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  1. #101
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cru121 View Post
    Bard combat songs are indeed marginalized in today's DDO. One thing is that many unique song effects are now available from different sources. Another thing is that the song bonuses are now relatively smaller compared to other bonuses that we can get.
    This is true. Back when my two weapon fighters were doing around 40 damage a swing, a bard song that added +7 or +8 damage meant A LOT. Balloons and confetti would drop from the ceiling and champagne bottles would pop when a bard joined a PUG raid, because they had a serious impact.

    Now that the damage per swing has at least doubled, bard combat songs don't mean a whole lot, especially in non raid groups or shortmanning where subpar bard DPS is taking away from the overall DPS.

    That being said, I'm very, very happy with my healing/cc bard, and it fits nicely into what I think bards are all about, which is making groups better, but it would be nice if the damage songs were updated to match the DPS inflation of the game so that bard combat songs could feel relevant like they used to.

  2. #102
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    Now that the damage per swing has at least doubled, bard combat songs don't mean a whole lot, especially in non raid groups or shortmanning where subpar bard DPS is taking away from the overall DPS.
    Sigh...

    There is nothing stopping a bard from mimicking EVERYTHING a barbarian would do to achieve a high damage rate. They can take Fury of the Wild as a destiny, they can take the THF feats, they can maximize strength, they even have Rage as a spell and there are rage-like enhancements now. Add in inspire courage, inspire greatness, inspire excellence, gh, and haste/displacement and they could be pretty close to the same thing as a barbarian... except one that self-heals at lightning speed.

    You people moaning about "subpar" DPS compared with barbarians and fighters are making complete fools of yourself. Cause the fact of the matter is that THAT type of bard is grossly inferior to an actual bard. You are at least two rungs away from reality of any sort.

    +4 to-hit in a raid (due to Inspire Courage & even in today's DDO), is going to be, at a minimum, an average of 5% more DPS for each member of the party. It's actually pretty rare to be hitting on a 2 anymore due to the formula used to compute attacks. (And if someone actually needs a 7 or so to hit a mob, then +4 is going to be more like an 8-9% improvement in DPS.) So times that by say 8 other people, and you are already sitting at 40% of the average damage of the group. Without even swinging a weapon yourself. Now add 5 damage to that with Inspire Courage. That's 40 damage plus crits you are doing without swinging a weapon yourself. The long story short is that bards are generally still doing just as much damage in a raid group as the best of the bunch - no matter how bad at melee or spell damage they are themselves.

    A bard shouldn't be bad at melee, however. The problem that I have seen over the years is that the type of people that play this game (and stick to it) simply can't comprehend the idea of a hybrid. You don't sacrifice melee ability for spellcasting on a bard, and you don't sacrifice spellcasting for melee. You likewise don't give up healing, or CC, or good saves, or good AC, or...

    You name it. Bards are good at everything. They are good at soloing, they are good at avoidance, they are good at defense, and they EXCEL at making groups do well.

    The problem is NOT with the class. I don't know how to emphasize that enough. You simply don't get the class, or you wouldn't be here whining. I've spent the last 4 maybe 5 years wondering if I should bring my bard, or my sorc. I'm frankly tired of it, and sick to death of having whiners trivialize other classes with their endless, mindless, bullpucky.

    I have 17 characters and my bard is second to NONE of them.

  3. #103
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    +4 to hit due to inspire courage is nothing because people have +4 same to hit from GH. Now, my warchanter took the T1 Warchanter "Inspired Bravery" enhancement (because it's required for positive spell power enhancements later on), so my Inspire Courage grants +6 to hit (3 from bard 1/8/14, 3 from enhancement). Extra +2 to hit is... I don't know how much extra DPS, probably less than 1%. To hit is important, but +2 is barely noticeable.

    My Inspire Courage gives +5 morale bonus to damage, that's 3 points more than a Good Hope clickie. If an average basic hit deals 50 damage for ranged/TWF and 100 for THF, this is an approximate 3%-6% DPS increase.

