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  1. #121
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    So tell me than. Has P2W always meant exactly what it means. I mean, is there and has there been MMOs that actually allow you to pay and win?
    In simple terms: Yes,

    From it's inception and the games that triggered the phrase to be used, to today, it means what it has always meant.

    As others have said, there are MMO's MOBA's and many PvP games that have had this "feature" designed into them where players could and would literally spend real cash to buy power-ups of one form or another, to make it so they could not lose. This meant that for a few bucks your opponent could literally invalidate all your skill, ability, time you put into the game, and the only way you would have a chance to beat them is if you spent real money as well.

    That is why this term is hated and has such stigma attached to it. take that away, and the phrase is a benign joke. and quite literally, P2W has no real place in an PvE exclusive game like DDO.

    To simply have it mean to be able to buy with cash some auxiliary items you can earn in game makes the phrase totally worthless.

    So don't be fooled by a few people who like to try and toss it out for shock value, with no real understanding of the phrase, why it has the stigma it has, or what it means, using the term P2W, is like any other phrase, if you toss it out without fully grasping what you are talking about, then you you're the one that looks bad.
    Last edited by Ungood; 08-26-2013 at 03:25 PM.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    We have bags that can be named? Scroll bags? Potion bags?

    We have a bank that is organized?

    We have subs that are worth paying for with really nice perks?
    Which is more likely? A company that has built one of the longest running MMOs on the market just doesn't understand its own business model, or that the player base doesn't understand what is profitable?


    These are just a few suggestions that people have asked for and have offered to pay extra for. We don't have them. When a company resorts to P2W to trivialize their own game, it means they want to make a bigger profit or its a last resort to keep player interest. There's enough of an attraction that Turbine could keep the interest of players, but any changes they make has been too little too late as people get fed up and leave or Turbine just won't listen.
    Except there's a fine line. The only thing mentioned in these threads that are actually p2w are xp stone and raid bypass timers. These are also the things least complained about because people actually like them and buy them in droves. Things like tomes in the store and other nonsense that can be easily found in game won't drive people away, because they have no where to go that doesn't offer these things.

  3. #123
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel_666 View Post
    Better example for you Chai. New York is commonly referred to as "The Big Apple".

    Using Ungood's literal word for word definition that must mean that New York is an actual giant Apple...
    Actually dispiote Chai's ignorance, and outright foolishness, I am not using the Literal definition of each of the words, I am using the established meaning of the phase.

    What's the difference you ask?

    Well, look at the Phrase "The Big Apple" , if we were to go by Chai, that could mean whatever he thinks it should mean, Which would be just silly, if not outright moronic.

    The Phrase "The Big Apple" has it history linked into the jazz scene of New York, but when you have people like Chai running around saying "it's slang it can mean whatever I want" who knows, he might start to talk about literal apples.

    The truth is, P2W, came about because it described exactly what was going on. game companies would put Power-Ups in the store for real cash, that could make a player unbeatable unless their opponent bought MORE power then they had. Thus the term was used to describe the practice of Players paying game companies for the ability to win PvP fights.. Literally.

    So, it's not about the "Literal" definition of the words: pay two win, it is about the real definition and origin of the term itself, what brought it about, and what it was in Reference to.

    Now Chai is well known for going to any lengths and making himself look like a buffoon to cling to his point, I encourage you not to join him.
    Last edited by Ungood; 08-26-2013 at 03:28 PM.

  4. #124
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    So tell me than. Has P2W always meant exactly what it means. I mean, is there and has there been MMOs that actually allow you to pay and win?
    People take 'winning' a bit literally. I see it more in terms of a goal you would like to reach. For instance, gathering all your favourite gear or becoming a completionist. Any artificial means that speeds up the natural process of reaching your goal can be regarded as 'winning' with respect to your goal. If you pay for the item or feature that achieves this speed-up, you are basically paying to win. Such items include bypass timers, xp potions, astral shards, and otto's boxes, among others. Quest packs, classes, and the epic destiny system are natural to the design of the game and are hence not P2W.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalimah View Post
    This is not D&D. It uses some similarities and some basic ideas of the general mechanics. But it is not D&D.
    It is D&D, affirm that it is gone through an evolution if you like (pnp has, so has DDO). It is branded D8D still. DDO also continues to use most of the concepts, if not many of the same rules. It also attempts to capture the same spirit of gaming - the lure of adventure, the spirit of the fight, and the thrill of reward.

