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  1. #1
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Default If raiding is dead...

    ...and greensteel sux so bad (or so I hear), why are there so many Shroud runs?

    I can't find a LoB run half of the time, VoD and Hox are rarities these days (though I was on a VoD run this evening), but it seems you can ALWAYS find a Shroud run being posted. And there is no other reason to run Shroud except for mats.

    And the mats basically make Greensteel, which is pretty much dead by the time you hit lvl 20 (which is usually when you have enough materials to make your greensteel item).

    So...explanations anyone?

  2. #2
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    ...and greensteel sux so bad (or so I hear), why are there so many Shroud runs?

    I can't find a LoB run half of the time, VoD and Hox are rarities these days (though I was on a VoD run this evening), but it seems you can ALWAYS find a Shroud run being posted. And there is no other reason to run Shroud except for mats.

    And the mats basically make Greensteel, which is pretty much dead by the time you hit lvl 20 (which is usually when you have enough materials to make your greensteel item).

    So...explanations anyone?
    It's very very nice tr twink gear.

  3. #3
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    It's very very nice tr twink gear.
    And the displacement clickies, don't forget those. (Oh, and haste as well, I guess)

  4. #4
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    Easier to craft than LoB ********. Easier to access altars. Just as powerful for any class other than Monk.
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  5. #5
    Community Member relenttless's Avatar
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    Its not rocket surgery.........

    Raiding isn't dead - just 80% of it is, and The Shroud falls into the 20% that is still staggering along- just.

    Although there are a fair few Shroud LFM's compared to most other raids (with the exception of Citw, fot, and perhaps Dq) there are nowhere near the quantity there once was, 18 months ago they were quite literally appearing every 5 minutes like buses, if you missed one Shroud you joined another.

    Now there might be one an hour if you are lucky, and that will be hard or elite.

    Anyway, Instead of raiding folk now are locked into endlless tr'ing, and as was pointed out above,Greensteel doesn't "suk" (sic) it is probably the best gear and/or weapons available for tring.

    Go figure (as I believe my American friends would say).
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  6. #6
    Community Member Hawklynn's Avatar
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    I like the Shroud because I've ran it so many times, I can run that quest on auto-pilot. Some days when I log into DDO and I am not sure yet what I want to do in the game, I'll join a Shroud. I can then think of things I need to do in RL while my toon runs through each phase, and I don't have to be fully focused within the Shroud. It appears most Shrouds I've run everyone just knows the drill and finishes with no probs, even on Elites today.

    I tried to go on auto-pilot once in a LoB and I just ran off into the blue water ... and then got caught in the rain ('blame it on the rain' .. somehow had Milly Vanilly pop in my mind here.)
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  7. #7
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by relenttless View Post
    Its not rocket surgery.........

    Raiding isn't dead - just 80% of it is, and The Shroud falls into the 20% that is still staggering along- just.

    Although there are a fair few Shroud LFM's compared to most other raids (with the exception of Citw, fot, and perhaps Dq) there are nowhere near the quantity there once was, 18 months ago they were quite literally appearing every 5 minutes like buses, if you missed one Shroud you joined another.

    Now there might be one an hour if you are lucky, and that will be hard or elite.

    Anyway, Instead of raiding folk now are locked into endlless tr'ing, and as was pointed out above,Greensteel doesn't "suk" (sic) it is probably the best gear and/or weapons available for tring.

    Go figure (as I believe my American friends would say).
    So true.

    I actually liked raiding it was cool to have 11 other people to chat with now its.........rush rush rush grind EDs till eyes bleed.........rush rush rush through 1-20 tr.........people seem to talk and socialise a lot less now......it still happens but it almost feels like we are robots compared to what it use to be like.

  8. #8
    Community Member Daine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    And the mats basically make Greensteel, which is pretty much dead by the time you hit lvl 20

    So...explanations anyone?
    As many stoneskin clickies as you want is a powerful incentive if you can't cast it, same goes for haste, displacement, and of course it's just rude not to make the effort to get a few raise dead clickies to bring the party cleric back when the need arises. There's a deep sense of satisfaction when your pure fighter resses the Cleric after not being a total mana drain because you're running with stoneskin, hasted, displaced when it gets tough and chugging pots between battles. Greensteel is far from dead, for my toons at least it borders on mandatory from level 11 all the way to level cap!

