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  1. #21
    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WilliamBraveheart View Post
    Take weapon finesse feat and you can get dex to hit and damage with all light weapons i.e rapiers,Short swords
    I don't see the benefit of having a 15-20x2 Rapier when you can use a 15-20x3 Kukri or a 15-20x3 Dagger.

    Of course, there is one 15-20x3 Rapier, but there's also a certain dagger which matches that rapier, dpswise.
    Last edited by karl_k0ch; 08-25-2013 at 01:00 PM.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    2) AC... Just no.
    I hit 120 AC on my pure dex splashed rogue, and theres nothing negative about being able to solo EH quests and rarely being hit.

    It will be even better now with the new riposte weapons. It makes little sense to go as a str rogue unless you want to use larger weapons like Khopeshes, if you just stick with light weapons, then dex rogues are great now.

    You can also get dex bonus to damage with shortswords with either elf, or monk splash, or quarterstaffs if you want to use those.

    Quote Originally Posted by WilliamBraveheart View Post
    Take weapon finesse feat and you can get dex to hit and damage with all light weapons i.e rapiers,Short swords
    I wouldnt, its a wasted feat now when you can use enhancements to get the same bonus with daggers, kukris, quarterstaffs or even shortswords, and then you can take an additional different feat.
    Last edited by DDOisFree; 08-24-2013 at 07:34 AM.

  3. #23
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Although I would argue in favor of STR over DEX it is still practical for pure class characters to go with the DEX option. This is because they are not gaining extensively from the synergies of multiclassing so the gap between STR and DEX is relatively small.

    The only PrE for rogues wanting high DPS is still Assassin. The problem is that many of the ancillary abilities are found in the other trees. In particular, additional DEX enhancements can be obtained with careful planning -- something that might be useful to a DEX build in narrowing the gap with STR.

    Be careful if using weapons other than kukri/dagger via the Weapon Finesse option. I seem to recall an issue with Celestia because it is light damage and not piercing/slashing. I cannot recall if this applies exclusively to monks with Ninja Spy or if it also applies to rogues with Assassin.

    IMO Weapon Finesse is worth taking if you have access to Celestia or Balizarde.

    I also think that it is a tough call whether to go full blown INT for assassination DCs or to go DEX/STR and to ignore the assassination aspects of the Assassin PrE. Full blown INT builds end up losing a measurable amount of DPS if they are not able to assassinate -- something that is common in group situations where players tend to blitz through the content. It appears that this INT option is really only for dedicated players who are willing to invest highly in the character -- more now than before the pass.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post

    IMO Weapon Finesse is worth taking if you have access to Celestia or Balizarde.
    Unless youre an elf or have monk splash.

  5. #25
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    I'm in the Dex camp. Fringe benefits like AC and Reflex save do it for me, but Str is obviously by no means gimp and opens up more weapon choices.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    I also think that it is a tough call whether to go full blown INT for assassination DCs or to go DEX/STR and to ignore the assassination aspects of the Assassin PrE. Full blown INT builds end up losing a measurable amount of DPS if they are not able to assassinate -- something that is common in group situations where players tend to blitz through the content. It appears that this INT option is really only for dedicated players who are willing to invest highly in the character -- more now than before the pass.
    Interestingly on going Int, the new EE Storm Horns and Wheloon quests have pretty insane Search and Disable Device DCs. From testing, I know that EE Breaking the Ranks' Spell wards have either a 89 or 90 DC (88 fail, 90 success). My suspicion is 90 since it's a nice round number. Not that you need to disarm them since they're around the edges, but still. Other new traps might be similarly crazy, I haven't played any other EEs.

    Search also has insanely high requirements - I was on a max Int completionist with most things including a +20 search item and 3 Artificer PLs and I couldn't find all of the secret doors in EH Wheloon quests.

    Having said that:
    - I didn't have a +5 Enhanced Search item and am actually going to farm Power Play for Wolfinson's Monocular Enhancer which is the only item I know of with it.
    - I didn't have a GS +Int skills item, which will now be my next GS item.
    - I didn't take any skill boost enhancements because yuck.

    Point of this is that without a big int focus I'm not convinced it's possible to be a trapper in the highest tiers of play. Though, admittedly those items that would boost my search skill another 11 points which might be enough, and 11 skill points is basically 22 int which means non-int based rogues would be fine.

    If I'm only 1 or 2 search points off getting the secret doors, then anyone can be a trapper, it's just about gear. If I'm actually 5 or 10 points off, I think Int for trapping and secret doors should play into build decisions.

    TL;DR Trapping is harder now, but I'm not sure exactly how hard. If it's really hard then Int based rogues have another thing going for them.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    TL;DR Trapping is harder now, but I'm not sure exactly how hard. If it's really hard then Int based rogues have another thing going for them.
    Its not that hard. My rogue has 14 base int, maxed search / disable ranks and gear, and no enhancements or ED bonuses to trapping skills (grandmaster full of more saves twists, enhancements pure melee), and he still disarms traps on EE with a 1+71.

    Now I want to TR to a halfling though as I dont need pally dilly anymore due to being able to fit in 2 paladin levels instead.

  7. #27
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDOisFree View Post
    Its not that hard. My rogue has 14 base int, maxed search / disable ranks and gear, and no enhancements or ED bonuses to trapping skills (grandmaster full of more saves twists, enhancements pure melee), and he still disarms traps on EE with a 1+71.