    My point being, D&D was never about 'buying' the loot. The - what I call - "excuse" that because DDO is run with software, on servers, as an MMO, and therefore it's "ok" for them to make money doing things like selling "loot" doesn't fly with me. I understand other people don't care and will attempt to justify it as "their money" or "it doesn't bother me." Hey, cool, I respect that perspective. I think those views fail to recognize that the sale of "loot" (I consider pots, tomes, weapons, and armor among other items sold in the Store to fall into this category) diminishes the game experience and has an overall negative affect on the player base.

    I think DDO had other, better options to use the Store to make their fortune rather than resorting to the sale of treasure items. They have started to use some, left them behind and come to them (e.g., cosmetics), others they have failed to utilize (e.g., true player housing and potential related sundries).
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  6. #126
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    People take 'winning' a bit literally.
    That has to with he fact that P2W originated from PvP games, and really has no place in the PvE environment at all. The reason why P2W was so bad ws because players could and would literally spend real cash to buy power-ups of one form or another, to make it so they could not lose. This meant that for a few bucks your opponent could literally invalidate all your skill, ability, time you put into the game, and the only way you would have a chance to beat them is if you spent money as well.

    That is why this term is hated and has such stigma attached to it. take that away, and the phrase is a benign joke. Much like this outrage over +5 tomes.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Much like this outrage over +5 tomes.
    Ah well, each to their own, right? We all have different things which disappoint or break us, no?

    I believe my Op said I was sad. Not upset, not outraged. I was sad on 2 levels - one that the tomes are for sale and two, that the powers that be swept into the pack under cover of night - although, please - don't take the slang literally. I didn't ask for anyone to agree.

    Part of the issue on these forums is a failure of posters to respect that others have differing views. I respect that this is not an issue to which you feel there is much meat to it. I, on the other hand, see this as yet one more step down the slope of DDO completely selling out to corporate greed v. making a game I love better than it is now.

    Many posters here "trust" Turbine. I don't. I think that although there have been plenty of times when the powers that be have paid some heed to the player base, I think there have been a few too many times when they have slapped the player base upside the head. Some players just haven't been here long enough to have been slapped enough or some players have a higher tolerance for being slapped without losing their trust. Not me.
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  8. #128
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    It means far more than the sum of literal definition of each word in the term added up,
    OMG! LOL.. I just figured this out.

    You thought I was talking about the Literal Definition of each world alone?

    Not to be too melodramatic.. but BUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    You seriously did not know the origin of the Phrase P2W and what it applied to? You really had no idea that it was literally describing the practice of players spending money to be able to beat other players in PvP games?

  9. #129
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    That has to with he fact that P2W originated from PvP games, and really has no place in the PvE environment at all. The reason why P2W was so bad ws because players could and would literally spend real cash to buy power-ups of one form or another, to make it so they could not lose. This meant that for a few bucks your opponent could literally invalidate all your skill, ability, time you put into the game, and the only way you would have a chance to beat them is if you spent money as well.

    That is why this term is hated and has such stigma attached to it. take that away, and the phrase is a benign joke. Much like this outrage over +5 tomes.
    P2W has evolved. it is more common in games today much like we see in DDO. there are free options and there are pay options. irritations are purposely implemented into the game and the allure of the "carrot" entices people to spend instead of doing things the "hard" way to get where they want and what they want. there has been no formal agreement on a new acronym that defines what Turbine and other companies do. some people prefer PFC (pay for convenience). I can almost go along with that, but the problem is that its player convenience and when hundreds of people pay for the same thing, it still affects the game as a whole and its a temporary happiness for the paying player. P2W is more universally known and I get that its not used correctly in DDO as long as there are other options without having to pay for it, but even after many discussions of how people like me and Chai are actually trying to get across to people they still come back and say its jealousy or its only +1 more stat or this isn't PVP. ive read through online gaming sites and even they don't have a word or words for what games like Turbine do. as a matter of fact, most articles I have read on the subject have said that its a red flag for companies to suddenly put P2W into their game and they do this usually after the player base has been built up but have to be careful of how much they do so not to scare off their F2P players. its one thing if a game starts out P2W or PFC, which DDO did not, because than people already know ahead of time and know if they are willing to invest in a game like that. Turbine is smart in first building up the player base to get people hooked and asking them to continuously draw a new line in the sand as they have slowly added more and more pay options into the game.

    oh and also, the rage wasn't about +5 tomes at first. its was pretty mellow but than the subject of P2W came up and that's when the rage began.
    Last edited by Qhualor; 08-26-2013 at 04:06 PM.

  10. #130
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hafeal View Post
    Ah well, each to their own, right? We all have different things which disappoint or break us, no?
    I totally agree.

