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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    The other thing Carnifex has going for it is double the usual crit range of a greataxe, which makes it 17-20 x3; whereas a regular keen g.axe is 19-20 x3. So even after picking up IC:Slash, it's still a pretty nice DPS weapon until you gain access to better higher-lvl options. Whirlwind is nice in part b/c it has the crit profile of a falchion (18-20 x2) but the higher base dmg of a greatsword. SOS is still the Holy Grail of 2H weapons, but it's not exactly realistic to expect to pick it up right away.
    Makes sense. I'm sure the math works out as favorable for Carnifex. I'm enjoying Whirlwind's knockdown effect as well. I suspect it loses some effectiveness as you level, of course, but it's a decent added bonus.

    Boosting Exalted Smite isn't so much about reducing the CD as it's about boosting the crit dmg. Tier 1 is +1 crit multiplier; tier 2 is +1 crit range; tier 3 is +2 crit multiplier & range. Ofc, if APs are tight, you have to prioritize where to spend them.
    Reading comprehension failure on my part. I suspect the better move is to then just ignore the 11 change and work in the 12, because I still think Improved Courage of Heaven is worth having, and dropping the points into Exalted Smite rather than extra turns/disease covers the requirements for Sealed Life.

  2. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by Corwynn_Maelstrom View Post
    Makes sense. I'm sure the math works out as favorable for Carnifex. I'm enjoying Whirlwind's knockdown effect as well. I suspect it loses some effectiveness as you level, of course, but it's a decent added bonus.
    My paladin was my first character, so he has a lit2 falchion he equips at 12 and keeps until around 22, meaning he's not a great blueprint in terms of weapons.

    My kensei warpriest, however, is essentially the same character as this pally in terms of gear and he has no fancy vet weapons. The last two of his lives I've used the same weapon progression and have been super happy with the scaling:

    1-3: crafted Flaming of Bleed greatsword
    4-7: Carnifex
    8-9: Sword of the Thirty w/ML8 Devotion
    10-11: Whirlwind w/ML8 Devotion
    12-15: Whirlwind w/ML12 Devotion
    16-17: Whirlwind w/ML16 Devotion
    18-19: Whirlwind w/ML16 Acid damage
    20+: Epic Antique Greataxe

    That whirlwind is just crazy good, being my preferred weapon from 10 all the way through 19. (18; I don't take 19.) The reason I switch out the devotion at 18 is because that's when I equip the Secrets of the Artificers gear. Specifically:

    Fabricator's Gauntlets
    Fabricator's Bracers
    Alchemist's Pendant
    Alchemist's Crown
    Cannith Boots of Propulsion

    Once I equip Alchemist's Crown I no longer need devotion on my weapon, at which point I switch to DPS with an acid augment. Last life I farmed up an ML16 Cormyrian greatsword with paralyzing and disintegrate, which works quite well for paralyzing mobs so I switched to that over Whirlwind, but Whirlwind is noticeably better DPS and still brought out for boss fights.

    dropping the points into Exalted Smite rather than extra turns/disease covers the requirements for Sealed Life.
    The only reason I take the extra diseases is for Greater Restoration, which is kind of redundant when you get sealed life but still nice to have. Extra turns are very nice for divine might.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    That whirlwind is just crazy good...
    I've been happy with it, even with just the boring 1-3 shock augment which was available. I can see why you have a bunch of them.

    The only reason I take the extra diseases is for Greater Restoration, which is kind of redundant when you get sealed life but still nice to have.
    Most I've ended up taking between rests is two negative levels, so the 5 casts has been plenty. It is a very nice ability, to be sure.

    Extra turns are very nice for divine might.
    Particularly with Divine Might not actually extending duration. Has that been bugged for a long time, I wonder?

  4. #104
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    I did just notice the why of no Improved Courage of Heaven in the plan. It's not req level 12, it's Paladin 12. So it totally works at the higher level, just not before.

