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  1. #1
    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
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    Default A Workaround for Known Issue: LR +20 with 3 different classes;

    Taken from the known issues list:
    NEW: Hearts of Wood (including the +20 Heart of Wood that every character receives with the release of the Shadowfell Conspiracy) do not allow characters to have more than three classes during the reincarnation process, including "future" levels they haven't taken yet during the respec process, since DDO remembers what class levels you had prior to reincarnating even if the player intended to have only three classes by the end of the process. Swapping the class you don't want into one of your existing classes, and then performing another reincarnation to train into the desired 3rd class, can bypass this issue.
    The proposed swap is interesting, but I don't think that turbine will provide extra hearts for the additional reincarnation.

    However, there's a possible workaround (which won't necessary work with all level splits):

    Suppose you have a 11 Ranger/6 Monk/3 Artificer which you want to LR to, say, 11 Ranger/6 Monk/3 Druid.

    As per above, it isn't possible to swap the 3 Arty levels for 3 Druid levels. But, you could take instead of the old arty levels Ranger and Monk levels until there are no Arty levels left. Then you are free to choose a third class again and fill up the remaining levels (former ranger and monk) with druid. This won't work if you back-loaded the Arty levels, and doesn't let you choose your class progression freely.
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  2. #2
    Founder & Hero Uska's Avatar
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    Don't think that will work it knows you already had 3 classes when you started only way to do it is to be down to 2 classes when you start

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  3. #3
    Community Member -Zephyr-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    Don't think that will work it knows you already had 3 classes when you started only way to do it is to be down to 2 classes when you start
    Yes it will work. As soon as you've erased a class from your split, you can take another one (erased from both previous and next levels).
    This workaround is quite limited tho.
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  4. #4
    Community Manager Cordovan's Avatar
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    This sounds like it would work. One way to think of it is that you cannot have more than four classes at any time during the reincarnation process, and the process remembers what classes you had prior to the respec. So, if you erased all evidence during your travels up the level chain, then yeah, you wouldn't hit the "four classes" wall.
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  5. #5
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    This sounds like it would work.
    Baring the screwup of counting Epic as a class, that is the way it has always worked.

  6. #6
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    I would test anything that is complex out on the Lam server first. Just copy your character there - if you make a mistake on live I am not sure if there is any real good way to undo it. Plus your LR +20 is gone forever.
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  7. #7
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    Question Question

    So am I correct in my understanding of this issue here?

    Say I've got a Rogue/Monk/Wizzie and I LR him via the token to Rogue/Monk/Wizzie of more or less the same level splits, I'll be ok?

    But if I wanted to reconfigure 'im to be Wizzie/Pally/Bard I'd be screwed after the Pally level is taken because of the 4 class 'limit'?

    (Not asking about the build, asking about the LR mechanic and the 'bug').

    I've got some triple classed toons, and at least right now I'm not planning on changing any of their classes right now. Want to know if I'm OK to do that right now, or if I should wait? Dev input appreciated.

  8. #8
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    The other way of looking at is that all your levels are in a list, showing what class you took at each level. You go through the list from first to last level, and can change one line at a time as long as there are never four different classes in the list at each step.

  9. #9
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    Default uh

    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    This sounds like it would work. One way to think of it is that you cannot have more than four classes at any time during the reincarnation process, and the process remembers what classes you had prior to the respec. So, if you erased all evidence during your travels up the level chain, then yeah, you wouldn't hit the "four classes" wall.
    I probably have 30 characters that will be affected by this, no exaggeration. Isnt there a better way? Off the top of my head maybe allow any number of classes while on boat, but don't allow off boat til down to 3. Or force them into a character creation screen where you can control how it will play out before they are let into the world to level.

    The order you take your classes in is vital to a characters skills, this enhancement pass is enough of a nerf already for some builds, this bug (tho no one else seems to be calling it that) makes it a nerf to many more builds that it otherwise would've been.

  10. #10
    Community Manager Cordovan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    I probably have 30 characters that will be affected by this, no exaggeration. Isnt there a better way? Off the top of my head maybe allow any number of classes while on boat, but don't allow off boat til down to 3. Or force them into a character creation screen where you can control how it will play out before they are let into the world to level.

    The order you take your classes in is vital to a characters skills, this enhancement pass is enough of a nerf already for some builds, this bug (tho no one else seems to be calling it that) makes it a nerf to many more builds that it otherwise would've been.
    This is definitely something that's been raised (to change the process to put the three-class restriction at the end, rather than during, the process), but unfortunately cracking open reincarnation is a pretty risky task from a development standpoint, with the potential for some serious and numerous halo issues, and a decision was made to not do this at this time. It's possible that reincarnation could be adjusted to work around this current three-class issue in the future.
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  11. #11
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    Default good to know

    Yeah, im sure its risky, and im also aware that quite a few people didn't have 3 class multis in the past, but after this pass that is going to change, that may need to go up the priority list because its going to affect a lot more players now that multiclass is easier/generally stronger than before.

    I really think the way to go would be to use the character creation subroutine as a base and adjust from there, make it familiar and intuitive hopefully.

    ty for the response.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    I would test anything that is complex out on the Lam server first. Just copy your character there - if you make a mistake on live I am not sure if there is any real good way to undo it. Plus your LR +20 is gone forever.
    Except they closed Lamannia. I wish they would have left it open so we could continue to "trial run" our new builds.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    This is definitely something that's been raised (to change the process to put the three-class restriction at the end, rather than during, the process), but unfortunately cracking open reincarnation is a pretty risky task from a development standpoint, with the potential for some serious and numerous halo issues, and a decision was made to not do this at this time. It's possible that reincarnation could be adjusted to work around this current three-class issue in the future.
    It's unfortunate that this Enhancement development seems to have been so "seat of the pants". The Enhancements were changed so thoroughly, and even Feats affected, that it should have been understood that AT LEAST an LR would be required. And the problem with LR and 3 classes has been known for a long time. But after it was finally decided that we would get LRs, apparently the percentage of characters with 3 classes was small enough that it didn't matter that their LR would probably be borked.