    I believe that everyone is entailed to their own feelings, what they like, don't like, what annoys them and what makes them happy or sad or whatever. I fully support anyone's right to feel as they please about this, and I am not trying to discredits anyone's feelings about this.

    My only point is that this is not P2W.

  11. #131
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    P2W has evolved. it is more common in games today much like we see in DDO. there are free options and there are pay options. irritations are purposely implemented into the game and the allure of the "carrot" entices people to spend instead of doing things the "hard" way to get where they want and what they want. there has been no formal agreement on a new acronym that defines what Turbine and other companies do. some people prefer PFC (pay for convenience). I can almost go along with that, but the problem is that its player convenience and when hundreds of people pay for the same thing, it still affects the game as a whole and its a temporary happiness for the paying player. P2W is more universally known and I get that its not used correctly in DDO as long as there are other options without having to pay for it, but even after many discussions of how people like me and Chai are actually trying to get across to people they still come back and say its jealousy or its only +1 more stat or this isn't PVP. ive read through online gaming sites and even they don't have a word or words for what games like Turbine do. as a matter of fact, most articles I have read on the subject have said that its a red flag for companies to suddenly put P2W into their game and they do this usually after the player base has been built up but have to be careful of how much they do so not to scare off their F2P players. its one thing if a game starts out P2W or PFC, which DDO did not, because than people already know ahead of time and know if they are willing to invest in a game like that. Turbine is smart in first building up the player base to get people hooked and asking them to continuously draw a new line in the sand as they have slowly added more and more pay options into the game.
    I would like to take a moment to make it very clear that the Term P2W has not Evolved, People are simply using it incorrectly for shock value.

    The truth is, what Turbine is doing is not P2W at all, what they are doing would typically be called "fleecing",perhaps, even "Hustling", while others might call it "giving the players what they want" after all, not everyone wants to farm tomes in this game.

    But, "Fleecing" or "Hustling" does not have the shock value of P2W among the gamer community, so now all that happened was someone used the term P2W for propaganda purposes and started a several page dispute on what is P2W, and at the end of the day, this is not it.
    Last edited by Ungood; 08-26-2013 at 04:22 PM.

  12. #132
    The Hatchery Hoglum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hafeal View Post
    My point being, D&D was never about 'buying' the loot.

    Haha, I beg to differ. Heck, back in the day getting me a beer from the fridge could change your destiny.

    So if buying a thing of leveling up is pay to win, then is buying a true heart of heart and getting set back to level 1 considered pay to lose?

  13. #133
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I would like to take a moment to make it very clear that the Term P2W has not Evolved, People are simply using it incorrectly for shock value.

    The truth is, what Turbine is doing is not P2W at all, what they are doing would typically be called "fleecing",perhaps, even "Hustling", while others might call it "giving the players what they want" after all, not everyone wants to farm tomes in this game.

    But, "Fleecing" or "Hustling" does not have the shock value of P2W among the gamer community, so now all that happened was someone used the term P2W for propaganda purposes and started a several page dispute on what is P2W, and at the end of the day, this is not it.
    by all means, start up a new acronym that people can associate this "fleecing" and "hustling". I personally take more offense to those words than I do with P2W. therefore, a business strategy that Turbine uses by offering multiple options, one of which is payment, I don't call it this "hustling" or "fleecing". they are not pulling wool over peoples eyes because they are aware of multiple options and they are not trying to hustle people out of their money. I would rather stick with pay for convenience because that is closer to what Turbine is doing than anything else.

    there is no shock value in talking P2W. the old meaning of it is almost dead as other games are doing the same kind of things like Turbine. even the old meaning of it didn't mean literally what it means and it actually meant you were paying to advance your character because it was the only option, weather it was by gear or content.

  14. #134
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    People take 'winning' a bit literally. I see it more in terms of a goal you would like to reach. For instance, gathering all your favourite gear or becoming a completionist. Any artificial means that speeds up the natural process of reaching your goal can be regarded as 'winning' with respect to your goal. If you pay for the item or feature that achieves this speed-up, you are basically paying to win. Such items include bypass timers, xp potions, astral shards, and otto's boxes, among others. Quest packs, classes, and the epic destiny system are natural to the design of the game and are hence not P2W.
    By this definition, VIP subscribers are = P2W.

    Yes?

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    irritations are purposely implemented into the game and the allure of the "carrot" entices people to spend instead of doing things the "hard" way to get where they want and what they want.
    I will take it a step further. Just like we do not know the sub numbers or other data about who is playing, and who isn't, we don't see Turbine's game code. This is the ultimate trust we have to take with them - that the coding and 'numbers" are "fair." So, when Turbine introduces a new repair elixir to the DDO Store, do you trust that they didn't monkey around with the the damage rates and break rates for equipment? Do you trust the roll numbers on loot tables when you can get a re-roll chance? I mean, wouln't they want to show better rolls the 2nd time to entice AS purchases?