    ...and as the others say great for twinking. When you hit level 11/12 on your first TR, if you weren't feeling godlike before, you do when you load up on Greensteel. I feel my toons salivating for it when they hit level 10, that level is just a blur of "hurry up and get me ma greensteel dammit!"

    Also if you can find the extra rare Shroud Elite PuG at level, that's more of a challenge than most EE raids!

    Love the Shroud, still having fun running it.

  9. #9
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    Raids are run in proportion with how useful the rewards are. People are constantly re-making their greensteel as they upgrade gear. Others are trying to get a 2nd accessory for TRing.

    Although shroud gear isn't as good at endgame as it used to be, I can still make room for a conc opposition accessory on all my toons relying on sp. I don't have any toons using gs weapons at end game except for the occasional swap out to triple positive weapons against undead. That's still a good undead better even at 25 (and maybe even 28). I can't think of any other greater disruptions off the top of my head.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post

    And the mats basically make Greensteel, which is pretty much dead by the time you hit lvl 20 (which is usually when you have enough materials to make your greensteel item).
    TOD ring extras
    Displacement clickies
    haste clickies
    Concord op
    +whatever stat skill items
    raise dead clickies

    edit: oh and triple pos whatever for your weapon of choice undead beater is still quite nice.
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  11. #11
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    I have to disagree with many of the points made here about the greensteel items, though I agree with you on their face that they are decent clickies, good TR gear, and so on. The problem I have is that this doesn’t explain the number of Shroud runs that continue to fill and run consistently.

    The problem is timing. Greensteel has been around for a while. So, the people who are TR-focused pretty much have the gear that they need for their next several lives by the time their second or third life rolls around. After a while, the need for TR gear is going to diminish, and Shroud runs should drop off dramatically.

    But this isn’t the case. It seems to be one of the more consistently-run raids in the game (or at least on my server). And virtually no one runs it for XP anymore (again, at least not on my server).

    But, to be honest, most greensteel items are reduced to clickies. After lvl 20, they cannot compete with much of the gear coming out in the epic levels, at least for its intended use.

    I agree that is it a fun run where if you’ve got some 40+ completions, you usually run on autopilot. I also think that it is a raid – like eChrono – that is new-player friendly. But I don’t think people run it for greensteel anymore.

  12. #12
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    Nothing is stopping you from 2, 3 - 5 man it on elite for fun ( oh yeah ! ) either.
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  13. #13
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Most of the people playing the game arent jaded vets who have hundreds of runs under their belt anymore. The gear is still relevant for people who enjoy playing the entire game rather than camping at epic levels and only playing end game. 45 HP items are still relevant even at endgame. Displacement clickies, raise clickies, and stoneskin clickies are still nice. When leveling a caster, 2x conc op and a torc makes it hilariously easy. Toss in some bramble casters....those arent archers, they are batteries for the mana recharging machine.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  14. #14
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I have to disagree with many of the points made here about the greensteel items, though I agree with you on their face that they are decent clickies, good TR gear, and so on. The problem I have is that this doesn’t explain the number of Shroud runs that continue to fill and run consistently.

    The problem is timing. Greensteel has been around for a while. So, the people who are TR-focused pretty much have the gear that they need for their next several lives by the time their second or third life rolls around. After a while, the need for TR gear is going to diminish, and Shroud runs should drop off dramatically.

    But this isn’t the case. It seems to be one of the more consistently-run raids in the game (or at least on my server). And virtually no one runs it for XP anymore (again, at least not on my server).

    But, to be honest, most greensteel items are reduced to clickies. After lvl 20, they cannot compete with much of the gear coming out in the epic levels, at least for its intended use.

    I agree that is it a fun run where if you’ve got some 40+ completions, you usually run on autopilot. I also think that it is a raid – like eChrono – that is new-player friendly. But I don’t think people run it for greensteel anymore.
    Well I think part of it is that there are a fair few new people who need to get greensteel. Also I know in a lot of the groups I was in this weekend many players were running it for shards to make items for new or older Alts that were missing it.

    Some Greensteel weapons still hold up well at endgame though. For Heavy Repeaters and Bow users there aren't many options and greensteel is a solid choice for them. Hell my capped Arty still uses his LIT II heavy repeater more often than not.

    I know that with some of the changes coming in the enhancement pass there will be some fairly decent options for bow users so I ground out the shards I needed for a LIT II on my Arcane Archer.

    I did notice that probably half the toons in any given run were first lifers and that is a lot more than usual so it could just be a rush to get some of it done before we start seeing the changes today's update will bring.


