I'll ask again, who at Turbine is giving you these numbers that you claim are so factual?

    Who is your source?

    We will all wait but not hold our breath....

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  6. #66
    Community Member gaffneyks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    No one is disadvantaged due to having less time to play. This is not a progression raiding game where you absolutely have to have t4 ger to raid t5 raids. The difference between someone who has more time -vs- less time is more alts equipped in the same end game gear. What does one need more alts for with less time to play?

    So you think that people get bored with the game LESS OFTEN after they bought their entire way through the game and now theres nothing left for them to acquire XP or loot wise? Its the exact opposite, and this is supported by factual information. When these facts are brought, like the log on data or the population data from MMO tracking sites, those who attempt to disagree move to dismiss and demonize said facts as quickly as possible. The only reason to dismiss, demonize or reject out of hand, is due to lack of refutation of what you are attempting to disagree with. If you want to reject and not accept facts simply because they dont support the stance youre taking, thats one thing, but claiming those facts dont exist is incorrect nonetheless.

    Now lets see your supporting evidence that more people continue to play because they have the privilage of buying their way through the game. A few months from now, the LFMs will be vibrant and thriving? The log on data is going to increase? The mmo population tracking sites are going to report untold increases in DDOs population, all because people were able to pay to circumvent all inconvenience mechanisms and acquire what they wanted within a month of the release of the expansion? Hey farvah, whats that place we go to with the cheeze sticks and the stuff all over the walls? Shenanigans.

    OMG....lol....

    That is the most hilarious thing I have ever read.

    What correlation does log on Data and Pay to win have? Any? The only fact is the log on data shows less people logging on, it is your opinion that p2w causes less logins.

    Thanks for the laughs though. Actually people have not been logging on to DDO lately because they are worried about the crisis in the Middle East. It is a fact. I am telling you. It is factual, if you question me see the supporting evidence..................on cnn....

    The anti p2w crowd is complaining about the stupid daily dice roll.....too funny...... I love this game!

  7. #67
    Community Member Singular's Avatar
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    For the record,

    I'm sorry about starting this thread. My mistake. I didn't things through - yes, xp stones, xp pots, etc, outshadow the tiny amount of xp you get from the daily dice.

    I take it back, wasn't thinking.

    Now go win your xp, gentlemen and ladies!

  8. #68
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotMaarl View Post
    did 4000 shards worth of gold rolls yesterday, in one sitting. It yielded me 930K XP. I added it all up.

    the XP cannot be boosted by pots or any other buffs, at least not by the means i tried.

    no, i don't buy shards. so save your breath there.
    Heh, but somebody bought those shards, and that's $3000+ Turbine made... The guys who think DDO isn't profitable really make me laugh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  9. #69
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Heh, but somebody bought those shards, and that's $3000+ Turbine made... The guys who think DDO isn't profitable really make me laugh.
    Yay three thousand dollars. We can pay the rent on our office space for a few days.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  10. #70
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    You are wrong. Worked in the industry, understand the numbers quite well
    Ah, past tense, so now you're not under secret NDAs anymore, right? Tell us more of your experience... not that we can verify you're telling the truth... but at least it would be more than "Ooooh, listen to me... I'm an expert on MMO business models, but I can't tell you why, because it's a BIIIIIG secret...."
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  11. #71
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Yay three thousand dollars. We can pay the rent on our office space for a few days.
    Oh, I was wrong... I thought he did 4000 rolls, not 4000 shards of rolls... so not as much money as I thought... Still, Astral Shards are making them a ton of money.

    DDO has already lasted 7.5 years... It will easily last another 1.5 years, probably 2.5 years... A 10-year run as a profitable MMO is a successful business. You don't know as much about the industry as you claim if you don't think DDO is a successful business.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  12. #72
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    It's interesting that we both agree on the conclusion, but we don't agree on the cause.

    The thing I see when I read someone blaming "P2W" XP stones and AH loot for attrition, is that those people are ignoring that people also leave games when they are frustrated, hit a wall, can't get the item they want so they can move on to a new quest.

    I think it's just as likely that the game losses -- as many if not possibly more -- players due to factors like: "I didn't hit the lottery tonight in my 20th run of Abbot and it took me a year to get that many runs while my Guildies who play all night and all day with no jobs all have multiple items from it and don't want to run it any more, Gee I wish there were raid bypass timers so I could knock this out in one weekend and get it over with" as well as "I am on my 8th life and I can not STAND playing this Barb life so I'm going to find another game, sure wish I could get most of the levels over with by buying a store item, so I could get back to the fun classes I like"
    and how about the (possibly endemic in an almost totally adult played game): "I only have 1 and a half hours a night to play and I can't make enough progress with this character to enjoy a sense of progression and I can't keep up with my TR/Raiding buddies in my guild, I sure which there was a 50% XP pot in the store".

    Frankly I suspect the game attrits as many or more players from these types of things as it does "I've bought my Dragon helm, and 20 flawless scales off the AH for shards, and made them into Armor, and I've farmed all my ED's using a Tome of Fate and a Epic learning tome and 50% pots, I'm bored now, I wonder what Guild Wars is like"
    This... I think "P2W" keeps more players than it loses. Allows those of us with less time to advance easier... I've been here 7 years and I still have plenty to do. It's the power-gamers that have almost everything already that end up quitting because of P2W. Turbine can't keep up with the hard-core powergamers anyway... Get them to spend $50 and take a break after a month is better than having them grind everything out in 3 months for free and take a break. And Turbine makes a ton of money. The other way, they don't make anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  13. #73
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    This... I think "P2W" keeps more players than it loses. Allows those of us with less time to advance easier... I've been here 7 years and I still have plenty to do. It's the power-gamers that have almost everything already that end up quitting because of P2W. Turbine can't keep up with the hard-core powergamers anyway... Get them to spend $50 and take a break after a month is better than having them grind everything out in 3 months for free and take a break. And Turbine makes a ton of money. The other way, they don't make anything.
    Somebody has to run to stuff for it to be sold on the ASAH. Somebody has to do the grinding.

