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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilger View Post
    snip ..
    Thanks for this... but shhhhhhh

    when you know how to Fascinate/enthrall, use song of capering and ottos irrisistable dance, have a DC of over 70 without breaking a sweat (CC EE gianthold anyone ??? my bard can with extreme effectiveness... songs dont break invis, and damage doesnt always break enthral)

    lets just say my bard now has just shy of 900hp, dual wields either axe of adaxus + mourn hammer or switches to 2 nightmares, has PRR of 51 with 0 arcane spell failure, crits for 400+ without adrenaline, 2k+ with adrenaline, can self haste, displacement and now self heal for 700+ per hit, has SP song, recharging songs.....

    I can only assume that the people who think bards are the red headed stepchild dont actually know how to play a bard propertly...

    dont get me wrong I initially created a bard as a self hasting and self healing melee warchanter..... got to cap but never once did i fascinate, did all the raids did my part in groups and still never fascinated

    and at the time would have thought yeah bards are okm but could do with some improvmenets

    than I started to fascinate (I also have a high DC CC wizard)... I will tell you this when you have fascinate that has no spell pen check has a DC that nothing will save against, has a 95% success rate, you dont have to stop moving, you start learning at what point in the song will the mobs get fascinated, learn to judge at what point you have to start singing and where you will be when the fascinate hits, how you can group mobs up while singing and than.... everything stops you'll see the bard in a different light

    than you consider your bard has enough points to keep spellcraft, heal, perform, UMD maxed at each level, twist in energy burst + momentus swing, with both cleaves... you'll find a toon that can

    Melee as well as any none barb
    CC with a 70+ DC
    Self heal for 700+
    50+ PRR with added displacement, rage and haste

    ...... wheres the gimpness in that ?... they're not a gimp class, its just the vast majority of bards i've grouped with sing a few songs and pike the rest....dont really know how to build or play a bard




    ... but yeah lets keep it like that.....avoid that nerf bat


    ..... its easy to follow build from a post on the forums... but is far more satisfying understanding a class and building your own toon once you know everything the class has to offer...

  2. #122
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Didn't you post a while back asking why the devs were nerfing everyone with this new EP?
    What was that I was saying about polarizing everthing into black and white Thrudh? I posted 30 some nerfs that I thought people should be aware of, several of them got worse (Pali's needed Shields for stance STR and CON afterall) some got mitigated, others i didn't know about slipped in but most of them became live nerfs.

    I'm not a fan of nerfs, and especially ones that feel needless clueless unthinking or arbitrary, or unfitting how the game actually plays (like the Pali nerfs or the focus on Bard songs that few pugs will work with) which describes most of the ones in that list.

    By in large most classes netted dramatic power increases. This doesn't make me feel better about Pali's it doesn't make me feel better about all those wasted Abbot runs to get Noxious Embers, now a 3% crit lore bonus in a game with +18% in every end reward (Sages Skullcap Breaking the ranks, every time you finish it)

    I'm giving up on Bards, they are the least represented class in the game short of Druids who are a new and pay to play class, and yet their flavor is so loved that Bard players are just going to sit and defend being further left behind the power curve.

    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    I know its only a tiny amount but can get some dodge from a song no? Inspire heroics?
    Ah Inspire Heroics, it gives the same bonuses as GH, and a small amount of dodge, on a class that has a grand time trying to get relivant dodge values (not that it can't be done). Another plecebo song, just like many of the others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Ya, this stopped being true about the time they released the bard PrEs. I was actually OK with most of these aspects of bard, though I did think the +7 to +9 bonus to-hit was over-the-top in the old D20 world. You were basically doubling the damage of the entire party. Can you say "12 instead of 6?"

    Then DDO went haywire with casters. The most overpowered aspects of bards has been and continues to be (up until 10am EST at least) Spellsong Vigor, Fascinate, and Inspire Excellence. +1 to EVERY DC, +1 to EVERY save, +1 to EVERY skill, +1 damage, and +1 to-hit, then times that by the number of people in your group. It would be LESS powerful if it was simply a +12 to strength.

