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  1. #1
    Community Member thegreatneil's Avatar
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    Question Animal form and TWF

    Devs: is this WAI?

    Having twf,itwf, Gtwf and Ptwf.
    Seems to grant double strike.
    Using action boost double strike and Celerity cause triple strikes.
    Very important to know, seeing as This affects Every melee druid.

    http://youtu.be/Watu4qRtK3g

    http://youtu.be/qJe_pRlyBWM
    You'll bend to my will - With or without your precious sanity.

    Neilus Soul of the Phoenix - Completionist - Orien

    Quote Originally Posted by blerkington View Post
    Everyone who is more effective than me is OP, and should be nerfed.
    Everyone who has more stuff than me cheated to get it, and should be punished.
    Everyone who plays differently to me is a bad person, and should be mistreated.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegreatneil View Post
    Devs: is this WAI?

    Having twf,itwf, Gtwf and Ptwf.
    Seems to grant double strike.
    Using action boost double strike and Celerity cause triple strikes.
    Very important to know, seeing as This affects Every melee druid.

    http://youtu.be/Watu4qRtK3g

    http://youtu.be/qJe_pRlyBWM
    It had damned well better be working as intended...

  3. #3
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    hopefully it is, but as you said it effects every melee druid there is, so it'd be nice if a dev would say whether it is WAI or not before too many people use the 20+LR so they cna make a decision on whether to include those feats or not.

  4. #4
    Community Member humbleroller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegreatneil View Post
    Devs: is this WAI?

    Having twf,itwf, Gtwf and Ptwf.
    Seems to grant double strike.
    Using action boost double strike and Celerity cause triple strikes.
    Very important to know, seeing as This affects Every melee druid.
    What is your chance of DoubleStrike with TWF, ITWF, GTWF and Natural Fighting feats taken ?
    Real join date: Update 7

  5. #5
    Community Member thegreatneil's Avatar
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    In these videos its 5% DS no natural fighting taken. (I hover over to show this DS at 2 seconds in)
    You'll bend to my will - With or without your precious sanity.

    Neilus Soul of the Phoenix - Completionist - Orien

    Quote Originally Posted by blerkington View Post
    Everyone who is more effective than me is OP, and should be nerfed.
    Everyone who has more stuff than me cheated to get it, and should be punished.
    Everyone who plays differently to me is a bad person, and should be mistreated.

  6. #6
    Community Member humbleroller's Avatar
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    Okay, i just checked my druid who I run as a dog all the time, I dont have any sort of TWF. I am sword&board.


    The feat NaturalFighting give a 6% increase to Double Strike, but i have only taken it once.
    Real join date: Update 7

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    Community Member legendkilleroll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by humbleroller View Post
    Okay, i just checked my druid who I run as a dog all the time, I dont have any sort of TWF. I am sword&board.


    The feat NaturalFighting give a 6% increase to Double Strike, but i have only taken it once.
    What about shield mastery feats? or doublestrike item?

    Im building my first druid, had a plan in mind but would be nice to know if something has changed

  8. #8
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    It's really frustrating we haven't gotten an answer as to whether this is WAI. Both myself and another poster asked about this on the Lamannia forms, and I asked about it in general, and still no Dev response if this WAI.

    I really want to make a 2WF wolf, but since we don't get a free respec every update it will really screw things up if this gets changed back.

    I think it's a really great change, and much needed balancing and simplification, hopefully it's WAI.
    Gildus, Sabathiel, Einion, Yhvain

    Cannith

  9. #9

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    Not sure I understand. So is the TWF chain adding double strike to animal form?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegreatneil View Post
    Devs: is this WAI?

    Having twf,itwf, Gtwf and Ptwf.
    Seems to grant double strike.
    Using action boost double strike and Celerity cause triple strikes.
    Very important to know, seeing as This affects Every melee druid.

    http://youtu.be/Watu4qRtK3g

    http://youtu.be/qJe_pRlyBWM
    There are a couple of things it could be. To me it looks more like your getting an offhand attack, not doublestrike.