    Do you see that happening right now? Do you see anybody bothering to do that?

  14. #74
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Ah, past tense, so now you're not under secret NDAs anymore, right? Tell us more of your experience... not that we can verify you're telling the truth... but at least it would be more than "Ooooh, listen to me... I'm an expert on MMO business models, but I can't tell you why, because it's a BIIIIIG secret...."
    Yeah, because its soo totally worth using internal company information to prove the blind defense wrong on an internet forum.

    Not.

    Its hilarious how you and others will dismiss peoples knowledge and experience with absolutely no understanding of what the poersons history or field of expertise is, but then turn around and tell us that because no one has inside information they cannot make claims, which is a literal direct contradiction.
    Last edited by Chai; 09-11-2013 at 10:56 AM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  15. #75
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Somebody has to run to stuff for it to be sold on the ASAH. Somebody has to do the grinding.

    Do you see that happening right now? Do you see anybody bothering to do that?
    Exactly.

    P2W eats itself alive, by making the game more boring for those who are the very fuel of the monetization method in the first place.

    The high end gamer channels on the servers I play on are shrinking already again. Peopel came back, got what they wanted out of the expansion, and are attriting back to hiatus. They will likely return for the new raid, next year.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  16. #76
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    This... I think "P2W" keeps more players than it loses. Allows those of us with less time to advance easier... I've been here 7 years and I still have plenty to do. It's the power-gamers that have almost everything already that end up quitting because of P2W. Turbine can't keep up with the hard-core powergamers anyway... Get them to spend $50 and take a break after a month is better than having them grind everything out in 3 months for free and take a break. And Turbine makes a ton of money. The other way, they don't make anything.
    Its the very powergaqmers who you claim end up quitting who do the EE farming of the gear that gets sold on the ASAH. Whose farming that gear right now? I see a few EH and some epic on the ASAH right now. The new EE stuff is very thin.

    Turbine makes more money when people play their game for longer periods of time. When they stay playing, they not only spent up front, but they are still here they can still spend. When they are not here they cant spend, the game looks more dead due to less people, the ASAH is less populated. You think they are making MORE money this way?
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  17. #77
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The high end gamer channels on the servers I play on are shrinking already again. Peopel came back, got what they wanted out of the expansion, and are attriting back to hiatus. They will likely return for the new raid, next year.
    - Got my gloves
    - Got my goggles
    - All the rest of the junk is random

    End-game is deader than dead 3 weeks after the expansion. And with the Pay2Losers don't understand that if we aren't running stuff to pull loot to sell there is nothing for them to buy.

    Turbine needs to keep US power-gamers motivated to play in order to sell stuff on the shard exchange. This just isn't happening right now.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    - Got my gloves
    - Got my goggles
    - All the rest of the junk is random

    End-game is deader than dead 3 weeks after the expansion. And with the Pay2Losers don't understand that if we aren't running stuff to pull loot to sell there is nothing for them to buy.

    Turbine needs to keep US power-gamers motivated to play in order to sell stuff on the shard exchange. This just isn't happening right now.
    Ah but thats you. I for example didnt even bother buying the expansion because I simply felt turbine dropped the ball again with the enhancment pass. Mainly it not being put out at least a month before the expansion as a way to help win back some player interest and faith. THen again as a almos exclusively drow player their complete flub on the drow racial tree being totally borked more or less proved to me yet again why having any faith in turbine is misplaced.

    Id love to run the new stuff, if I could find any reason to think the game wont just throw me down and **** me rather then sweet talk me and love me all night long.

  19. #79
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    - Got my gloves
    - Got my goggles
    - All the rest of the junk is random

    End-game is deader than dead 3 weeks after the expansion. And with the Pay2Losers don't understand that if we aren't running stuff to pull loot to sell there is nothing for them to buy.

    Turbine needs to keep US power-gamers motivated to play in order to sell stuff on the shard exchange. This just isn't happening right now.
    Yep. Im not even a full on powergamer, but when I was defending keeping them around most of those who always disagree with me said its no loss if they find something else. I dont think they realize how important keeping them around is. Many of the guides, maps, and loot locations are documented by them, and the ASAH is filled the most when they are around. People claim that the ASAH is a good thing, then dismiss powergamers as not needed for a healthy game, are directly contradicting themselves.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #80
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    Ah but thats you. I for example didnt even bother buying the expansion because I simply felt turbine dropped the ball again with the enhancment pass. Mainly it not being put out at least a month before the expansion as a way to help win back some player interest and faith. THen again as a almos exclusively drow player their complete flub on the drow racial tree being totally borked more or less proved to me yet again why having any faith in turbine is misplaced.

    I didn't buy it either, got my code off of loot trade.

    Muhahahahahahahahahaha!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    Id love to run the new stuff, if I could find any reason to think the game wont just throw me down and **** me rather then sweet talk me and love me all night long.
    Buy it when it's on sale, they have to have a fire-sale soon.

    the Stormhorns explorer area is friggin sweet and I love THOSE quests. The Wheloon quests are nice, I'm not a fan of the explorer area.

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