Page 5 of 11 FirstFirst 123456789 ... LastLast
Results 81 to 100 of 215
  1. #81
    Community Member Desdemonte's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    442

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    False. Its a mere technicality only brought up by those who have no refutation of actual stance on the real issue being discussed, in attempt to bog the discussion down with analysis paralysis.



    Arguing its not pay to win using this literal justification is like saying we cant drive on the highway to New York, because theres no low-way, and New York is neither New or York, since York is in the United kingdom, which isn't even United on all issues, nor has it been a Kingdom for quite some time now.

    The widely accepted definition encompasses alot more than the literal definition youre trying to (errantly) restrict it to. The only people trying to restrict the definition are those who have no refutation of actual stance made using said definition, so they attempt to lawyer the definition of the term itself, which is the only argument they have, but alas thsy lose that one too.

    OK then Chai- explain to us how any of this is p2w and will hurt the game.

  2. #82
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    7,154

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The widely accepted definition encompasses alot more than the literal definition youre trying to (errantly) restrict it to.
    No it doesn't.

    The definition is Listed should be the only term it applies to, otherwise you are using it wrongly. That is why we define what words mean to start with.

    What you, and others are doing is the equivalent of eyeballing a centimeter and then when told you were incorrect you respond with "that is what I think an centimeter should be" and you expect to be taken seriously?

    Look, thanks to nubs not being able to use P2W correctly this is what it has decayed to mean: "Waaaahhh Waaaahhh they are selling something I don't want them to sell! Waaaahh Waaahhh P2W!"
    Last edited by Ungood; 08-26-2013 at 10:16 AM.

  3. #83
    Community Member Desdemonte's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    442

    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    No it's not. It is the keystone of the entire premise of what is P2W and what is not.



    Because there are a lot of people who are wrong and unwilling to admit that. The Widely and originally used definition of P2W came about in war games, hence the idea of Pay to Win, and was used in only 2 ways.

    The first being: Where people could simply pay money and win any battle or fight.

    This is really where the idea of P2W came from. You could just "Buy a Win" and this term is pretty much still exclusive to war and PvP games and has zero place among any MMO I have played, unless there is a PvP MMO where I can use cash purchases to circumvent losing the fight.

    Now, this does exist in DDO in the forum of: Raise Cakes, Healing Potions, Mana Pots, and the like being open in the store, because I can use money to not have to lose the quest. Notice that is not what this topic is taking about at all, on any level. I would like to add that even this type of P2W is somewhat limited in DDO because you can't use raise cakes in raid.

    The second being: You needed to pay cash to get the best stuff:

    Ok this seems to be the big one, and makes grown people cry the mantra that "I need to pay money for it so it's P2W". In fact, it seems that when people spout the P2W whines, it really boils down to the idea they they can buy something from the store.

    Well the truth is, if you don't need to pay money for it, it's not P2W.

    The reality behind this term and use is that as long as you can get in freely playing the game it's not P2W, it rise came about (again, in War Games and PvP games) which would require that you have specific cash purchased only items to allow you to make the best troops in the game, or had to pay money to get the best gear/items. This if you wanted any hope to win, you had to pay for it.

    The closest this exists in DDO is adventure packs.

    And yet you don't see people making a fuss that you had to buy Giant Hold to get Madstone boots.

    As for Tomes, they don't even blip on the radar of what is P2W.

    I don't even see mana pots as p2w because you can get them in game for plat. Also, they are only a temporary solution. They are a finite resource and I can't believe people will spend the kind of money required to beat a difficult quest over and over and over again. Sure, there may be the odd one, but I imagine its a rarity. They're no more than a temporary crutch. Nobody using them to "win" has any effect on me, other than to maybe give tactics on how I may beat that quest. I take server and game firsts with a grain of salt and say "meh". The goal of any caster is to complete without pots and they can't go very long chugging them before they run out of $.
    Last edited by Desdemonte; 08-26-2013 at 10:32 AM.