    It might be monk class being allowed to work with the twf feats while matched with druid now. Or maybe twf just work on their own.

    Might make some simple test builds up with twf and no doublestrike.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blighty View Post
    There are a couple of things it could be. To me it looks more like your getting an offhand attack, not doublestrike.

    It might be monk class being allowed to work with the twf feats while matched with druid now. Or maybe twf just work on their own.

    Might make some simple test builds up with twf and no doublestrike.
    It is doublestrike. All attacks are always from the main hand weapon and it works with zero monk levels. Technically, the monk implementation is doublestrike as well, as handwraps can only be used in one hand (or maybe it's counted as a pseudo-two-handed weapon?).
    Last edited by richieelias27; 08-21-2013 at 06:50 AM.

  12. #12
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    I think now it is entirely WAI. I didn't think they would remove animal forms access to healing and cold enhancements, and increase the cost of access to racial enhancements for healing amp, and nerf animal form stances without intending to make animal forms better in some other way in compensation. They would also need animal form specific primal feats if druids couldn't use ranger ones.

    Unarmed twf was always 100% str bonus even for offhand, so it gives the appearance of doublestrike. But think of it as an off paw attack at 100% str, so both main and off paw can both also doublestrike.

    It isn't double strike, it is unarmed 2wf.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 08-31-2013 at 11:35 PM.

  13. #13
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    Default testing

    Great Cleave: can twf and double strike (triple or quad hits possible)
    Cleave: no twf, no double strike (single hit only)
    Fists of Iron (Enh. Ki strikes) Can twf and double strike. Is a single attack plus a normal attack combod together. So 3 hits if twf. (triple -sextuplet? hits based on twf and double strike, need more double strike to test)
    Normal Ki Strike: Can twf and double strike. Same timer as enhancement Ki strikes, but not as good.
    Alpha Strike: can twf and double strike (triple or quad hits possible)
    Baiting Bite (Druid spell melee attack) no twf, no double strike (single hit only)

    Whirlwind: untested...anyone have it?
    ED attacks: untested, lvl 16, but supposedly most paths limit use by unarmed:

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...s-in-wolf-form

    (I think this has to do with unarmed not having a weapon to gain the crit profile with handwraps, and not using weapons crit. profile anyways)

    So no sextuplet hit auto-crit godly crit damage/damage % celerity+adrenaline overload Fists of Iron.

    Cleave/wolf melee attack spells are overall a dps loss for twf wolf. Even if you hit 2-3 mobs with it, you still lose 1 second of auto attacks, which is more overall hits.

    Also need to test which ki attacks can be used on different timers than elemental ones. Can't spend ki fast enough.

    Also need to test the sextuplet hit auto crit godly damage combo above...when i hit 20....just in case the changes to druids makes it work now!

    ----------------------------------------
    1 ranger/2mnk/17 druid in fury >>> Quadra strike wolf build.

    Feats

    Rngr Dilli (helf)/ EmpH 1/ PA(mnk2)/ Sap 3/ TWF(mnk3) /Imp. Monk Stance 6 *unlisted lvl 6 min req*/ ITWF 9 / ICB 12/ GTWF 15/ NF 18, 21, 24/ PTWF 26/ Haste 27/ Positive Spell power 28

    Rngr Dilli enhancement ultimately adds 10% dw offhand, and monk deft strikes adds another 10%, so end up at 100%. Every attack now hits twice.

    18% double strike NF feats(untyped), 8% item(morale), 5% improved wind stance(untyped), 5% main hand 10% offhand PTWF(untyped), 3% artifact (black dragon set), 3% alchemical (fabricator's set@60% uptime) Optional 6% twists (2x3% tier 2 GMOF twists)

    So around 42 & 47% double strike. Twists renewal, cocoon, dance of flowers. Ranger adds 75 spell power and 1 sneak die for 6 ap, add 75 spell power from EmpH and decent renews/cocoons. Alternatively, twist 6% more double strike (or energy burst).