    Sure, there will be those who dismiss the idea that a corporation, run under Fortune 500 umbrella would do such a thing. I say, you don't understand human nature. I want transparency and while Turbine can't show its code, I can be smart and think crticially about their products, and making Store items that circumvent bad results in game, certainly has my eyebrows raised. The smart players, and the vets deftly avoid these pit traps as they were not designed for them. In a society where you see individuals and companies attempt to steal money in creative and wild ways get convicted on a daily basis for crimes ranging from tens of thousands of dollars to millions - you will not convince me that under corporate pressure, DDO execs wouldn't milk the player base at every turn.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hoglum View Post
    Haha, I beg to differ. Heck, back in the day getting me a beer from the fridge could change your destiny.

    So if buying a thing of leveling up is pay to win, then is buying a true heart of heart and getting set back to level 1 considered pay to lose?
    LOL. I guess it depends on the beer you brought back? Not as many IPAs in those days I suspect.
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  16. #136
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    by all means, start up a new acronym that people can associate this "fleecing" and "hustling". I personally take more offense to those words than I do with P2W. therefore, a business strategy that Turbine uses by offering multiple options, one of which is payment, I don't call it this "hustling" or "fleecing". they are not pulling wool over peoples eyes because they are aware of multiple options and they are not trying to hustle people out of their money. I would rather stick with pay for convenience because that is closer to what Turbine is doing than anything else.

    there is no shock value in talking P2W. the old meaning of it is almost dead as other games are doing the same kind of things like Turbine. even the old meaning of it didn't mean literally what it means and it actually meant you were paying to advance your character because it was the only option, weather it was by gear or content.
    Well, I only mentioned fleecing and hustling, because you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    ive read through online gaming sites and even they don't have a word or words for what games like Turbine do.
    However, how about you all start using P4C (Pay for Convenience) as opposed to continuing to wrongly use P2W.

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post

    However, how about you all start using P4C (Pay for Convenience) as opposed to continuing to wrongly use P2W.
    I'll get to your other reply later, it's late here and I'm going to bed soon and it'll take a while to type it out.

    For now though I'll just state my objection to the term "Pay for Convenience".

    In simple terms I object to it because "convenience" can be used to justify almost anything.

    Take Raid Loot for example.

    It would seem silly to suggest that Raid Loot be sold on the DDO Store, surely?

    Well let's look at this "Pay for Convenience" with regards to Raid Loot shall we?


    If you run Caught in the Web every three days without fail for the next ten years, I can guarantee that you will eventually leave with say a Pinion.

    Either you'll pull one yourself, or someone will take pity on the poor bugger who's been trying to get one for the last eight and a half years and pass it.


    So essentially all we're talking about is time, how long it takes you to pull a Pinion in this example.


    Wouldn't it be "convenient" to save ten years of grinding and just pay for it?

    After all if you have the money but don't have the time, what's the difference between Raid Loot and say an XP Stone?

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    What youre going to see posted is more hilarity where people are trying to convince you that slang in the English language is defined by the sum of the definition of each word in the term. Then they will say because you cant "win" its not 'pay to win". I grin each time I see this, because every single native English speaker uses a plethora of slang terms on a daily basis which does not even remotely come close to meaning the sum of each definition of each word in the term. Arguing its not pay to win using this justification is like saying we cant drive on the highway to New York, because theres no low-way, and New York is neither New or York, since York is in the United kingdom, which isn't even United on all issues, nor has it been a Kingdom for quite some time now.

    Im also convinced that each and every person who has been trying to rules lawyer the definition this way for the past 4 years completely understands what the term means when someone uses it, and is only trying to bog the discussion down in a disruptive form of analysis paralysis where every single slang term and use of grammar will be cited as being incorrect. Some would rather see the discussion caught up in this type of disruption for multiple pages, due to the fact that they have no real refutation of the actual stance you are taking on the subject.