    I ended up respeccing in light of Divine Might not working correctly and grabbed Strength. (Two wasted points seems silly.)
    Last edited by Corwynn_Maelstrom; 02-08-2014 at 02:56 AM.

  5. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by Corwynn_Maelstrom View Post
    I did just notice the why of no Improved Courage of Heaven in the plan. It's not req level 12, it's Paladin 12. So it totally works at the higher level, just not before.
    The build as written takes it at 15, the moment it's available.

    I ended up respeccing in light of Divine Might not working correctly and grabbed Strength. (Two wasted points seems silly.)
    I'm not sure what you mean. Does your divine might not last 2:00? Mine did last time I played my paladin. I'll go verify mine still lasts 2:00 if yours isn't working.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corwynn_Maelstrom View Post
    I've been happy with it, even with just the boring 1-3 shock augment which was available. I can see why you have a bunch of them.
    I only have one; I just change the augment as I level. Buying the 12 & 16 augments from the gianthold vendors is dirt cheap so I don't consider picking those up a hardship. The ML8 devotion augments, however, are kind of pricey.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    The build as written takes it at 15, the moment it's available.
    Yes. I meant at 12. That's where my confusion came in initially.

    I'm not sure what you mean. Does your divine might not last 2:00? Mine did last time I played my paladin. I'll go verify mine still lasts 2:00 if yours isn't working.
    Absolutely. Mine only lasts 30 seconds. On screen buff timer and on the character sheet. That's why I respeced to take double strength. It put my mod up to 7, and I'd rather have a steady 7 than a couple extra casts of a 30 second buff that will take me to 8. With a 2 minute timer I could keep it up all the time. 30 seconds and it's just not worth it. (I just cast it for big fights now, like haste and attack.)

    I only have one; I just change the augment as I level. Buying the 12 & 16 augments from the gianthold vendors is dirt cheap so I don't consider picking those up a hardship. The ML8 devotion augments, however, are kind of pricey.
    Ah, I wasn't aware they were available from a vendor. I'll have to look into that! In any case, I don't stress an immense amount over the devotion since I run with a cleric hireling 100% of the time. (Except when it has done something stupid and gotten killed in an impossible to recover location.
    Last edited by Corwynn_Maelstrom; 02-08-2014 at 05:55 PM.

  7. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by Corwynn_Maelstrom View Post
    Absolutely. Mine only lasts 30 seconds. On screen buff timer and on the character sheet. That's why I respeced to take double strength. It put my mod up to 7, and I'd rather have a steady 7 than a couple extra casts of a 30 second buff that will take me to 8. With a 2 minute timer I could keep it up all the time. 30 seconds and it's just not worth it. (I just cast it for big fights now, like haste and attack.)
    I've been lazily TRing this guy for the past week, up to level 7 now. I'm doing a different variant, actually, going 15/5 pally/rogue to become a sireth acrobat build with full trapping skills. That's neither here nor there, though.

    I took divine might 1 as my first enhancement at level 6, slotted into my hotbar, and got the standard 30 seconds. I took divine might 2 as my second level 6 enhancement and it still only gave me 30 seconds. So I dragged the icon off my hotbar and made a new one with the enhancement from my character sheet, and that new one properly gives me the full 1 minute I should get on rank 2.

    You might try that to see if you can make it give you the proper 2 minutes. It's really quite nice getting cha mod to strength for 2 minutes at a time.

    EDIT: I have to say, I quite like the +1d6 vs evil mobs at such a low level, but I sure do miss kensei haste boost. (I could take it from the rogue tree but I decided not to bother until I switch to staves at 23.)

    Spamming cleave and great cleave and ignoring divine sacrifice entirely I'm mowing down the heroic elites for bravery. I'm true soloing (no hire) but I am dragging along a dual-box elite opener to get the opener credit for elite. I leave her at the start of each quest so she doesn't do anything but add scaling for two players.

