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  1. #201
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    You use the wrong definition then, what do you want me tell you. With that, there is nothing to discuss with you.
    It seems that you are not really an academic

  2. #202
    The Hatchery danotmano1998's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    i'm happy that i've bought these items and allowed me to ENJOY the game at my leisure at my pace.
    *Cheers*




    This thread is great!
    *popcorn*
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilldude
    Dude, did you see they way that guy just pressed button 1? It was amazing! A display of skill unseen since the 1984 World Games where in the men's room, between events, a man washed his hands with such unbridled majesty that people were claiming the faucet he used was OP.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    See, once you stand up and own it, you realize it doesnt have this negative connotation others who are attempting to disagree with me insinutate it has.
    if "pay to win" didn't have a negative connotation, we wouldn't ever be having this conversation. this would have never blown up into ... how many pages are we on now? i GAVE UP and said "fine", even tho by the definition on UD (which you aren't using properly) i'm NOT pay to win.



    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    As far as the entire "this is what is needed to keep the lights on" stuff - I dont agree. Note that 8 out of 10 of the most populated MMOs right now, are sub games.
    my understanding was, Turbine was dying when they switched from a sub model to a free-to-play/microtransaction model. microtrans might not keep the lights on at some other game, but right now, it's what does the job for Turbine. who am i to complain. be happy i'm footing YOUR bill and quit complaining about how i do it. THANKS

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  4. #204
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    It seems that you are not really an academic
    My Apologies. I was way to harsh and out of line with you, because I am used to dealing with the frustration that is Chai, and I wrongly took it out on you. Please read my revised post.

  5. #205
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    It's not simply the act of buying something or getting a bit of power, otherwise being able to buy a +1 sword from the Store would be P2W, and its not because there are other, better, items in the game for available for free.

    You are getting bent because "Omg, they get to buy as good an item as I can earn for free"

    Think of how stupid that sounds. "They get to buy as good an item as I can get for free"

    Say that again, just to let it sink it. "They spend money to get what I can get free"

    and you have the audacity to call that P2W?

    Go away troll.
    You are trying to mix up arguing DEGREE to justify the definition of the ABSOLUTE. I am in favor of degree based arguments and my entire stance has always been about the degree of it in the game and the impact that degree has on the game. Sure buying a +1 weapon would technically be p2w, but the degree of it is negligable to the point where i still wonder why Turbine has low end weapons in the store in the first place. The harder it is to achieve in game the more it increases in degree and the more impact it has on the game. +5 tomes are a perfect example of much higher degree of impact. Raid timer bypass is higher yet in degree - having turned a 60 day grind into a 2 day marathon - 1/30th of the time.

    Please refrain from the namecalling. Its not a personal discussion. This is twice now from you. No one is a troll due to disagreeing with your limited definition of the term p2w. Learn how to debate a point without needing to resort to ad hominim to do so.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    be happy i'm footing YOUR bill and quit complaining about how i do it. THANKS
    Here, Here!

  7. #207
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    if "pay to win" didn't have a negative connotation, we wouldn't ever be having this conversation. this would have never blown up into ... how many pages are we on now? i GAVE UP and said "fine", even tho by the definition on UD (which you aren't using properly) i'm NOT pay to win.
    P2w doesnt have a negative connotation. There are games coming out right now that are shameless p2w, and do not hide behind the false pretense of technicalities negating the definition.


    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    my understanding was, Turbine was dying when they switched from a sub model to a free-to-play/microtransaction model. microtrans might not keep the lights on at some other game, but right now, it's what does the job for Turbine. who am i to complain. be happy i'm footing YOUR bill and quit complaining about how i do it. THANKS
    The game was dying because ATARI was not marketing it, and still holding the license.

    You arent footing my bill. Ive been a paying customer for 7 years.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  8. #208
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    It is P2W, too. You need considerably less effort to buy this item from the store than to grind it yourself. Whether or not the item is desirable does not matter. P2W is just what it is, you pay to have to spend less effort and achieve your goals quicker. I'm not talking about whether P2W is good or bad, just the notion of P2W.
    I am sorry, and I don't mean this be rude, in fact, I am quite happy with your candor to be upfront about what you think P2W is and what it means. Total respect in that venture.

    Had this been the case with some other posters with a willingness to be upfront of what they think something means, these kinds of discussions would not exist, In fact, the point that you made it clear what you think P2W is, "being any means to pay to get an objective faster", makes it far easier to have a discussion with you about this. While we will never agree on what P2W means, because, I am an old school gamer, and not to say "get off my lawn" but I played the games that brought about the rise of terms like P2W, and I know what they were like, and what that term means, entals, and the in game stigma attached to it. In a strange way, I am a little taken aback by how waterdown it has become, and thus making it really not a term of discussion or consideration if all you feel it means is "Paying to get to an objective faster" because that means, I can still play the game and enjoy for as little or much as I like and not be restricted. In that front, using the term P2W like that takes all the bite out of it.

    Now, unlike Chai who spouted off some obtuse phrasing like "I use the widely accepted term" which is what caused all the problems to start with, because he was in fact not using the widely accepted definition of what is P2W.