  15. #15
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Actually there are still people who do run this raid for the soul purpose of acquiring TR Gear or Clickies for their Epic Travels (Clickies being only Tier II required)

    GS items Like Con-Op are still very useful in higher levels depending on the class - Such as a Melee style with Spell Points. It becomes less useful for characters that want to avoid being hit in Epic Difficulties. Additionally many people are also updating their characters with more useful items after discovering a deficiency in their characters abilities - IE more Displacement clickies. Also you will see people who put in the 20 Runs for a cleanser or +3 tome chance as there are some that do not enjoy the Epic Levels

    I also believe we will see people potentially returning to make their Greensteel more useful with U19 since the Exceptional Skill no longer stacks and the amounts have been doubled. Some will be coming to farm for the ingredient to deconstruct GS, and some will be coming for the Shards of Power to build new versions.

    Next, GS Weapons are also good "Cross-Over" weapons between Heroic and Epic Levels. While not as powerful as their epic counterparts, they can serve as decent weapons until a better Epic Weapon is available.

    Next, Shroud Raid is actually easy to teach and easy to learn. It is broken into 5 phases and can be "paused" between phases to give instructions. Chronoscope is very similar in that each part can be broken into small phases and you can take time between each phase to discuss the next part. Neither of these raids require a specific mix of characters or would be a guaranteed failure without a specific class/skill/ability even for first time groups.

    MA and LOB raids got an early reputation of being difficult. Personally I think it was undeserved, but by doing so it meant fewer people "Learned" to run these raids. It can take 15 to 25 runs to get enough ingredients to make the weapon/shield you are after. Which is a bit more effort then a GS weapon, but can be worth it. The problem is that with the Underdark expansion it is easier to get a random item that is almost as good. And to many people the effort vs reward just isn't there, especially since a fully upgraded tier III Alchemical item is ML 20.

    Another point to make is that most complaints about Raids being dead come from those that "have" everything they could want from a Raid and are looking for the "Next" raid to drive them. For some raids it is easy to get to that point of having everything you want, especially when it offers nothing for your character to benefit from.

  16. #16
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    But I don’t think people run it for greensteel anymore.
    And you are wrong.

    Other than blue-moon occasions raids are run for loot. Shroud still has some useful loot.

    I'm running it on a few of my toons as they need cleansing stones so I can move HP items.

  17. #17
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Most of the people playing the game arent jaded vets who have hundreds of runs under their belt anymore. The gear is still relevant for people who enjoy playing the entire game rather than camping at epic levels and only playing end game. 45 HP items are still relevant even at endgame. Displacement clickies, raise clickies, and stoneskin clickies are still nice. When leveling a caster, 2x conc op and a torc makes it hilariously easy. Toss in some bramble casters....those arent archers, they are batteries for the mana recharging machine.
    Triple-positive hammers/mauls are the BEST FOT beaters in the game and that is the current "it" raid.

    Displacement clickies are invaluable.

    Greensteel weapons are still great until you can get CiTW gear and nobosy runs LOB any more.

    Nothing replaced a GD HP item, though it's need is debatable.

    And it's still a fun raid with nice flagging quests and no annoying run up to get there.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    And to many people the effort vs reward just isn't there, especially since a fully upgraded tier III Alchemical item is ML 20.
    If the devs changed Alchemical weapons to ML 16, there would be a lot more LoBs around, because TR junkies would find the weapons useful. A T1 Alchemical (ML 16) is barely on par with GS (Martial Earth is a good CC one). T2 is above GS weaponry, but requires a LOT of LoB runs (Maybe unworthy for a 2-level weapon), and you don't get a slot until T3 (ML 20), and by there, most TR people just farm tokens and go back to Khortos.

    Other option would be giving the blanks a red slot (purple for shields), and changing T3 martial to a orange slot. That way, even a T1 could be above GS by having double metal properties, and worth the run.
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  19. #19
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Ok, well some of the points being made - aside from the clickies - run contrary to just about every other GS post I've seen on these forums. That, aside from TR-ing, GS is outdated, useless, etc.

    Good to note about the 3x POS item.

    Could it also be that Vale is one of THE most popular quest packs out there? Because it also seems that a Vale S/R/E and Vale quests are a staple for PUGs.

  20. #20
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Oh yeah, and I'll probably never ever build an alchemical weapon. You cannot get anyone on G-Land to start a LoB or MA run. It is pointless.

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