    Now I want to TR to a halfling though as I dont need pally dilly anymore due to being able to fit in 2 paladin levels instead.
    Do you mind if I ask which quests? (i.e. Do you mean Wheloon and Storm Horns or just GH and old content?)

    It's totally possible that EE Breaking the Ranks does have anomalously difficult spell wards since they're optional.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    I'm in the Dex camp. Fringe benefits like AC and Reflex save do it for me, but Str is obviously by no means gimp and opens up more weapon choices.
    With all but one of the Improved Deception weapons being Kukris or daggers, there really is no other reason to use other weapons.

    The only weapon I can really think of being useful to use would be Celestia.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    With all but one of the Improved Deception weapons being Kukris or daggers, there really is no other reason to use other weapons.
    You mean, you don't need a bludgeon DR breaker? ... Actually, at least two (sets?), one Everbright for oozes and another aligned adamantine ghostbane or some such? Especially given that exactly those enemies tend to be immune to sneak attack anyway...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    The only weapon I can really think of being useful to use would be Celestia.
    ...well, OK, but what do you use for DR breaking until you get that?
    No longer completely f2p as of November 2014. Father of 3 more DDO players so far (I do have more children than that).

  10. #30
    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mna View Post
    You mean, you don't need a bludgeon DR breaker? ... Actually, at least two (sets?), one Everbright for oozes and another aligned adamantine ghostbane or some such? Especially given that exactly those enemies tend to be immune to sneak attack anyway...?



    ...well, OK, but what do you use for DR breaking until you get that?
    There's the option to spend a few points in the acrobat tree (there are interesting abilities anyway) and get Dex to hit and to damage for quarterstaffs. There's your undead and ooze beater.
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  11. #31
    Community Member Deathdefy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    With all but one of the Improved Deception weapons being Kukris or daggers, there really is no other reason to use other weapons.

    The only weapon I can really think of being useful to use would be Celestia.
    I feel weird defending it since I don't think Str is a good decision either but I had in mind EE Axes of Adaxus.

    Other stuff on the list would maybe be Mornh and Deathnip while levellings. I admit you have to Master's Touch scroll them or burn a feat (don't burn a feat, just use the scrolls), but if you want to be a strength rogue they're what I was thinking of.
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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by mna View Post
    You mean, you don't need a bludgeon DR breaker? ... Actually, at least two (sets?), one Everbright for oozes and another aligned adamantine ghostbane or some such? Especially given that exactly those enemies tend to be immune to sneak attack anyway...?



    ...well, OK, but what do you use for DR breaking until you get that?
    I was talking about lvl20 and up. Improved Deception weps and Celestia are "endgame" weapons. At their level, there are no oozes, skeletons, ghosts, or anything with any meaningful DR or attributes that would warrant the use of anything other than Agony/eMG or Celestias. You also have the Shadowdancer capstone (if you use SD) or Assassin's Trick (intelligent opponents only so not sure how useful it is) to remove Sneak Attack immunity.

    I exclusively shortman/solo so the Improved Deception is good for getting Sneak Attacks, but it's also able to spam bosses with deception which prevents them from attacking. It's good in groups, too.

    Prior to lvl20 though, yeah, there aren't many good general-pupose weapons unless you have a GS weapon. You pretty much just need a Q-staff for skeletons (use the Acrobat tree), everbright for rusties and oozes (these can be daggers/kukris/staffs) and something that deals good damage. Maybe Radiance weapons, too.

    DR breakers aren't as useful as they were. Not many people run devil raids anymore.

  13. #33
    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    At their level, there are no oozes, skeletons, ghosts, or anything with any meaningful DR or attributes that would warrant the use of anything other than Agony/eMG or Celestias.
    Both the Abbot and the Truthful One have a bludgeon DR.
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post
    TL;DR Trapping is harder now, but I'm not sure exactly how hard. If it's really hard then Int based rogues have another thing going for them.
    This has been my experience as well, EE Friends in Low Places had spell wards with ~88 disable and more search than I had. I have low int and am missing a lot of gear but trapping definitely got made more gear intensive, as for it being a trend going forward it's really hard to tell. Spellwards and bear traps don't punish you for critical failing to disable and so the DCs can be fairly high as all it means is it'll take longer to disable(if you're still on die of course) and you'll maybe take some damage if you have low skills. When we see some new trap boxes where crit failing and low search mean something we'll know where we stand, until then it's all speculation on how low you can go.

    As for crafting GS skill items you could probably just do a few EE Through a Mirror Darklys, Skullduggery Kits seem to drop fairly often and have +6 dex and int skills on them, the other thing I'll probably do is go buy a stack of find traps scrolls again.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by karl_k0ch View Post
    Both the Abbot and the Truthful One have a bludgeon DR.
    Celestias bypass their DR.

    At any rate, that is two enemies (one of them being in Ascension Chamber which is not ran often) where DEX-based is possibly at a disadvantage.

  16. #36
    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    Celestias bypass their DR.

    At any rate, that is two enemies (one of them being in Ascension Chamber which is not ran often) where DEX-based is possibly at a disadvantage.
    Yeah, I missed the DR-breaking potential of Celestia.

    In any case, even if there's no Celestia at hand, a Dex-build isn't lost.

    The the first two core abilities from Acrobat offer Dex to hit and Dex to damage with Quarterstaffs, making a triple positive QStaff a decent choice for fighting an undead boss every now and then.
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