  4. #84
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Wisconsin, birthplace of D&D
    Posts
    20,946

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Desdemonte View Post
    I don't even see mana pots as p2w because you can get them in game for plat. Also, they are only a temporary solution. They are a finite resource and I can't believe people will spend the kind of money required to beat a difficult quest over and over and over again. Sure, there may be the odd one, but I imagine its a rarity. They're no more than a temporary crutch. Nobody using them to "win" has any effect on me, other than to maybe give tactics on how I may beat that quest. I take server and game firsts with a grain of salt and say "meh". The goal of any caster is to complete without pots and they can't go very long chugging them before they run out of $.
    Those familiar with the way social game monetixzation works understand that most of the gimmicks are utilized heavily by 2-4% of the populace. Yes, there are people who pay alot of stacks of mana potions, raid timer bypass, and Xp stones. It doesnt have to be anywhere near the majority of the populace in order to succeed financially using this model, because that is what is expected using this model in the first place.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  5. #85
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    2,012

    Default

    And with this business model of 'allow the customer to purchase things with one-time payments and then never get another penny from them because we allow free play' - how, precisely, is Turbine supposed to make money, if they don't regularly SELL us stuff with one-time payments?

    And in order to sell stuff, they must be stuffs that peoples wants.

    IE; Ottos - EXP potions - +5 tomes... expansions.

    I'm not begrudging them the ability to make money; if people want to buy their treasure, let them, as the money goes to improve the game we all play.

    All of these pay-to-win threads are very silly, can I pay-to-remove-pay-to-win-threads mr quartermaster, yet, please?

  6. #86
    Community Member Desdemonte's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    442

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Those familiar with the way social game monetixzation works understand that most of the gimmicks are utilized heavily by 2-4% of the populace. Yes, there are people who pay alot of stacks of mana potions, raid timer bypass, and Xp stones. It doesnt have to be anywhere near the majority of the populace in order to succeed financially using this model, because that is what is expected using this model in the first place.
    So how do those 2-4% impact the game you or I are playing other than to keep the doors open?

  7. #87
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Wisconsin, birthplace of D&D
    Posts
    20,946

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    No it doesn't.

    The definition is Listed should be the only term it applies to, otherwise you are using it wrongly. That is why we define what words mean to start with.
    Not in the english language they dont. Slang is not relegated to mean the sum of all definitions of each word in the term.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    What you, and others are doing is the equivalent of eyeballing a centimeter and then when told you were incorrect you respond with "that is what I think an centimeter should be" and you expect to be taken seriously?
    What you are doing is bogging the discussion in analysis paralysis of the definition of a term, for 4 years straight, rather than actually discussing the topic at hand. Its a widely known method of disrupting discussions, used by those who have no refutation of the actual premise itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Look, thanks to nubs not being able to use P2W correctly this is what it has decayed to mean: "Waaaahhh Waaaahhh they are selling something I don't want them to sell! Waaaahh Waaahhh P2W!"
    Another straw man argument, which has nothing to do with my stance. But of course if stance cant be refuted, drum up something far weaker, then attempt to demonize the strawman.

    Rules lawyering that english slang must mean the sum of the definition of each word in the term is absurd. Theres hundreds of years of evolution of the language that supports this statement, with a myriad of examples.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  8. #88
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Wisconsin, birthplace of D&D
    Posts
    20,946

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Desdemonte View Post
    So how do those 2-4% impact the game you or I are playing other than to keep the doors open?
    2-4% are the big spenders. They arent the only ones impacted. THey are the ones trivializing the game with endless mana potions and stacks of raid timer bypass.

    Youll see the impact in a few short months, when more threads are appearing about the lack of LFMs, no one to game with, log in counts and population spikes downward on other tracking sites. WHen this happens, note how quickly those who blindly defend paying to circumvent playing demand evidence, and then when its brought, demonize and casually dismiss all sources of information as inaccurate or misleading.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  9. #89
    Community Member Desdemonte's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    442

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Not in the english language they dont. Slang is not relegated to mean the sum of all definitions of each word in the term.