    Anyway, thank you for the discussion, but we simply do not agree on what P2W means in a teram of it's own right, and that means that we won't be able to agree on if this is P2W or not. I am sure you think it is by the definition you use for P2W.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    P2w doesnt have a negative connotation.
    i think i'll just repeat myself...
    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    if "pay to win" didn't have a negative connotation, we wouldn't ever be having this conversation.
    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    There are games coming out right now that are shameless p2w, and do not hide behind the false pretense of technicalities negating the definition.
    and i have absolutely no desire to play them. i'll keep playing the game where i can chose to pay or not pay and still be equally powerful, thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    You arent footing my bill. Ive been a paying customer for 7 years.
    great! so have i! so what're you complaining about again?
    Last edited by katz; 08-27-2013 at 10:01 AM.

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  10. #210
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    and i have absolutely no desire to play them. i'll keep playing the game where i can chose to pay or not pay and still be equally powerful, thanks.
    The same game where you can buy raw character power, which does make the toon more powerful, in a much shorter time than it would have taken to obtain that power playing.

    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    great! so have i! so what're you complaining about again?
    That supporting p2w begets more of the same. Due to the support it has received, it will be designed into the game to a higher degree in the future. When I said this in the past people attempted to disagree with that as well, and now here we are with raid timer bypass, +5 tomes, and even quest objectives, which can be paid to bypass with RL$.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The same game where you can buy raw character power, which does make the toon more powerful, in a much shorter time than it would have taken to obtain that power playing.
    not even gonna....



    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    That supporting p2w begets more of the same. Due to the support it has received, it will be designed into the game to a higher degree in the future. When I said this in the past people attempted to disagree with that as well, and now here we are with raid timer bypass, +5 tomes, and even quest objectives, which can be paid to bypass with RL$.
    dang man. first you say it doesn't have a negative connotation, now you drop this bomb. make up your mind.

    also, which quest objective can be bypassed with money?

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  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    We have bags that can be named? Scroll bags? Potion bags?

    We have a bank that is organized?

    We have subs that are worth paying for with really nice perks?

    These are just a few suggestions that people have asked for and have offered to pay extra for. We don't have them. When a company resorts to P2W to trivialize their own game, it means they want to make a bigger profit or its a last resort to keep player interest. There's enough of an attraction that Turbine could keep the interest of players, but any changes they make has been too little too late as people get fed up and leave or Turbine just won't listen.
    Uhm no one but ****** bag VIP types want better VIP perks, its pretty clear since the onset of the hybrid system being premium was not meant to be secondary to subbers, subbing is a dieing concept as its more focussed at adult gamers as the first EQ was. Now days unless it has an actual legal adult restriction like age of conan has with its mature rating, kids are coming in vast numbers. Parents tend to be like *** when they find out a game they just bought a kid also comes with a monthly sub fee.

    Likewise no one sane suggest more bag space or custom names for bags, instead we sanely ask for them to completely do away with all the vast waste of program power and server bandwidth that is the bajillion different nick nacks we have to store away. This games lag would vanish overnight if we got rid of all the collectables, ingrediants, and their like. If all we needed was coin and xp to craft ( along with the feats and the need to be on a casting class) would be the much more ideal and D&D like fix this game needs.

    No need for scroll bags, potion bags etc, because all the actual good builds in DDO depend entirely on built in ability. Even my rogues these days in epic forsake heal scrolls for cacoon, and just farm tangle root for a stack of do it all pottage so I dont need pots for a variety of status effects.

    All I see from your PoV is someone who is still seeing a game a few eras back. Also ViP already get 2 major perks, an XP boost, and the ability to open quests right out the gate on max dif( a stupid advantage as it largely contributes to new players coming to expect it as a dif they can tackle head on from the moment they hit the ground running) Just because TR junkies dont notice that perk does not mean premiums who dont do the TR thing dont feel very annoyed with having to rerun content multiple times when we already know it far to well to even be challenged in most HE if naked, blind, cursed, and disabled from stat dmg.

  13. #213
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    dang man. first you say it doesn't have a negative connotation, now you drop this bomb. make up your mind.
    What i just stated doesnt have a negative connotation.

    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    also, which quest objective can be bypassed with money?
    NPCs in quests and in the slayer zones will allow you to donate AS to their cause if your social skills arent high enough to influence them.

    PC: But but...you should save yourself from the god aweful prison, yo have the chance, run!!!!"

    NPC: "what kind of diplomatic solutuion is that? Now giving me 6 shards will convince me to save my own life..."
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  14. #214
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karavek View Post
    Uhm no one but ****** bag VIP types want better VIP perks, its pretty clear since the onset of the hybrid system being premium was not meant to be secondary to subbers, subbing is a dieing concept as its more focussed at adult gamers as the first EQ was. Now days unless it has an actual legal adult restriction like age of conan has with its mature rating, kids are coming in vast numbers. Parents tend to be like *** when they find out a game they just bought a kid also comes with a monthly sub fee.
    Kind of odd then, that 8 out of the top 10 of the most populated games are sub games.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  15. #215
    Community Manager Cordovan's Avatar
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    Due to fighting and insults, this thread is now closed.
    Have fun, and don't forget to gather for buffs!
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