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  1. #181
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    By this "quantity = correctness" logic, the earth was flat until a few hundred years ago
    The world circumference was measured before England was a country.

    simply because people who wanted to deny it was round could drum up more people to agree with them. Quantity based arguments do not make them correct. You can drum up more people who agree with you on the internet, congrats.
    I ain't drumming up anything, people read this discussion and they see you are wrong. If anyone is crying for a flat earth, it's you.

  2. #182
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    ftfy
    That exactly what the better loot gen does.. allow people to not play the game.. which you think is the best thing ever!

    you're not only flip flopping, you're on a sinking ship.

  3. #183
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    This is not really correct.

    Adventure Packs: about the oldest P2W in DDO, because buying adventure packs, or more to the point, having items that can only be obtained in those adventure packs is what Pay to Win is all about, because if you want access to the best stuff, or specialty unique stuff in the game, then you need to pay for it, either by being ViP, getting a pass, or buying the pack. Otherwise such things are denied to you. This is the very core idea of what P2W built off of.

    Now some of the newer packs have made the loot from them BtCoE, so they can sold, this circumvent those packs from being P2W, because you can get the items and gear from them by free means.



    Buying Tomes is not really P2W because iirc, they can be farmed out of F2P quests at this point thus they can be obtained totally free, and available to everyone in the game. All you would accomplish by buying the tome would be to be able to sell/trade any tome you looted for perhaps another item you may be looking for, or be able to pass it on to an alt.

    In that front, putting tomes in the store is in fact better for the game as it puts more of the looted tomes into the hands of the populace, and this makes them more available to the player base that did not buy them. In that avenue, players paying to get their tomes, is a win even for the people that didn't.
    It may put more looted tomes on the AH or P2WAH, but it also means people have 1 less reason to replay content. There are people who farm specific quests for tomes. Its already hard enough to get people to play outside of guild, we don't need more reasons to make it worse. There are times you can't always get a group together in guild even. Tomes are only 1 specific cause. Throw in other store products and it just adds more logs to the fire.

  4. #184

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    How exactly do you "win" ddo?

    How many folks that Bought a stack of +5 Tomes run raids on a regular basis?

    How many folks that buy +5 Tomes do you look at and say "Man, that guy(or gal) knows his(her) *&^%! I can only hope that someday I can be as good."

    You are crying about winning something that's not winnable.

    thats really funny.

    Who cares who buys Tomes in the DDO store? It doesnt effect my gameplay at all. It doesnt effect your gameplay. Nobody is winning.
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  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    so they pay some cash to be able to avoid playing most of the game, and not need to farm for an item....
    ftfy

    wow really? so what, pray tell, was i doing with myself when i was running with my friend as he got himself his +4 tomes? sure as heck didn't feel like i was avoiding anything. i own ALL content except for the most recent pack. my TR train consists of "do every quest on elite once." none of this 'farm quest X for Y times, go to next quest" ****. who's REALLY experiencing the game to it's fullest? Me, or some one who's farming quest X,Y, Z, and raids A, and B because they have the best chance to drop a tome they want.

    please do not presume to tell me what i am and am not avoiding and how (YOU THINK) i play, simply because i chose to "win" by buying some +4 tomes in the store.
    Last edited by katz; 08-27-2013 at 08:48 AM.

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  6. #186
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Umm from Wiki- Pay to Play :

    In the sense of selling "better" things like content, packs, races, classes, they are all forms of power-ups and can cross into the P2W venture. Just because this is how Turbine opted to do it, and has been doing it for 4 years now, does not give them an exempt status to making exclusive "better" content Paid Only.
    That's funny you think paying for a sub, buying certain classes and races and paying to have access to content is P2W. There are no this class is more powerful than the other and having access to content does not guarantee you powerful loot. If that was the case than where are my +5 tomes and all my characters should have an ESOS?

  7. #187
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gkar View Post
    Now you are rules lawyering and strawmanning all at once lol. With THAT shortened definition, not the one given in the full context of YOUR source, everything that you pay for in game (including all content packs) is P2W.
    Just realize that almost everything you pay for in this game is P2W, except for content and visual features. That said, P2W is not a bad thing per sé. Some P2W items may actually be good for the game or have little influence..

  8. #188
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    How exactly do you "win" ddo?

    How many folks that Bought a stack of +5 Tomes run raids on a regular basis?

    How many folks that buy +5 Tomes do you look at and say "Man, that guy(or gal) knows his(her) *&^%! I can only hope that someday I can be as good."

    You are crying about winning something that's not winnable.

    thats really funny.