    Even with scaling, I'm finding hires entirely unnecessary. Getting 4 Lay On Hands at level 3 is just insanely OP, especially when you combine in a dozen or two cure lights @ ~11 hit points each. I've used a grand total of 16 cure serious pots and 2 shrines so far this entire life, and I've run every quest in the game on elite for levels 1 through 4. (Just finished taking 7 and equipping my ML7 gear.) Maybe half of those cure serious pots were used in a single quest: Proof is in the Poison. It's been so long since I ran that without nightshield; gah!

  8. #108
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    So I dragged the icon off my hotbar and made a new one with the enhancement from my character sheet, and that new one properly gives me the full 1 minute I should get on rank 2.

    You might try that to see if you can make it give you the proper 2 minutes. It's really quite nice getting cha mod to strength for 2 minutes at a time.
    Ever since the E-Pass (U19?) I have had to do this with ALL active enhancements for all classes. So for pally that includes divine sacrifice, exalted smite, etc. The hotbar shortcuts do not automatically detect the upgrade, so you have to repleace them.

  9. #109
    Community Member Drathsiddh's Avatar
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    Just a questions. Would it be worth dropping, say, Dex to 10 and putting the points into Int? I mean one extra skill point would mean you can go int Search, Disable Device, Concentration and half rank into Heal and Open Lock. Wouldn't trapping be better for a new player over a mere +1 Ref save? As it is we get Divine Grace.....

  10. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drathsiddh View Post
    Just a questions. Would it be worth dropping, say, Dex to 10 and putting the points into Int? I mean one extra skill point would mean you can go int Search, Disable Device, Concentration and half rank into Heal and Open Lock. Wouldn't trapping be better for a new player over a mere +1 Ref save? As it is we get Divine Grace.....
    The build as written gets 3 skill points per level. Your suggestion of adding 2 int makes 4 points, which is only enough for search and disable with no other ranks to spend on any skills. (As cross-class skills they cost two points per rank.) Concentration and umd are both quite useful and worth maxing.

    Also, new players need spot to be a trapper. Without spot you're getting hit by the trap anyway, so may as well just run through it after you trigger it and not bother to disable it.

  11. #111
    Community Member Drathsiddh's Avatar
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    The build as written gets 3 skill points per level. Your suggestion of adding 2 int makes 4 points, which is only enough for search and disable with no other ranks to spend on any skills. (As cross-class skills they cost two points per rank.) Concentration and umd are both quite useful and worth maxing.

    Also, new players need spot to be a trapper. Without spot you're getting hit by the trap anyway, so may as well just run through it after you trigger it and not bother to disable it.
    Good point, but:
    Isnt Search, Disable Device and Spot part of the rouge skill list? So wont it be considderd a Pally skill?
    You could also drop Dex to 8, so 5 skill points per paladin/fighter level is enough for Search, Spot, Disacle Device, Open Lock, Umd
    Last edited by Drathsiddh; 03-26-2014 at 04:42 AM.

  12. #112
    Community Member fmalfeas's Avatar
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    It won't add the skills to the paladin skill list, it will only remove the cap on them. They'll still cost double during all non-rogue levels.

  13. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drathsiddh View Post
    Good point, but:
    Isnt Search, Disable Device and Spot part of the rouge skill list? So wont it be considderd a Pally skill?
    You could also drop Dex to 8, so 5 skill points per paladin/fighter level is enough for Search, Spot, Disacle Device, Open Lock, Umd
    Sadly no. They are always cross class skills during paladin levels, costing two points per full rank. In any case, as written, 32pt builds only have two dex points to move to int, which caps them at 4 skill points. I wouldn't want to pull points out of cha, str, or con to pump int up further. But even if you had 5 skill points to spend, it costs 4 points to raise search and disable device one rank each. That leaves one point left and a whole bunch of skill points worth taking. (UMD, concentration, heal, and spot if you're a trapper.)