    Ranger base adds 2 reflex, adds 3 reflex and 3 additional trap reflex for 4 enh points, monk can add another 2 within budget from ninja spy, and 2 monk adds another 3 reflex base. Wind stance adds dex for another+1. So these 2 classes add 14 to reflex save vs traps and give evasion!

    Combo adrenaline overload, double strike, 100% TWF together with alpha strike.

    Edit: added types of double strike, build lvl 3 feat > Sap (EE no-save CC), reflex of build, removed celerity and DS clickies. Thinking about making 3 Sap 6 Monk Stance > 3 Cleave 6 GC for overload consumption. Not sure I want a 0 CC EE build though. Those chains .

    Edit#2: went with dodge + Monk stance PA provides knockdown CC on a vorpal, as does brawler's gloves. Sleet storm also provides EE CC.
    Last edited by Tilomere; 09-16-2013 at 02:43 PM.

  14. #14
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    I think now it is entirely WAI.
    Whereas I'm a lot more skeptical. An undocumented change to how combat feats work, which provide a lot more DPS than the "official" shapeshifter feats (i.e., Natural Fighting), with zero feedback from the devs as to whether or not this is WAI? I smell "bug verging on exploit," which historically Turbine doesn't comment on publicly, AFAICT, perhaps to avoid drawing attention to it.

    I'd love to be proven wrong, though. With the Reaving Roar & Fatal Harrier nerfs, I really want a good reason not to give up on my shifters.

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    NVM this doesn't work...adrenaline only works on next roll, so if you cleave or alpha 5 targets with DW + DS only the first target 1 roll gets 400% dmg...I finally hit 20 to test ED interactions...
    Last edited by Tilomere; 09-11-2013 at 08:49 PM.

  16. #16
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    Also you should be able to get up to 21d6 sneak attack damage by combining the following:

    Halfling race (4d6 in enhancements)
    Druid 9 (winter wolf and ds feats) (2d6 in enhancements)
    Ranger 6 (for twf, otherwise 1 is enough) (3d6 in enhancements)
    Rogue 5 (3d6 innate, 4d6 in enhancements)
    Shadowdancer ED (5d6)

    Maybe I even forgot a few.

    Should be quite a beast (pun intended) together with dual wielding.
    Last edited by Rhaphael; 09-03-2013 at 09:41 AM.

  17. #17
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaphael View Post
    Halfling race (4d6 in enhancements)
    Druid 9 (winter wolf and ds feats) (2d6 in enhancements)
    Ranger 6 (for twf, otherwise 1 is enough) (3d6 in enhancements)
    Rogue 5 (3d6 innate, 4d6 in enhancements)
    16 APs + 33 APs (presuming you want Celerity) + 6 APs + 22 APs = 77 APs. Just barely fits if I added right.

  18. #18
    Community Member Noyabrina's Avatar
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    Does anybody know news about this topic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noyabrina View Post
    Does anybody know news about this topic?
    Well I guess an indication of an answer would be to see if TWF animal form is actually viable, weaker, or stronger than standard khopesh DW. Take the build above and replace the NF feats with great cleave, cleave, and Khopesh proficiency.

    NVM doesn't work
    Last edited by Tilomere; 09-11-2013 at 08:50 PM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    Hmm...can you check if fury eternal recharges overload in animal form?

    A good reason would be:

    31 base weapon damage (5.5W = 3.5 EE knuckles, 1.5 dance, .5 reinforced)
    55 +10W Alpha strike = +10d10
    5 Magic Fang
    15 (40 Str)
    7 EE knuckles
    5 Ram's / Animal Growth
    10 Deadly X
    6 Fury
    3 Enh
    5 PA
    -----
    139 physical hit

    x2 TWF
    x1.445 Doublestrike without clickies
    x5 Adrenaline overload
    x1.4 17-20x3 crit
    = 2.8k AoE, so on par with energy burst...no save...but melee range...18 second cooldown...sorta decent replacement of reaving roar...could also twist energy burst heh...