    Spellsong vigor is still utterly ludicrous.
    In a game filled with 2 years of birthday cakes of 25 supreme sp pots bound to account (I have 600-ish left out of 700-ish) I don't even know what to say to someone who thinks the sp song is OP. Do you have a guild or static group that stops to Regen from your song? Honest question, if so cool, but that's not how the game plays in pugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Exactly! A elemental spell-damage-specialized full-caster class, versus a non-spell-DPS class, and you think that's appropriate?

    I don't play a Bard, so of course I didn't dig deep into the details. I just don't care. And I have no objections to Bards getting better enhancements if needed.
    You dont play a Bard? Obviously.... or Druids appearently, you'll just have to take my word for it (yeah i know you wont w/e), giving a mid spell level AOE and a DOT to Bards doesnt even get a Bard close to the Druid, the Druid still has another DOT (greater creeping cold), elemental spells that can target vulnerabilities that no bard has, and 3 spell levels worth of good spells and +3 DC's from heighten; that make taking 17+ druid levels worth doing. The druid has light spells that are better than what a pure FvS gets (Sunbeam) that are just as good as sonic (if not better) at not being resisted by much of anything. You simply don't have the experience to call those spells over powered, whats more, I do, I have capped Divine's and Arcane's. The relative spell DPS of the new spells and SLA's would merely give the former spellsinger a minor spell DPS option.

    Virtuoso got buffed, but as a spellsinger all I got was a cheap attemp to trick me into going pure (wail as a -3 DC 6th level spell) and a loss of 10 to 20 SP procs. And a bunch of AP wasting song buffs that require your pug group to modify their play style, and dramtically lower their DPS so you can feel usefull.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I have to admit I'm a fan of the "Enhanced Piking" line in the Spell Singer tree. I definitely intend on maxing that.
    Oh the fascinate song enhancements? AKA "hey guys wait up and stop using your monk speed and your FvS wings so i can run ahead and fascinate, oh and no more AOE's everyone pick one mob, oh hey Barb we need you to put the great axe down, wait WHO JUST CLEAVED?!"
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 08-22-2013 at 04:45 PM.

  3. #123
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BFD20001 View Post
    We all know that according to you DDO can do no wrong, but you truly are mad...
    You can not do it haha. So I went with spellsinger. I was thinking that I will have one bard be level 20 pure spellsinger and I was thinking the other bard will be 13 bard 6 ranger 1 cleric. I get divine might, Manyshot, would have the gtwf and a combination of deepwood sniper, tempest, warchanter and spellsinger. Deeepwood is nice with positive spell points you can get in the first couple of tiers, 2d6 sneak, snipe shot (for many), tempest gets some offhand procs at level 3 and with a few points you can some cheap stuff. Still would have decent perform/enthrall, a fair amount of sp, o.k. healing with all the positive spell power/cocoon/cure crit/cur lt wound mass/emp healing feat. Str, cha, dex, con.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  4. #124
    The Hatchery Hoglum's Avatar
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    Bards are fine. I'm a Bard and people put up with me. Just think:

    1. I never buff anyone.

    2. I never sing songs.

    3. The only person dancing in my sphere is me.

    4. I never get any kills.

    5. I always cost the party 10%.

    ...and I still get invited back. I don't see the problem.

  5. #125
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Ah Inspire Heroics, it gives the same bonuses as GH, and a small amount of dodge. Another plecebo song, just like many of the others.
    A stacking 4% bonus to Dodge is neither small nor placebo. Especially considering that Dodge items of differing amounts no longer stack with one another.
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  6. #126
    The Hatchery samthedagger's Avatar
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    Okay this thread has gotten pretty big and this is my first post, but allow me to say that I, for one, love the bard class. It is my second-favorite class (after the cleric) merely due to its sheer versatility. I originally rolled a bard for the same reason most people rolled their first bard: I wanted a hagglebot. However, as I played the class more and more I discovered so much unlocked potential in the class. I eventually decided I wanted to do a little more DPS and so I TR'd into a helf arcane archer (or bardcher) build with a Ftr2/Rgr2/Brd16 split and Arti dilly and capped up to 25. I ended up loving to play that character even more than my many clerics and made it my primary toon.