    As I mentioned a few posts up, I TRed this guy into a 15/5 pally/rogue acrobat using sireth. I'm able to give him full search, disable device and open lock in addition to full ranks in concentration, umd and 15 ranks in heal because:

    1) It's a legend build (36pt) so I was able to start with 14 int by swapping dex and int
    2) I have an int tome from a previous life to kick in at level 7. (It's actually a +4, but +2 would be sufficient.)
    3) I take five rogue levels, which allows me to play "catch-up" with the skill points

    Even with all that I still had to dump spot. It's just not reasonable to go for full trapping on a first life paladin with only three rogue levels without tomes.

    Heck, even with five rogue levels, unbongwah ran into skill point problems with his Knight of the Holy Stick build, which is essentially a 15/5 acrobat similar to my current life. The key difference is that his build uses staffs all life, meaning he had to frontload the rogue levels. After level 13 he doesn't spend a single point in trapping skills, meaning he ends with 16 ranks maximum.

    I'm able to get full ranks in most everything I want by backloading the rogue levels (I take them at 1, 8, 14, 17, 20, compared to his 1, 4, 7, 10, 13.) I can do this because I don't use any quarterstaff at all until sireth at 23, instead sticking with falchions I collected over the past couple lives. (Risia of pure good for the early levels, then a lit2 from 12 until sireth.)

    In short, trapping on a paladin is extremely difficult. I wouldn't want to attempt it without at least being on a third life (36pt) with a +2 int tome eaten during a previous life.

    For the curious, here's the skills table I'm using for my current life:
    Code:
            O   P   P   P   P   P   P   O   P   P   P   P   P   O   P   P   O   P   P   O   
            1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20   
           -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Concent 2   1   1   1   1   1   2       2   2   1   1   1       2   1       2   1   1   23
    Heal    2                                       1   1   1       1   4       1   4       15
    UMD     4                           7                       6           3           3   23
    Disable 4   1   1   1   1   1   1   1   1   1   1   1   1   1   1       2   1       2   23
    Search  4   1   1   1   1   1   1   1   1   1   1   1   1   1   1   1   1   1   1   1   23
    Spot    4                                                                                4
    Op Lock 4                           3                       4           7           5   23
    Balance 4                                                                                4
    Jump    4                                                                                4
    Haggle  4                                                                                4
    Swim    3                                                                                3
    Tumble  1                                                                                1
           -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
           44   5   5   5   5   5   6  12   6   6   6   6   6  12   7   7  13   7   7  13
    <End of table>
    (I use "O" for rogue levels because "R" is taken by ranger. The excel macro I wrote to calculate the "total ranks" row at the bottom needs them to be different for my tempest trapmonkey, who takes both rogue and ranger levels.)

  14. #114
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    How's this build been doing? Any major changes?

    I am usually melee first and anything else (blue bar) way 2nd, but this seems like a good bet for increasing survivability.

    Couple questions - what did you end up for HP?

    I like the Kensei line - what do you think about taking 6 Ftr or even 12?

    12Ftr/6Pal/2Rog

    or

    12Pal/6Ftr/2Rog

    (randomly curious about using 2 Artificer instead, but can't make the skill points work out to a full UMD and do anything else useful).

    There are plenty with monk, but very few with Rog. I still haven't given up on UMD and I don't really like Monk.

    5 extra feats going from Ftr 2 to 12
    Can get 2nd core enhancements, etc

    Thoughts about taking more pure melee?

    quick version via generator

    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.20.02
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Paly_UMD 
    Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
    (12 Fighter \ 6 Paladin \ 2 Rogue) 
    Hit Points: 302
    Spell Points: 130 
    BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
    Fortitude: 19
    Reflex: 13
    Will: 8
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (34 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             16                    21
    Dexterity            12                    12
    Constitution         16                    16
    Intelligence         12                    12
    Wisdom                8                     8
    Charisma             14                    14
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills         Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
    Balance               5                     7
    Bluff                 2                     2
    Concentration         3                     5
    Diplomacy             2                     2
    Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
    Haggle                2                     2
    Heal                 -1                     6
    Hide                  4                     4
    Intimidate            6                    25
    Jump                  7                     9
    Listen                3                     3
    Move Silently         5                     5
    Open Lock             5                    13
    Perform               n/a                   n/a
    Repair                1                     1
    Search                5                     5
    Spellcraft            1                     1
    Spot                  3                     3
    Swim                  3                     5
    Tumble                2                     2
    Use Magic Device      6                    25
    