    Who cares who buys Tomes in the DDO store? It doesnt effect my gameplay at all. It doesnt effect your gameplay. Nobody is winning.
    See, this is the confusion we are having. There is no common acronym to use in DDO that people can agree with. Nobody actually wins anything and by buying "power ups" it just makes your character better, not the player. Tomes won't affect anyone playing, but in a round about way its just one more reason to not replay content.

  9. #189
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    fine ya know what? here it is

    I'M PAY TO WIN AND I'M PROUD OF IT!


    i've bought tomes. i've bought cakes. i've bought SP pots. i've bought hearts...lesser, greater, and true. i've bought hires. i've bought an otto's box. i've bought every pack (except the most recent one) because i'm not VIP, and i need to pay to access those packs and that loot. i've bought a blessed silver quarterstaff to use as a crafting blank.


    and i'm happy that i've bought these items and allowed me to ENJOY the game at my leisure at my pace. i can enjoy the game MORE because i don't have to worry about farming X,Y,Z. i'm proud to have supported this game with my wallet so all the freeloaders can turn this game into a full-time job to farm all the favor to buy the packs for free, to farm all the tomes so Turbine doesn't get one red cent of their IRL cash. someone has to pay the staff at Turbine, or we don't get new content... we get closed doors and no game to play at all. your welcome.

    i'm done here.
    Last edited by katz; 08-27-2013 at 09:08 AM.

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  10. #190
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
    That's funny you think paying for a sub, buying certain classes and races and paying to have access to content is P2W. There are no this class is more powerful than the other and having access to content does not guarantee you powerful loot.
    I would like to add that I do not like you making up lies about me. What you said was a direct trolling by misrepresenting what I said.

    However, to keep it simple, so maybe you can understand this, If the bold part is true, then it's not P2W. It's a simple as that.

    It is only P2W if having access to the content, (which includes: classes, races, gear, areas) ensures that those who have the content will have an edge over those that don't regardless of skill, ability, or time played.

    So, do you think with some effort and time, you could invalidate some's cash purchase by farming the tomes yourself for free? If yes, then it's not P2W.

    /discussion.
    Last edited by Ungood; 08-27-2013 at 09:04 AM.

  11. #191
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    So, do you think with some effort and time, you could invalidate some's cash purchase by farming the tomes yourself for free? If yes, then it's not P2W.
    You don't really seem to want to understand, eh? You buy a tome to speed up the farming process and reach the goals for your character faster. Hence, it's P2W. It is irrelevant whether there are other means to get the tome.

  12. #192
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    You don't really seem to want to understand, eh? You buy a tome to speed up the farming process and reach the goals for your character faster. Hence, it's P2W. It is irrelevant whether there are other means to get the tome.
    At this point, You don't get it, so let me try to make this as simple as I can.

    P2W = Money > Everything Else.

  13. #193
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    wow really? so what, pray tell, was i doing with myself when i was running with my friend as he got himself his +4 tomes? sure as heck didn't feel like i was avoiding anything. i own ALL content except for the most recent pack. my TR train consists of "do every quest on elite once." none of this 'farm quest X for Y times, go to next quest" ****. who's REALLY experiencing the game to it's fullest? Me, or some one who's farming quest X,Y, Z, and raids A, and B because they have the best chance to drop a tome they want.

    please do not presume to tell me what i am and am not avoiding and how (YOU THINK) i play, simply because i chose to "win" by buying some +4 tomes in the store.
    WHen you pay for a tome, you are paying to not grind the tome. Period. You are purchasing raw character power, Period. We can lawyer it all we want, slice it and dice it all we want, justify it with whatever technicality about how we can farm it in game all we want, but it is still purchasing raw character power.

    Ity is not a question of your personal playstyle, my personal playstyle or jesus personal playstyle. Its the clear understanding that buying character power is p2w.

    Everything you have stated agrees with my premise btw, even though you are attempting to disagree. You are defining someone playing to earn tomes as experiencing the game more. If the tome is not earned through that play however, then buying it is literally avoiding playing the game in a way you do not wish to, which agrees with my entire premise that just enough irritation is designed into the game that not only makes people want to pay to avoid it, but makes them justify doing so - which I have alot more respect for than people trying to bog the entire discussion down with lawyering of definitions.