    What you are doing is bogging the discussion in analysis paralysis of the definition of a term, for 4 years straight, rather than actually discussing the topic at hand. Its a widely known method of disrupting discussions, used by those who have no refutation of the actual premise itself.



    Another straw man argument, which has nothing to do with my stance. But of course if stance cant be refuted, drum up something far weaker, then attempt to demonize the strawman.

    Rules lawyering that english slang must mean the sum of the definition of each word in the term is absurd. Theres hundreds of years of evolution of the language that supports this statement, with a myriad of examples.
    You realize you're just repeatedly responding with your own mantra of buzz words and gobbldygook, right?

  10. #90
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Wisconsin, birthplace of D&D
    Posts
    20,946

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by eris2323 View Post
    And with this business model of 'allow the customer to purchase things with one-time payments and then never get another penny from them because we allow free play' - how, precisely, is Turbine supposed to make money, if they don't regularly SELL us stuff with one-time payments?

    And in order to sell stuff, they must be stuffs that peoples wants.

    IE; Ottos - EXP potions - +5 tomes... expansions.

    I'm not begrudging them the ability to make money; if people want to buy their treasure, let them, as the money goes to improve the game we all play.

    All of these pay-to-win threads are very silly, can I pay-to-remove-pay-to-win-threads mr quartermaster, yet, please?
    Yeap, ironic however, that many of the same people who staunchly defended the f2p model as the savior of the game a few years ago are now the ones who are pointing out how poorly thought out it was for the long term financial success of the game. My post a few pages ago outlined this very concept. People are now beginning to complain that because they spent money to acquire raid loot far more quickly than anyone else could, that Turbine should not simpoly invalidate that loot with random generated loot that anyone can obtain.

    Then the SAME PEOPLE post how it doesnt affect anyone negatively, when they themselves are posting that payment should equal entitlement. Once that loot was acquired did they think Turbine was just going to allow the marketing model to stagnate? The new incentive for payment is power creep. When the new raid comes out and invalidates all the previous raids weapons, coms, and upgrades, will those same folks continue to p2w to obtain the new loot like they did the oprevious batch of power creep?
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  11. #91
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Wisconsin, birthplace of D&D
    Posts
    20,946

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Desdemonte View Post
    You realize you're just repeatedly responding with your own mantra of buzz words and gobbldygook, right?
    Please stop acting like this same level of repetition of stances on the issue doesnt exist on both sides. I note youre not quoting those who agree with you and calling them out for the same reason, even though they have been repeating themselves as long as I and those who gree with me have on this topic.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  12. #92
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    2,012

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Yeap, ironic however, that many of the same people who staunchly defended the f2p model as the savior of the game a few years ago are now the ones who are pointing out how poorly thought out it was for the long term financial success of the game. My post a few pages ago outlined this very concept. People are now beginning to complain that because they spent money to acquire raid loot far more quickly than anyone else could, that Turbine should not simpoly invalidate that loot with random generated loot that anyone can obtain.

    Then the SAME PEOPLE post how it doesnt affect anyone negatively, when they themselves are posting that payment should equal entitlement. Once that loot was acquired did they think Turbine was just going to allow the marketing model to stagnate? The new incentive for payment is power creep. When the new raid comes out and invalidates all the previous raids weapons, coms, and upgrades, will those same folks continue to p2w to obtain the new loot like they did the oprevious batch of power creep?
    Your choices are very simple.

    Play - or not play.

    You could take a break, if it bothers you that much, try a new game, see if you can avoid the same problems every MMO has...

    PS: "Please turbine add new content but none of it can be better than old stuff i worked soooooo hard for okay thanks" = LOL (not saying you in particular, but you know, in general)

  13. #93
    Community Member Desdemonte's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    442

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    2-4% are the big spenders. They arent the only ones impacted. THey are the ones trivializing the game with endless mana potions and stacks of raid timer bypass.