    Level 1 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Human Bonus) Cleave
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Barbarian
    Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
    
    
    Level 2 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 3 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Stunning Blow
    Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting
    
    
    Level 4 (Fighter)
    
    
    Level 5 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 6 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave
    
    
    Level 7 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting
    
    
    Level 8 (Fighter)
    
    
    Level 9 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 10 (Fighter)
    
    
    Level 11 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Critical
    
    
    Level 12 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting
    
    
    Level 13 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 14 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Deity) Follower of the Sovereign Host
    
    
    Level 15 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Magical Training
    
    
    Level 16 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 17 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 18 (Paladin)
    Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
    
    
    Level 19 (Paladin)
    
    
    Level 20 (Rogue)

  15. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jhaeran View Post
    I like the Kensei line - what do you think about taking 6 Ftr or even 12?
    It's probably fine. I have a different character who is a 12/8 fighter/cleric. So for me personally, I wouldn't take more than a couple fighter levels on this build because that's a different character I already have.

    I'm back to epic levels now with this guy, having switched him to a 15/5 pally/rogue staff build using sireth. Still not high enough level to equip sireth yet so I haven't actually swung a staff at all so far this life. But man, this life was ridiculously fun.

  16. #116
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jhaeran View Post
    (randomly curious about using 2 Artificer instead, but can't make the skill points work out to a full UMD and do anything else useful).
    Yeah probably not much synergy there, plus it would no longer be an evasion paladin at that point.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    It's probably fine. I have a different character who is a 12/8 fighter/cleric. So for me personally, I wouldn't take more than a couple fighter levels on this build because that's a different character I already have.

    I'm back to epic levels now with this guy, having switched him to a 15/5 pally/rogue staff build using sireth. Still not high enough level to equip sireth yet so I haven't actually swung a staff at all so far this life. But man, this life was ridiculously fun.
    Now that I'm back this seems fun too Still either going to try the evasion pally or battlerager I think.

  18. #118
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    Guys - I just turned level 14 on this build - I am wearing the light armor Silken Mail from Demon Sands, And I have the Black Dragon scales to turn in for the level 14 Black dragon Armor. Should I go with the light armor or the robes?

    If I go with the robes I lose 6 point AC .... does it really matter now since I am evading magic spells and dodging melee blows?

    Thanks
    MacR

  19. #119
    Community Member Munkenmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacRighteous View Post
    Guys - I just turned level 14 on this build - I am wearing the light armor Silken Mail from Demon Sands, And I have the Black Dragon scales to turn in for the level 14 Black dragon Armor. Should I go with the light armor or the robes?

    If I go with the robes I lose 6 point AC .... does it really matter now since I am evading magic spells and dodging melee blows?

    Thanks
    MacR
    The standard reasons for going robes are to avoid your armors max dexterity bonus reducing your dodge cap, and for being centred with monk levels.

    This build don't have much dex for ac, doesn't have a high dodge, nor does it have any monk levels.

    Going with light armor will give you slightly more AC and slightly more PRR than wearing robes, & most likely with no defensive losses.

  20. #120

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    Quite honestly I view this guy's armor is nothing more than an equipment slot for effects. Whichever armor has the better effects for you, go with that.

    You likely won't cap your dodge no matter what, and your AC will be essentially non-existant either way. The light armor does give you a touch of PRR, so add that (but not the AC bonus) into your comparison to the robe. Either way will be fine.

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