    So when I started beta-testing Shadowfell Conspiracy I realized I was going to have to make some changes. I had already acquired a lot of archer gear by this point (including a fully-upgraded Pinion and partially upgraded Needle) which I did not want to waste, so I tested many different concepts on Lamannia and here is what I eventually settled on:

    Half-Elf Bard 20
    Str 10, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 13, Cha 17
    Skills: Balance, Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Haggle, Heal (amazing right?), Perform, Use Magic Device all maxed with 1 rank in Tumble and a few left over in Use Magic Device
    Feats: Helf Artificer Dilettante, 1 Quicken Spell, 3 Point Blank Shot, 6 Rapid Shot, 9 Precise Shot, 12 Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons, 15 Manyshot, 18 Improved Precise Shot, 21 Inspire Excellence, 25 (This was going to be Combat Archery, but I realized I didn't have a high enough Dex, so until I find a +5 Dex tome, I picked Rapid Reload for those times when I want to use Needle).
    Enhancements: This is where I had the toughest time. Right now I am playing with 59 points invested in Arcane Archer, 4 in Spellsinger (for Lingering Song), and the other 17 in the Helf racial tree. Aside from the graphical glitch that occurs with Moonbow, I am loving it. At some point I will try focusing more on Spellsinger, but for the moment, it is a great Ranged DPS build with lots of utility and off-healing.
    Spells: Mostly utility buffs plus things like mass charm, mass suggestion, mind fog, and sphere of dancing, which are surprisingly useful with all the debuffs that Arcane Archers get.
    Epic Destiny: Fun to play in Fatesinger, Arcane Archer, or Fury of the Wild depending on my mood and expected role in the group.
    Role: I can do just about anything with this build besides primary healer. I can buff, I can DPS, I can CC, I can off-heal, I can kite, and I can even tank if need requires it. Am I absolutely the best at any of these things? No. But the bard has always been a jack-of-all-trades and master of none. I can even solo EE most quests as long as I take my time.

    I can see a lot of potential in a CC oriented Spellsinger or a melee Warchanter as well. I've seen other bards do some pretty cool things so far too. So don't count the bard out. There are a lot of possibilities. And the combination of Virtuoso and Spellsinger was absolutely a buff to the bard. Given that alone I find it hard to say that the expansion pack has nerfed the bard.

  7. #127
    The Hatchery Nédime's Avatar
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    Helf, pally diletante, str based (starting 16 charisma however)

    16 bard 2 rog 2 fig (2HF)
    or
    18 bard 2 rog

    Can get through everything : self sufficient (not only byoh, but byo-everything), trapper, high saves (no kidding, with Parasitic breastplate you can go afk inside traps). You don't have enough dc ? go enthral, fascinate, and even oto's irresistible. Yes people have haste/displace/rage, GH clickies, but YOU, you have it all, always, and your sp regenerate so you don't care being debuffed.

    And after 20 there's no real distinction, everyone can twist what he wishes.
    Aezechiel (Caster, 8th life) - Kakophonyc (Bard, 2nd life) - Larsenkarden (Cleric, 3rd life) - Lewela (Bard, 6th life) - Punkcanard (dual deathnip centered halfling tempest 3rd life) - Usuldur (Melee, completionist) - Sylentbob (ranger) ... and a couple of mules


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  8. #128
    Community Member azrael4h's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoglum View Post
    Bards are fine. I'm a Bard and people put up with me. Just think:

    1. I never buff anyone.

    2. I never sing songs.

    3. The only person dancing in my sphere is me.

    4. I never get any kills.

    5. I always cost the party 10%.

    ...and I still get invited back. I don't see the problem.
    That's because we kill you to get a +1 bonus to loot. For the infinitesimally small chance of a +5 tome.
    It was the night before Hogswatch....