    It's not completely useless. But definitely much worse than it used to be.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Add in inspire courage, inspire greatness, inspire excellence, gh, and haste/displacement and they could be pretty close to the same thing as a barbarian... except one that self-heals at lightning speed.
    * Inspire Greatness does not add to DPS and is eclipsed by items at level 5.
    * GH - Everyone has it
    * Haste - Everyone has it, now on items and feat
    * Displace - Everyone can have it from GS clickies
    * Healing - Cocoon eclipses bard healing, and everyone can twist cocoon. Heal is great but getting it requires sacrifices on the DPS front, so that's out if you want to compete with barbs.

    Which leaves us with inspire courage (+2 hit, +3 damage over clickies) and inspire excellence. And Skaldic Rage, which is pretty nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    You likewise don't give up healing, or CC, or good saves, or good AC, or...
    Good defenses these days are: 25% dodge, 25% incorporeal, 50% displace, obscene PRR, obscene heal-amp, (improved) evasion, saving throws in the 50s-60s. Can bards reach this?

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post
    your enhancement selection
    Interesting, you have rogue levels yet you picked up Armorer? Do you switch armors depending on the situation?

    Also, you have picked up Hardy Rage in Ravager? Afaik this does not work in Skaldic Rage (though I have only tried it Power Rage from FrB tree, that did not seem to work).
    Last edited by cru121; 08-22-2013 at 03:09 AM.

  5. #105
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post

    +4 to-hit in a raid (due to Inspire Courage & even in today's DDO), is going to be, at a minimum, an average of 5% more DPS for each member of the party.
    If each member of the party swings weapons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post

    ... an 8-9% improvement in DPS.) So times that by say 8 other people, and you are already sitting at 40% of the average damage of the group.
    This math is no good. If each weapons user's DPS improves by 8%, it means the group's overall weapons damage has improved by 8%, not 40%. If bards were improving a group's DPS by 40%, do you really think this thread would exist?



    Now you certainly worked yourself up into a froth, and frankly, if my math was that wonky, I would probably be pretty upset that this thread existed too. But self righteousness and fundamental lack of understanding of bard DPS songs and their effect on a group aside, I do think you have some valid points. Epic destinies certainly account for a huge chunk of DPS, and fascinate is strong enough to be considered good cc regardless if cc spells are an option for the bard or not. Hell, sacrifice cure moderate wounds mass and otto's irresistable dance on a bard, give it a sireth with 5 levels of thief/acrobat tier 5 rogue, and I would expect the DPS to be pretty solid. It's a give and take, but I do believe that we aren't giving bards enough credit in the DPS department.

    That being said, I stand by my statement about bard damage songs needing to reflect the DPS inflation in the game.
    Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 08-22-2013 at 04:24 AM.

  6. #106
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post
    This math is no good. If each weapons user's DPS improves by 8%, it means the group's overall weapons damage has improved by 8%, not 40%. If bards were improving a group's DPS by 40%, do you really think this thread would exist?
    Bard's actually used to improve the entire group's DPS by about 40%. You could see it in Shroud runs, easily. Replace one member with a bard, and Harry would take half the amount of time to kill as he did before. That situation was unfortunate, and a complete misbalance of game mechanics - but were groups dead set on having a bard in order to complete?

    Sometimes, usually not. Even though the bard was pulling 40% of the weight of the ENTIRE group.

    That is where your math is horrible. A single person pulling 40% of the weight of eleven other people is an exploit, not a game mechanic. Divide 60% (parts add up to a whole of 1) by 11 and that means that everyone else is averaging roughly 5%. 40% versus 5%. A bard would be worth 8 other people in your wonky math world.

    Which that should spell out the way I was comparing. A bard does roughly 40% of the damage of a SINGLE other person with just his SONGS in a raid. I wasn't saying that he does roughly 40% of the total damage, and you should have been able to grasp that (I think your arrogance was getting in the way). I still expect bards to do other things during a raid other than sing. Like casting mass cures for 200+ healing per person, or tanking a redname with displacement, or fascinating the bases of VoN 6...