    However, justification of this supports designing other irritation into the game in order to entice players to pay to circumvent it. This update weve seen the need to add int in order to make use of these new skills, while at the same time still wanting to qualify for feats which either need a 21 or 23 raw stat + tomes to qualify for. If you want 3 of those feats and they all hinge on having different stat requirements (epic toughness, overwhelming crit, and combat archery for instance) then tomes will be needed. People can either farm them, or pay for them. Or - they can have a character that does less then those who farmed or paid. Justify the paid convenience now, and the game simply gets designed around more of the same.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  14. #194
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    That exactly what the better loot gen does.. allow people to not play the game.. which you think is the best thing ever!

    you're not only flip flopping, you're on a sinking ship.
    If this is what your argument hinges on? Me stating that I like the fact that random loot now matters again? Note that neither random loot nor tomes drop in specific content (its why they call it random). If the conversation is about basketball, youre on a baseball diamond at this point comparing these two things.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  15. #195
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    At this point, You don't get it, so let me try to make this as simple as I can.

    P2W = Money > Everything Else.
    That's the shallow definition of P2W which is mostly used by simple people. I use a broader definition:

    P2W = any paid means which increases the speed of reaching the games objective

  16. #196
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    fine ya know what? here it is

    I'M PAY TO WIN AND I'M PROUD OF IT!


    i've bought tomes. i've bought cakes. i've bought SP pots. i've bought hearts...lesser, greater, and true. i've bought hires. i've bought an otto's box. i've bought every pack (except the most recent one) because i'm not VIP, and i need to pay to access those packs and that loot. i've bought a blessed silver quarterstaff to use as a crafting blank.


    and i'm happy that i've bought these items and allowed me to ENJOY the game at my leisure at my pace. i can enjoy the game MORE because i don't have to worry about farming X,Y,Z. i'm proud to have supported this game with my wallet so all the freeloaders can turn this game into a full-time job to farm all the favor to buy the packs for free, to farm all the tomes so Turbine doesn't get one red cent of their IRL cash. someone has to pay the staff at Turbine, or we don't get new content... we get closed doors and no game to play at all. your welcome.

    i'm done here.
    See, once you stand up and own it, you realize it doesnt have this negative connotation others who are attempting to disagree with me insinutate it has.

    As far as the entire "this is what is needed to keep the lights on" stuff - I dont agree. Note that 8 out of 10 of the most populated MMOs right now, are sub games.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  17. #197
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    That's the shallow definition of P2W which is mostly used by simple people. I use a broader definition:

    P2W = any paid means which increases the speed of reaching the games objective
    Thank you for making that clear. We do not agree on this then. So we will have to agree to disagree if this P2W.
    Last edited by Ungood; 08-27-2013 at 09:34 AM.

  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    fine ya know what? here it is

    I'M PAY TO WIN AND I'M PROUD OF IT!


    i've bought tomes. i've bought cakes. i've bought SP pots. i've bought hearts...lesser, greater, and true. i've bought hires. i've bought an otto's box. i've bought every pack (except the most recent one) because i'm not VIP, and i need to pay to access those packs and that loot. i've bought a blessed silver quarterstaff to use as a crafting blank.


    and i'm happy that i've bought these items and allowed me to ENJOY the game at my leisure at my pace. i can enjoy the game MORE because i don't have to worry about farming X,Y,Z. i'm proud to have supported this game with my wallet so all the freeloaders can turn this game into a full-time job to farm all the favor to buy the packs for free, to farm all the tomes so Turbine doesn't get one red cent of their IRL cash. someone has to pay the staff at Turbine, or we don't get new content... we get closed doors and no game to play at all. your welcome.

    i'm done here.
    Exactly. These constant-pay-to-win-posters should go away and let those of us willing to pay for what we want, either in time or in money enjoy the game in our own way.

    Can we coin a new term now? Can we call it pay-to-whine, and implement a new feature, where it costs 10 turbine points to post any forum messages about ' pay-to-win?

  19. #199
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    See, once you stand up and own it, you realize it doesnt have this negative connotation others who are attempting to disagree with me insinutate it has.
    LOL. The problem here is people thought you were using the correct definition. Moving on now.

  20. #200
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    It's not simply the act of buying something or getting a bit of power, otherwise being able to buy a +1 sword from the Store would be P2W, and its not because there are other, better, items in the game for available for free.

    You are getting bent because "Omg, they get to buy as good an item as I can earn for free"

    Think of how stupid that sounds. "They get to buy as good an item as I can get for free"

    Say that again, just to let it sink it. "They spend money to get what I can get free"

    and you have the audacity to call that P2W?

    Go away troll.
    It is P2W, too. You need considerably less effort to buy this item from the store than to grind it yourself. Whether or not the item is desirable does not matter. P2W is just what it is, you pay to have to spend less effort and achieve your goals quicker. I'm not talking about whether P2W is good or bad, just the notion of P2W.

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