    Youll see the impact in a few short months, when more threads are appearing about the lack of LFMs, no one to game with, log in counts and population spikes downward on other tracking sites. WHen this happens, note how quickly those who blindly defend paying to circumvent playing demand evidence, and then when its brought, demonize and casually dismiss all sources of information as inaccurate or misleading.
    You are giving only vague allusions here, but I know what you are hinting at. Perhaps you are puting too much stock in the ability to purchase things with cash, rather than natural player attrition and the evolution of an MMO far past maturity? One that is in an extremely competitive market, not just for MMO dollars but gaming dollars in general?

    This is not the game it was 3 years ago where it was all pretty straight forward. New people trying to break into the game are far more overwhelmed with its complexity and are therefore less likely to stick around. Measures need to be taken to retain them. Yes, I agree that the veteran population is an important resource and also needs to be retained. But the 2-4% "p2w-ers" are not really the vets we need to keep. If they cannot exhibit enough fiscal restraint to keep the game engaging for themselves, good riddance.

  14. #94
    Community Member Desdemonte's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    442

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Please stop acting like this same level of repetition of stances on the issue doesnt exist on both sides. I note youre not quoting those who agree with you and calling them out for the same reason, even though they have been repeating themselves as long as I and those who gree with me have on this topic.
    Oh, I think both sides arguing the semantics of a definition is absurdity to the point of hilarity.

  15. #95
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Wisconsin, birthplace of D&D
    Posts
    20,946

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Desdemonte View Post
    You are giving only vague allusions here, but I know what you are hinting at. Perhaps you are puting too much stock in the ability to purchase things with cash, rather than natural player attrition and the evolution of an MMO far past maturity? One that is in an extremely competitive market, not just for MMO dollars but gaming dollars in general?

    This is not the game it was 3 years ago where it was all pretty straight forward. New people trying to break into the game are far more overwhelmed with its complexity and are therefore less likely to stick around. Measures need to be taken to retain them. Yes, I agree that the veteran population is an important resource and also needs to be retained. But the 2-4% "p2w-ers" are not really the vets we need to keep. If they cannot exhibit enough fiscal restraint to keep the game engaging for themselves, good riddance.
    This is not how Turbine views it. The p2wers are exactly who they are trying to keep returning, and power creep is what keeps them coming back. They can complain all they want about how the previous loot they paid for is invalid, because now that the carrot is sweetened, they either need to pay or play to get the new loot. Since convenience is what is being justified here, they will continue to return and pay for more, and as long as that financial hamster wheel is still rolling, this is what will continue to be delivered and marketed as product.

    And +5 tomes are going to retain new players? I dont think so.

    Most of the "complexity" of the game has been removed. Your statement might have been true ~2008 but since then alot has been done to make this game new player friendly. This game is MORE straight forward than it was 3 years ago, by far.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  16. #96
    Community Member Desdemonte's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    442

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Yeap, ironic however, that many of the same people who staunchly defended the f2p model as the savior of the game a few years ago are now the ones who are pointing out how poorly thought out it was for the long term financial success of the game. My post a few pages ago outlined this very concept. People are now beginning to complain that because they spent money to acquire raid loot far more quickly than anyone else could, that Turbine should not simpoly invalidate that loot with random generated loot that anyone can obtain.

    Then the SAME PEOPLE post how it doesnt affect anyone negatively, when they themselves are posting that payment should equal entitlement. Once that loot was acquired did they think Turbine was just going to allow the marketing model to stagnate? The new incentive for payment is power creep. When the new raid comes out and invalidates all the previous raids weapons, coms, and upgrades, will those same folks continue to p2w to obtain the new loot like they did the oprevious batch of power creep?
    I get what you're saying, but I'm not sure that is as much the heart of the problem as you imply. It has a lot to do with the game needing to give the "have everythings" something to do at level 20 in a mature MMO. Unfortunately they went overboard with easy to acquire OP items and EDs. Now they are stuck. The power creep has been accelerated and they're trying to cope with it.

    Now it's either embrace it or go backwards so they need to choose the lesser of 2 evils. Hopefully they tone it down and don't listen to the people who circumvent the grind process too quickly for their own good. Really though, if you look at what is purchaseable in store, none of it is a very big deal.