    It's almost enough to 1 shot mobs on EH solo or with a hire.
    Can you confirm that this actually works in game and can actually adrenaline AoE every monster near the druid? does it knock them down?(earthquake doesn't make em helpless) if so that's actually not bad, in all honesty takedown is trash otherwise, I had hopes for using it on Primal Avatar in tree form but it seems bug and says i am in an incorrect stance. I would not be surprised if AoE Adrenaline Takedown to every monster it hits its actually as how it was intended as I believe i saw a few posts from devs stating that they intended that fury be the druid melee ED back in the day, still nowhere near as good as a barb who uses cleaves and momentum swings in to a group of enemies or a sorc..but still good.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tilomere View Post
    Well I guess an indication of an answer would be to see if animal form is actually viable, weaker, or stronger than DW. Take the build above and replace the NF feats with great cleave, cleave, and Khopesh proficiency.

    Lets say you DW Khopeshes as above, but only hit for 80/70 DW.
    19/24% double strike makes that 95/87 or 173 total physical damage on great cleave.
    Adrenaline overload +400% damage makes that 869, crit makes that 2607.

    Slower attack speed with khopeshes means you can recharge overload every 13 ish seconds...instead of 10 in wolf form. You are limited by overloads since GC is 6 seconds.
    18 second alpha strike combo above is limited by alpha strike cool-down, with less efficient ki-strike overloads in between.

    So TWF khopeshes has ~50% more AoE damage than wolf form but less single target damage.

    If you take TWF away from wolf form, khopeshes will have 50% more AoE AND more single target damage...aka wolf form will be useless...even after adding 33 enhancement points to buff your wolf form.

    Wolf form would be even further behind, since with khopeshes you can put 33 points to get all the good SLA's, and get maximize instead of improved monk stance for tons of spellpower with them.
    Well melee TWF can have Mornh which is a x3 and can be 15-20 with legendary dreadnaught pulverizer while still receiving superior benefits from actual melee classes;

    Fighters with khopesh or any weapon can just get "One With The Blade" and twist in "A dance with flowers" to receive a 1.5 damage buff with their weapon just like we do, while still getting kensai bonuses to damage and fighter bonus feats(some of which also add even more damage), and get an extra 10% critical chance from keen edge for 13-20.... and use iron fist with their khopesh or mornh for 12-20 +5 W and x4 crit.... jesus...


    Rogues can get 30% crit chance, x3 with any dagger or kukri and while in shadowdancer still do 27d6 or 30d6 if halfling, while assassinating, consuming, and evading 25% via shadow form.


    Add to that that you need level 8 for snow form 1d10 17-20 X3 otherwise you're stuck with 1d6 17-20 x2 and I just don't see how any animal form splash will beat fighter, Monk or rogue even with their extra attack speed and twf feats working while in animal form, maybe we can beat the rangers and arties ? Then weight in the penalties like 2.5 slower cast speed, no heal scrolls while in form, our melee pre not being that good as other classes and you can see why melee druid it mostly a flavor thing, the optimal melee dps is just way ahead. Anyways just give it a month or so before a dev freaking nerfs us because were too "op" with having TWF feats working in animal form =/



    On that last reply... I misread your last quote, thought you were comparing TWF character vs Animal form druid with TWF feats working, but I already typed all that **** so not gonna erase it, if anything people can compare regular TWF vs Animal form.

    Also posted a thread about TWF in animal form here with a more straightforward tittles just so no excuses that they didn't see it(well they can always say they don't see the forums): https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ms-is-this-wai No replies so far, good thing forums not active so its still first page.

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