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  9. #129
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    In a game filled with 2 years of birthday cakes of 25 supreme sp pots bound to account (I have 600-ish left out of 700-ish) I don't even know what to say to someone who thinks the sp song is OP. Do you have a guild or static group that stops to Regen from your song? Honest question, if so cool, but that's not how the game plays in pugs.
    I don't play anything but PUGs, and we are clearly playing entirely different games. A PUG where a caster is quaffing sp potions left and right with obviously no restraint is one that gets reformed (around that person) pretty quickly. I've had PUGs reform like that on at least a dozen occasions. It's not because people have some uppity view of people using easy buttons... it's because when a caster has unlimited sp the entire game becomes one BIG easy button. It's simply a matter of being able to play the game on the character you want to play it - and casters can interfere with that DIRECTLY.

    In raids, people will use sp potions as needed, but they generally have a limit they aren't willing to cross. So all that winds up happening is caster's and healer's sp pool is made slightly larger based on the pool of sp pots they bring (which is NOT unlimited). The next part is more math, so you might want to close your eyes:

    Lets say you have 2 casters and 2 clerics in your raid. A spellsinger has 40 songs. The raid lasts 30 minutes, and each Spellsong Vigor restores approximately 230 spell points over 4 minutes. The spellsinger has to use about 15 songs for other purposes, leaving 25 + anthem recharge of 10.

    First, note he can use all 35 in the time of the raid: (30 / 4) = 7.5 songs per mana bar x 5 mana bars is 37.5, more than 35.

    Next, calculate how many spell points that is: 35 * 230 = 8050 spell points.

    Lastly, compute how many mana pots you have added to the party: 8050 / 600 = 13.4

    And yes, a 13.4 mana pot raid is one that was completed by using a crutch. On top of that, people were still willing to spend the mana pots that they are normally willing to spend (per economic rules). The raid was just trivialized by a spellsinger - and it happens on a daily basis in DDO currently.

    Not that I care about trivializing raids. What I care about is the health of the game. Which is why I am at odds with people like the ones in this thread whose mission in life is to prove that the game sucks eggs in comparison with their ego.

  10. #130
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    I don't play anything but PUGs, and we are clearly playing entirely different games. A PUG where a caster is quaffing sp potions left and right with obviously no restraint is one that gets reformed (around that person) pretty quickly. I've had PUGs reform like that on at least a dozen occasions. It's not because people have some uppity view of people using easy buttons... it's because when a caster has unlimited sp the entire game becomes one BIG easy button. It's simply a matter of being able to play the game on the character you want to play it - and casters can interfere with that DIRECTLY.

    In raids, people will use sp potions as needed, but they generally have a limit they aren't willing to cross. So all that winds up happening is caster's and healer's sp pool is made slightly larger based on the pool of sp pots they bring (which is NOT unlimited). The next part is more math, so you might want to close your eyes:

    Lets say you have 2 casters and 2 clerics in your raid. A spellsinger has 40 songs. The raid lasts 30 minutes, and each Spellsong Vigor restores approximately 230 spell points over 4 minutes. The spellsinger has to use about 15 songs for other purposes, leaving 25 + anthem recharge of 10.

    First, note he can use all 35 in the time of the raid: (30 / 4) = 7.5 songs per mana bar x 5 mana bars is 37.5, more than 35.

    Next, calculate how many spell points that is: 35 * 230 = 8050 spell points.

    Lastly, compute how many mana pots you have added to the party: 8050 / 600 = 13.4

    And yes, a 13.4 mana pot raid is one that was completed by using a crutch. On top of that, people were still willing to spend the mana pots that they are normally willing to spend (per economic rules). The raid was just trivialized by a spellsinger - and it happens on a daily basis in DDO currently.