  17. #97
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Wisconsin, birthplace of D&D
    Posts
    20,946

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by eris2323 View Post
    Your choices are very simple.

    Play - or not play.

    You could take a break, if it bothers you that much, try a new game, see if you can avoid the same problems every MMO has...

    PS: "Please turbine add new content but none of it can be better than old stuff i worked soooooo hard for okay thanks" = LOL (not saying you in particular, but you know, in general)
    Right, which is what they did for a number of years actually. The eSOS was the best weapon in the game for 3 years. It still is in many circumstances, just not all.

    Its more like: "Please turbine add new content but none of it can drop loot that invalidates old stuff i paid soooooo much for in the past, okay thanks".
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  18. #98
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Wisconsin, birthplace of D&D
    Posts
    20,946

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Desdemonte View Post
    I get what you're saying, but I'm not sure that is as much the heart of the problem as you imply. It has a lot to do with the game needing to give the "have everythings" something to do at level 20 in a mature MMO. Unfortunately they went overboard with easy to acquire OP items and EDs. Now they are stuck. The power creep has been accelerated and they're trying to cope with it.

    Now it's either embrace it or go backwards so they need to choose the lesser of 2 evils. Hopefully they tone it down and don't listen to the people who circumvent the grind process too quickly for their own good. Really though, if you look at what is purchaseable in store, none of it is a very big deal.
    No one item in and of itself is a very big deal, but added up, it is a big deal, especially for those who get caught up in the pixelated arms race that is the new power creep.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  19. #99
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    10,023

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by eris2323 View Post
    And with this business model of 'allow the customer to purchase things with one-time payments and then never get another penny from them because we allow free play' - how, precisely, is Turbine supposed to make money, if they don't regularly SELL us stuff with one-time payments?

    And in order to sell stuff, they must be stuffs that peoples wants.

    IE; Ottos - EXP potions - +5 tomes... expansions.

    I'm not begrudging them the ability to make money; if people want to buy their treasure, let them, as the money goes to improve the game we all play.

    All of these pay-to-win threads are very silly, can I pay-to-remove-pay-to-win-threads mr quartermaster, yet, please?
    Nobody asked for an Ottos. People asked for a better xp curve. Nobody asked to buy stat tomes. People just asked for a more fair drop rate. Nobody asked to bypass raid timers. People asked for it to be shortened. Nobody asked if they could pay to teleport to quests. People just asked simply for a teleporter to get to those far and away quests.

    It hasn't been until the last couple years that people are actually suggesting to pay for certain ways to bypass parts of the game because they know Turbine will make something up and put it into the store as long as they feel its profitable. When people ask for a change in the game its no coincidence that people jokingly or sarcastically say "Now in the DDO store for a limited time! ...". We have come to expect P2W for every little thing now.

    To think a game "needs" P2W to be successful, profitable or enough to keep the lights on is just silly thinking. There's been lots of ideas suggested by players from fluff to items to content to subs over the years that is not P2W and all they have to do is read through Suggestions and Ideas.

  20. #100
    Community Member Desdemonte's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    442

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    This is not how Turbine views it. The p2wers are exactly who they are trying to keep returning, and power creep is what keeps them coming back. They can complain all they want about how the previous loot they paid for is invalid, because now that the carrot is sweetened, they either need to pay or play to get the new loot. Since convenience is what is being justified here, they will continue to return and pay for more, and as long as that financial hamster wheel is still rolling, this is what will continue to be delivered and marketed as product.

    And +5 tomes are going to retain new players? I dont think so.

    Most of the "complexity" of the game has been removed. Your statement might have been true ~2008 but since then alot has been done to make this game new player friendly. This game is MORE straight forward than it was 3 years ago, by far.
    I think you need numbers that are impossible to get to say purchasing items is what keeps players or drives them away. There are many reasons for player attrition. Sure, this may be one of them but there are many more.

Page 5 of 11 FirstFirst 123456789 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload