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  1. #21
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    ive LR'd my druid into a pure bard. havent tested it yet but see some nice stuff with going high CHA.

    Frozen Fury has a 6 sec cooldown, freeze enemy ability. Duration is longer than 6 seconds (tested on dummy). Haven't tested it out yet in actual quest, but seems nice, like a stunning fist.

    I got stuck with draconic incarnation epic destiny so i thought my only exit was to roll a CHA bard. Was daunting it but after spending my enhancement points, actually pretty excited about it. Pure Bard doesn't feel gimp like it was before. You can have Spellsong Vigor, Sustaining song, Skalding Rage, Ironskin chant all at the same time!

    My only dilemma is the lack of ranged spells and ranged DPS going pure human, but I'm going for it. Pure Bard.

    I tried a 16bard/2fighter/2rogue and a 12bard/6ranger/2rogue and i enjoyed the 6ranger a lot more. I found the first lacking in the ranged department and the 6ranger had great synergy. I'm relying on my spells/charms to help me out in the ranged department this time around.

  2. #22
    Halfling Hero phalaeo's Avatar
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    I don't know about you guys, but I really like what they've given Bards since the pass.
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  3. #23
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    Bow Strength, Rapid Shot. Which means spending one feat slot to get Manyshot. I dropped caring about level 6 spells ages ago, which was why I ran my Warchanter as a 14 bard originally until MotU.
    I meant, why is rgr 3 / rog 2 / bard 15 better than rgr 2 / rog 2 / bard 16 (lvl 6 spells); or for that matter rgr 2 / rog 3 / bard 15 (+1d6 base SA, maybe another +1d6 from T3 SA Training)? It can't be for Diehard, can it? Is there some T3 rgr abilities you want?

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    IIUC, you need WF feat for Weapon Training enh; and you need Weapon Training for HotN. Have not tested to confirm, however.
    I could take Weapon Training enhancement, but it didn't do anything as far as increasing my multiplier. The only thing I could think of was that I would need to take WF for that weapon to be my "Trained Weapon".
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  5. #25
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    Default Horc Qstaff build

    Another way to go is a Horc Bard/Rogue using quarterstaffs. I TRed one of my bards to 16 bard / 3 rogue / 1 fighter (was 16b/2r/2f using khopeshs).

    Feats: Toughness / Max / Emp Healing / Quicken / Cleave / Great Cleave / IC:Blunt / PA
    Epic Feats: OC / Epic Toughness / Inspire Excellence

    With all songs & buffs, Dance of Flowers twisted in using the Stout Oak Walking Stick (hopefully Sireth in the future), he looks good, and will be even better when I can get him into Legendary Dreadnought. And I actually went with the SS tree, only 6 AP in WC.

    If it looks like he doesn't need the HP, I might swap the fighter level for 1 or 2 of cleric (Divine Might + Endless Turning twisted, plus maybe Toughness enh and/or Efficient Maximize), and drop the toughness feats.

  6. #26
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    I meant, why is rgr 3 / rog 2 / bard 15 better than rgr 2 / rog 2 / bard 16 (lvl 6 spells); or for that matter rgr 2 / rog 3 / bard 15 (+1d6 base SA, maybe another +1d6 from T3 SA Training)? It can't be for Diehard, can it? Is there some T3 rgr abilities you want?
    Sorry, was afk at work. Back now.

    In my experiences so far, Otto's isn't ideal for me to use in epic content. This is due to needing to invest in spell penetration. Any mob I would actually want to dance as opposed to killing outright has a fair amount of SR, meaning most of the time it won't land anyway. Hence, no reason to go there as SR isn't something I have or am willing to build for on a melee Bard.

    15bard/ranger2/rogue3 is pretty interesting as well. For a staff build that looks pretty nice. My Bard uses an ESOS/Cleaver/AGA.

    15bard/ranger3/rogue2 offers a better split in my musings so far. Slightly more hp (nominal). But more can be taken from the the Arcane Archer tree at 3 ranger. I forget the specifics, though I'll update if necessary when I get there. Haven't logged into the game just yet.

    But really, losing what I'd consider to be more versatility for Otto's is a trap the moment you start noting SR numbers. Unless one uses it exclusively on low to no SR trash mobs. Faster to just kill them imo. I thought originally you were questioning taking ranger levels at all, hence my original response.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    In my experiences so far, Otto's isn't ideal for me to use in epic content. This is due to needing to invest in spell penetration. Any mob I would actually want to dance as opposed to killing outright has a fair amount of SR, meaning most of the time it won't land anyway. Hence, no reason to go there as SR isn't something I have or am willing to build for on a melee Bard.

    But really, losing what I'd consider to be more versatility for Otto's is a trap the moment you start noting SR numbers. Unless one uses it exclusively on low to no SR trash mobs. Faster to just kill them imo.
    It's surprising how few mobs have meaningful SR. I don't build any spell pen on my melee bards, frequently run EE, yet rarely have a problem with resistance. But you have to consider the practical applications of OID. It CAN be resisted. It doesn't supplement damage outside of rendering a target immobile and helpless. It costs 35 mana, which on a melee bard (the majority of which will have <1000 total and need to conserve mana for haste/displacement and their expensive quickened/empowered heals) is not cheap.

    It's also never going to be the single target CC of choice on a Fury Bard... Adrenaline covers that base and then some in addition to being an effectively unlimited resource.

    Now we get to the real application of OID. It's not CC. It's recharging Adrenaline or building the Fury meter. While all else is Fascinated or Enthralled, it allows you to isolate one mob and kill them slowly and with zero risk. Black dragon armour, Grim Precision and Insult give you -45% enemy fortification. Throw in some seeker and exceptional seeker gear and (especially if you're TWF) you can regain Adrenaline with surprising rapidity and ease. I rarely gain less than 2 adrenaline on a single mob in this fashion. Hell, on occasion I've charged the entire Fury meter from scratch on just one mob!

    Of course, this all assumes you run in Fury. Though on a TWF Bard with Manyshot I find no compelling reason not to.
    Last edited by Neoxxz; 08-21-2013 at 02:27 AM.

  8. #28
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neoxxz View Post
    It's surprising how few mobs have meaningful SR. I don't build any spell pen on my melee bards, frequently run EE, yet rarely have a problem with resistance. But you have to consider the practical applications of OID. It CAN be resisted. It doesn't supplement damage outside of rendering a target immobile and helpless. It costs 35 mana, which on a melee bard (the majority of which will have <1000 total and need to conserve mana for haste/displacement and their expensive quickened/empowered heals) is not cheap.

    It's also never going to be the single target CC of choice on a Fury Bard... Adrenaline covers that base and then some in addition to being an effectively unlimited resource.

    Now we get to the real application of OID. It's not CC. It's recharging Adrenaline or building the Fury meter. While all else is Fascinated or Enthralled, it allows you to isolate one mob and kill them slowly and with zero risk. Black dragon armour, Grim Precision and Insult give you -45% enemy fortification. Throw in some seeker and exceptional seeker gear and (especially if you're TWF) you can regain Adrenaline with surprising rapidity and ease. I rarely gain less than 2 adrenaline on a single mob in this fashion. Hell, on occasion I've charged the entire Fury meter from scratch on just one mob!

    Of course, this all assumes you run in Fury. Though on a TWF Bard with Manyshot I find no compelling reason not to.
    That's a nice perspective you are sharing there. Thanks for that

    Elka is my only toon that has an ESOS so I'll likely let it go only if it were pried out of his cold, dead, hands. And you'd still have to deal with his ghost, lol.

    I am also building for crit machine mechanics, and his current weapons work pretty well that way in play. I did finally finish the LR, now regearing. Or, at least I was until the server kicked meh. I did go 15bard/3ranger/2rogue. Couldn't find a way to fit in lockpicking. But everything else looks really good. I'm liking being able to pull elemental imbues/force imbues and unlimited arrows. Healing amp is down a bit. Had to swap out of Medium Dragonscale to Light due to evasion requirements. A definite work in progress, but without a dex item he's at 40 for a reflex save, so I'm thinking I can reach low to mid 50's.

    I'll get back to work on it later today when the server is back up.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    Elka is my only toon that has an ESOS so I'll likely let it go only if it were pried out of his cold, dead, hands. And you'd still have to deal with his ghost, lol.
    Ah, missed that bit.

    So you're stacking OC, HotN etc and maybe went HO.

    If I had an ESOS on my bard I'd probably try the same thing!

  10. #30
    Community Member giftie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eecsman View Post
    With all songs & buffs, Dance of Flowers twisted in using the Stout Oak Walking Stick (hopefully Sireth in the future), he looks good, and will be even better when I can get him into Legendary Dreadnought. And I actually went with the SS tree, only 6 AP in WC.
    Wait, Dance of Flowers actually works without monk levels? I always assumed you had to have at least Monk 1 to be considered centered.

  11. #31
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    If you are not going to get inspire excellence I would go for 12 or 13 bard personally (have to look at spells). Go for 5 levels in a class so you can get tier 5 abilities in one of that class's enhancements and invest a lot into warchanter and some into spellsinger of course. If I had a heavy melee bard that is how I would go. I would also consider 15 bard 5 rogue or something like that although feats would be tight of course.

    People love to melee or range so much with their bards, but quite frankly level 20 heal bot bard is incredible this update. I have done a lot of ees either playing a level 20 bard heal bot bard or running with one and one can keep a party up easily, has better cc then a divine with enthrall/ottos irresistable (some have good disco ball cc, etc.), and has better buffs then a divine. Coccon/exalted angel ability, heal spell, decent mass cures, vigor, more spell points this update, etc. Bard healing is just plain old awesome right now. Last night throughout several of the quests in Whelon first time doing em on ee had 5 melee/ranged and 1 bard and it was easy peasy.
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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Go for 5 levels in a class so you can get tier 5 abilities in one of that class's enhancements and invest a lot into warchanter and some into spellsinger of course. If I had a heavy melee bard that is how I would go. I would also consider 15 bard 5 rogue or something like that although feats would be tight of course.
    Don't forget you can only get tier 5 abilities in a single prestige, so if you took those in a different class you couldn't get the really potent Warchanter stuff (spells in Medium armour, +2 hit/damage with all weapons, +1 crit multiplier on 19/20).

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    People love to melee or range so much with their bards, but quite frankly level 20 heal bot bard is incredible this update. I have done a lot of ees either playing a level 20 bard heal bot bard or running with one and one can keep a party up easily, has better cc then a divine with enthrall/ottos irresistable (some have good disco ball cc, etc.), and has better buffs then a divine. Coccon/exalted angel ability, heal spell, decent mass cures, vigor, more spell points this update, etc. Bard healing is just plain old awesome right now. Last night throughout several of the quests in Whelon first time doing em on ee had 5 melee/ranged and 1 bard and it was easy peasy.
    Healing bards were always viable.

    My first bard was a pure support Spellsinger, built for healing, and with the right setup could substitute a divine in most situations. Solo healed EE Tor, EE PoP (sans final fight), Elite Shroud, EH CiTW etc. Could also spec for spell damage running in Primal with Blue Dragon armour and twisting Energy Burst and Boulder Toss. The biggest deficiency was a single target nuke heal; maximized, empowered CCW just didn't cut the mustard. If I was still playing a support Bard, I'd be very excited about the addition of Heal to the spell roster, not to mention the easily achievable 40% heal spell crit (which effectively renders Renewal and Cocoon fire-and-forget full bar heals).

    Overall, I think Bards have received a tremendous buff with the latest patch and are far more interesting, flexible, powerful and versatile than ever before. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a lot more of them!

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by giftie View Post
    Wait, Dance of Flowers actually works without monk levels? I always assumed you had to have at least Monk 1 to be considered centered.
    Nope, you don't need monk levels, you just need to qualify as centered (no armor, no shield, monk weapons). I verified this on live and on Lamannia in the dojo before I TRed. And a ki bar looks really weird on a bard, when you're leveling up GMoF.

  14. #34
    Halfling Hero phalaeo's Avatar
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    Ooooooh, how did I miss that WC now allows access to Sprint Boost?!?!

    Wheeeeee, fast bard!
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  15. #35
    Community Member Shinjiteru's Avatar
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    Did warchanter dps get really that much buffed?(especially when taking in account that most other melee toons dps got buffed too) Just asking because for me it seems they broke the warchanter. Most groups/players only liked warchanters because of the better +damage of inspire courage and that is something a spellsinger is as good as a warchanter now, unless you are pure bard warchanter and +1 damage isn't that exciting anymore today.
    Yeah warchanters can also toss a heal scroll or cures when needed but that's nothing you need to be warchanter, every bard can do that.

    So why would a group take a warchanter now even if already a spellsinger bard is in party? Am I the only one who thinks warchanters are broken when comparing them to what spellsingers can get now?
    Why would a group accept a warchanter bard if a spellsinger is already present instead of taking another plain dps?
    And if even a bard player has problems answering these question how are most other players looking at a warchanter bard now... :S
    I know it's always nice to have an addition player who can toss a heal or help raising if needed, but in many cases having a real dps toon would help much more to prevent situations where you need these abilities. And yeah my warchanter bard preU19 was lacking much dps compared to my barb and monk and since barb and monk got buffed dps wise I doubt warchanter bard is getting much closer to them.

    When they first announced the enhancement pass I was hoping to get a viable option to go pure bard as warchanter, and if I look at what the enhancement pass gave us... it seems I should even splash more levels than before, because going healing spellsinger is not an option for me.

    Was thinking about 16bard/4fighter for the weapon group specialization line. My main 'problem' is that because of his equipment he has to stick with thf. Probably going to end up with TRing him into a PDK with next update, then I can go pure charisma with thf line and make use of frozen fury ability. Splitting 2ranger/rogue sounds interesting too, but with such a split I would think that twf would be better.

  16. #36
    Community Member JasonJi72's Avatar
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    Otto's is great when it works, and it works quite often. I have taken less than 16 bard before, but will probably never do it again. As has been previously stated, you usually want at least level 15, but the real reason I always take 16 bard can be summed up in three words... Mass Cure Mod.

    I kinda agree with Shinjiteru, but I am biased. All my Bards have been Virtuoso for the past couple years. That Crit multiplier does look tempting though...

    Play what you want, and have fun doing it!
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