    Not that I care about trivializing raids. What I care about is the health of the game. Which is why I am at odds with people like the ones in this thread whose mission in life is to prove that the game sucks eggs in comparison with their ego.
    Dont forget that spellsinger is most likely adding his own DPS, cc's, other buffs and healing that can take a bit of weight off the other spellcasters as well. Oh and debuffing the enemy.

  11. #131
    Community Member phalaeo2's Avatar
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    Well, I'll be LRing my Bard into.... a Bard?

    I'm currently playing a Halfling 16/2/2 (Bard, Rogue, Fighter) Spellsinger, and I love her... matter of fact, just got done getting her a PL:Rogue. I think they've given Bards some awesome stuff with this new pass. I would like to have seen a bit more of a buff to personal melee DPS, but when you count in EDs, can't complain.

    Pallys on the other hand, got really shafted. I'm thinking of making my Pally into a second Bard.
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  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    it doesn't make me feel better about all those wasted Abbot runs to get Noxious Embers, now a 3% crit lore bonus in a game with +18% in every end reward
    Wrong and wrong.

    First of all, if your Embers is 3% instead of 6%, that's your fault. Go fix it.

    Second, those 18% are specific to a single damage type. The advantage to an Arcane Lore is that is applies to ALL damage types. Now, I'm not necessarily saying Arcane Lore percentages should be -10%, but it's downright dishonest to just say 3% or 10% (without mentioning "ON EVERYTHING") is lower than 18% (ON ONLY ONE THING).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    I'm giving up on Bards
    OK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    I don't even know what to say to someone who thinks the sp song is OP. Do you have a guild or static group that stops to Regen from your song?
    And I don't know what to say to someone who thinks it's weak and doesn't know how to use it. What's this nonsense about STOPPING? Just have it running continuously! Of course, I guess you don't need advice on how to use it more effectively, since you're giving up on Bards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    You dont play a Bard? Obviously.... or Druids appearently
    Not currently. I HAVE played every class to cap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    giving a mid spell level AOE and a DOT to Bards doesnt even get a Bard close to the Druid
    Are you still on this?

    I'm sorry you don't realized that the Level 5 DoT spells are extremely powerful. Maybe you should try them out on your various capped divines and arcanes that you were bragging about.

    Giving "Specialist" non-full-caster Level 3 Bards who can only cast Level 1 spells an SLA equal to the Level 5 DoT spells that full casters don't get until class level 9/10?

    It's idiotic. I don't know why you keep trying to claim this idea is balanced. It would be vastly overpowered for ANY class, and is completely out of line with the underlying concept of what a Bard is.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Everyone glorifies deadly weapons buffs like they are the next coming of pixelated christ.
    Not me! I get irritated with the Artis who don't carry Enchant Weapon.

  14. #134
    Blogger and Hatchery Hero
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin
    I don't even know what to say to someone who thinks the sp song is OP. Do you have a guild or static group that stops to Regen from your song?


    I don't even know what to say to someone who doesn't realize you can run and sing at the same time, and who doesn't realize that if the party isn't in range of a certain song they may want, as long as you're keeping up with the group and not piking the entrance it's not your problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Not me! I get irritated with the Artis who don't carry Enchant Weapon.
    i know just what you mean. was in a shroud the other day and asked for an enchant weapon, got deadly. i said "no, enchant weapon, please." got deadly AGAIN. just sighed and shook my head and carried on.

    aren't you glad we can cast our own now? ^_^

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  15. #135
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    LRed one of my bards into a 16/2/2 bard ranger fighter. Cleave + supreme cleave w/ 2 handers, many shot w/ pinion for personal DPS. Spellsinger + virt songs and a little warchanter flavor tossed in for good measure. Fascinate song DC is still at the level of save on 20 fail in 1-19.

    Can do fury if DPS is needed, fatesinger or shiradi for CC. LD for soloing.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  16. #136
    Community Member Bilger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5chinoble View Post
    Thanks for this... but shhhhhhh
    ...snip....
    Deleted figured wasn't worth the effort to reply something so rude even when we both seemed to be on same page.
    Last edited by Bilger; 08-25-2013 at 02:55 AM.
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