  14. #14
    Community Member Vengenance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    This is definitely something that's been raised (to change the process to put the three-class restriction at the end, rather than during, the process), but unfortunately cracking open reincarnation is a pretty risky task from a development standpoint, with the potential for some serious and numerous halo issues, and a decision was made to not do this at this time. It's possible that reincarnation could be adjusted to work around this current three-class issue in the future.
    Would n't the easy thing to do in this case would be to give everyone 2 free LRs to fix their characters. It doesn't fix the root cause but it it s a good bandaid that will help players painlessly switch their characters over with. The first LR to create a new baseline and the second LR to make the final build.
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  15. #15
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    This has been a painfully poor design from the start, at the very least Turbine needs to give a second LR 20 to every character that has a 3 class split.

    Basic UI design and 1st year coding, do not bounds check in the middle of a process when only the end result matters, bounds check at the end before the process is allowed to finalize.

    Also see: Undo (ability to back up a class level)
    Also see: Confirmation dialog "is 12 rogue 8 Fighter your desired result?"
    Also see: "throw out changes and start over from scratch" feature

    The last three features are desperately needed for the LR system to avoid all the angry and surprised "my build is borked" posts over the last few years. They are very basic and required UI elements.
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 08-19-2013 at 07:35 PM.

  16. #16
    Community Member Eistander's Avatar
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    Attempted to redo my 18/2 sorc/pally into an 18/2 wizard/monk, got all the sorc levels removed as I go, but when I go to remove the pally levels, it gives me the 4 class error.. which I am simply trying to remove one class for another. This bites something fierce and kinda removes the whole +20 idea to change the character outright if that is what we want.

    Other than that, smooth sailing along the rocks, ahoy!
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    I probably have 30 characters that will be affected by this, no exaggeration. Isnt there a better way? Off the top of my head maybe allow any number of classes while on boat, but don't allow off boat til down to 3. Or force them into a character creation screen where you can control how it will play out before they are let into the world to level.

    The order you take your classes in is vital to a characters skills, this enhancement pass is enough of a nerf already for some builds, this bug (tho no one else seems to be calling it that) makes it a nerf to many more builds that it otherwise would've been.
    I feel for you for having to redo all 30 of them. But really the only reason we got a LR+20, is so its even possible to change the builds to re-optimize them. All the talk about wanting to change out more than one character class - that is not about repairing a build - or re-optimizing it - that is about making a completely different build.
    Maybe understandably, if a build / class feels too nerfed now, but its not the purpose of the LR to enable that. The purpose was to help change class split lvl to fix things (or in some cases make a minor change to take say a cleric lvl instead of a FvS lvl or something). And for that the current (and well known) system works pretty well. I am glad we got a LR+20, honestly for many characters you won't even need a LR, and for another big part of the repairs a simple LR will do nicely.
    Only the more advanced builds really need to change more splits, and they are more often used by people who already know of the 3 class at a time limitation and have been working with that for years now.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eistander View Post
    Attempted to redo my 18/2 sorc/pally into an 18/2 wizard/monk, got all the sorc levels removed as I go, but when I go to remove the pally levels, it gives me the 4 class error.. which I am simply trying to remove one class for another. This bites something fierce and kinda removes the whole +20 idea to change the character outright if that is what we want.

    Other than that, smooth sailing along the rocks, ahoy!
    at what lvls did you take the original paladin ones Eistander? if you started out as a sorcerer and took them as the last lvls it should work as long as you first take out all the sorc. lvls for a wiz. and then change the paladin lvls to monk. (That would work for having say lvl 9-10 as a paladin as well.)

    if you started as a paladin and took the second lvl as last I guess you will need 2 LR+x to do it.

  19. #19
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    This is definitely something that's been raised (to change the process to put the three-class restriction at the end, rather than during, the process), but unfortunately cracking open reincarnation is a pretty risky task from a development standpoint, with the potential for some serious and numerous halo issues, and a decision was made to not do this at this time. It's possible that reincarnation could be adjusted to work around this current three-class issue in the future.
    Why worry about "breaking" the LR code just delete entirely and than use a slightly modified "Iconic" code and instead of remember the level order and what classes you had just have it remember the XP value we had and grant us that XP that way we can head to w/e trainer we feel like at our leisure.


    If that's way more complicated than my non-coder mind can comprehend please at least add these two features

    1) The game obviously records our level order please just tell us it at the beginning of the LR so we can plan it out better as there's currently no way to find out a level order unless recorded manually.

    2) At any point during the LR process allow us to start over in case we encounter "the bug" as well as a go back 1 level as well


    Question: Does having Epic levels still disallow a 3rd class and if it does does a Tri-Class build lose a class when they LR?
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  20. #20
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    Related, an alignment problem.
    Can you use your +20 stone in any way to change a bard into a monk?

    Say I have a 19 bard/1 fighter right now.
    -can i use the heart and take fighter at first level
    -then apply an alignment change (chaotic to lawful)
    -and then level up to 19 monk/1 fighter?

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