    If refutation existed, you would see it and hear it, but since it doesn't, the two most common things you will see is "if you cant win you cant pay to win" and "how does it affect you if someone else buys tomes" - in attempt to try to turn it into some personal discussion, using the straw man argument that you must be jealous of those who buy tomes.
    The rebuttals lack merit because the argument lacks it as well. If you want me to avoid rules lawyering the definition and stick with the slang term then anyone that spends any money on an MMO is paying to win. If you did not earn 100% of your tp by grinding favor then you paid to win. If you have a VIP subscription instead of grinding favor then you are paying to win. All MMO's have always been pay to win since you have to spend money to play them. The only exceptions are F2P MMO's that can be played entirely for free (such as DDO and LOTRO if you are dedicated enough to never pay a penny). I know people argue that buying a quest pack is not pay to win because you still have to play the quest pack but true F2P players (the ones that are not paying to win) had to grind for many hours for what you got by spending a little money (just like a +5 tome). You can arguing that buying the quest pack does not make you stronger, you have to play it to make you stronger. Buying a tome does not make you better either, you have to use it and then play the game to see any effects (I suppose you could use it and then just stand still in town, but if you don't go quest after using it you will never appreciate what the tome did for you).

    Feel free to rebut these argument, but make sure you don't rules lawyer the definition of pay to win (which you will have to). Any money spent in any form enables you to bypass grinding for what you want. Everyone has their own threshold and some people like to complain when other people pass that threshold. I actually enjoy earning my TP and buying things with it. It is far more rewarding for me to know that my expansion and augment bag came from running quests for TP rather than paying to win by simply buying it with real money. The difference is, I don't actually expect everyone to have the same pay-to-win threshold that I do. I consider most of what other players do to be paying to bypass playing the game. Every VIP with their 10% experience boost (many of which use experience elixirs as well) are paying to avoid playing the same quests that I do every life. That is fine. The problem is those same pay-to-winners then have the audacity to come on to the forums and berate other players that are simply using a different form of pay-to-win than they are.
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  19. #139
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I would like to take a moment to make it very clear that the Term P2W has not Evolved, People are simply using it incorrectly for shock value.

    The truth is, what Turbine is doing is not P2W at all, what they are doing would typically be called "fleecing",perhaps, even "Hustling", while others might call it "giving the players what they want" after all, not everyone wants to farm tomes in this game.

    But, "Fleecing" or "Hustling" does not have the shock value of P2W among the gamer community, so now all that happened was someone used the term P2W for propaganda purposes and started a several page dispute on what is P2W, and at the end of the day, this is not it.
    Fleecing and hustling as terms have more shock value than the term p2w. If someone claims Turbine is fleecing its customers with new store items that has more shock value than if someone said turbine put new p2w items in the store.

    There is no shock value in the term p2w at all. People act like they are offended, and then turn around and wage arguments that are far more offensive and personal than anything the term p2w brings to the table. When they attempt to demonize those they disagree with, addressing the poster rather than address the post itself, it is a clear indication of having nothing to contribute to the discussion other than attempted disruption using analysis paralysis for 4 straight years arguing the definition of a term they clearly understand the meaning of in the context of its use. You can go ahead and use your own term if you want, but me, Ima go straight George Carlin and call it what it is.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #140
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erethizon View Post
    The rebuttals lack merit because the argument lacks it as well. If you want me to avoid rules lawyering the definition and stick with the slang term then anyone that spends any money on an MMO is paying to win. If you did not earn 100% of your tp by grinding favor then you paid to win. If you have a VIP subscription instead of grinding favor then you are paying to win. All MMO's have always been pay to win since you have to spend money to play them. The only exceptions are F2P MMO's that can be played entirely for free (such as DDO and LOTRO if you are dedicated enough to never pay a penny). I know people argue that buying a quest pack is not pay to win because you still have to play the quest pack but true F2P players (the ones that are not paying to win) had to grind for many hours for what you got by spending a little money (just like a +5 tome). You can arguing that buying the quest pack does not make you stronger, you have to play it to make you stronger. Buying a tome does not make you better either, you have to use it and then play the game to see any effects (I suppose you could use it and then just stand still in town, but if you don't go quest after using it you will never appreciate what the tome did for you).

    Feel free to rebut these argument, but make sure you don't rules lawyer the definition of pay to win (which you will have to). Any money spent in any form enables you to bypass grinding for what you want. Everyone has their own threshold and some people like to complain when other people pass that threshold. I actually enjoy earning my TP and buying things with it. It is far more rewarding for me to know that my expansion and augment bag came from running quests for TP rather than paying to win by simply buying it with real money. The difference is, I don't actually expect everyone to have the same pay-to-win threshold that I do. I consider most of what other players do to be paying to bypass playing the game. Every VIP with their 10% experience boost (many of which use experience elixirs as well) are paying to avoid playing the same quests that I do every life. That is fine. The problem is those same pay-to-winners then have the audacity to come on to the forums and berate other players that are simply using a different form of pay-to-win than they are.
    Its not necessary to rules lawyer the term, because it already has a widely accepted meaning - which is exactly how I am using it.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

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