    Your arrogance doesn't have any ill effect on my bard. I can take my spellsinger into any raid, epic or not, and be certain that bringing him is MUCH more of an asset than bringing what used to be my radiant servant cleric. What you don't seem to get is that my EXPERIENCE has augmented the correctly analyzed MATH... my bard has significantly better success-to-failure ratios for EVERY raid that the game has. He has more completions, and more 20th end rewards.

    Note that I didn't even get into what Inspire Excellence does for the group, or what spellsinger songs do for spell damage (which is often actually MOST of the damage done in a raid - people bad at math withstanding). I was also using what used to be low numbers for Inspire Courage - and whether someone goes to the trouble and expense of casting Greater Heroism on top of songs is not really pertinent to the question - as that would involve an expenditure of something that could have been used for damage in a different form.

    Which really sums up the whole issue here. You and people you play with are bad at the game, and you want the developers to compensate. I get it. The problem is that everytime the developers sit down to make an improvement to bards, they always look at what bards are supposed to be doing - namely making everyone else look even better. So they keep making bards better, and everyone else as well, and it's the content that suffers. They've BEEN doing that for more than seven years now... yet here you still are seven years later, producing the same inane mathematics that got us to a small, pathetic playerbase.
    Last edited by Raithe; 08-22-2013 at 07:47 AM.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by cru121 View Post
    Interesting, you have rogue levels yet you picked up Armorer? Do you switch armors depending on the situation?

    Also, you have picked up Hardy Rage in Ravager? Afaik this does not work in Skaldic Rage (though I have only tried it Power Rage from FrB tree, that did not seem to work).

    yes i do. typically i run around in a Terrorweb Chitin and PDK gauntlets/helm, which is medium armor, but i have a couple suits of epic light armors for situations where i REALLY do honestly need an evasion save and just a straight reflex save won't be enough. (oh how i wish i could put the PDK bonus on a set of light armor >.> )

    i was testing hardy rage and i think power rage... (altho i was more concentrating on busting heads in the quest) if i find out conclusively that they don't work with skaldic rage i'll be dropping them.


    i gotta ask... why do people keep saying "+4 to hit +4 to hit"? what bard relies straight up on ONLY the feat-granted bonus to their Inspire Courage? not this one! inspire bravery in warchanter line. adds +3 more to hit. now we're up to +7. poetic edda is supposed to add another +3... now we're up to +10! Fighting Spirit in the core abilities adds +2 to damage for a total of +6. sharp note grants allies up to +3 more damage if i fascinate (i only have one trained rank currently, but....) for a potential total of +9

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  8. #108
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallin View Post
    I have to agree with Norg here. I was terrified of LRing my bard (pure Virt human bard) because of all the naysaying I heard. The character is more powerful than before. Perform is now over 100 - I was fascinating stuff on epic elite with no problems. In some of the new content on EH with the massive spawns the bard CC the quests, used wail for neg levels, and made 3-man EH runs a cakewalk (bard, rogue, wizard). I was not even in best destiny - probably would be able to contribute more offensively if I was.

    On top of this I could heal the party better than before (heal spells hitting 400-500) and I wasn't running out of sp because now healing CC bard has spellsinger stuff.

    If people are hating on bards it is because they don't understand how to play the class and what its strengths are.

    Vallin.
    Pure level 20 spellsinger bards are just so good right now - just amazing. As a solid divine player you know what I am talking about Vallin. That being said I may try something fun on Rabiez because my two bards are feeling a little too similiar although Rabiez right now is more healbot and Hangover more cc. I need to work on Hangover's healbot stuff a bit before changing.
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  9. #109
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    When I was just playing a spell singer my bard was already the best utilitarian in the group, and holding his own in DPS. Now Im playing both spellsinger and virtuoso, with parts of warchanter.

    All this stuff about sub par DPS is cute. Destinies have the largest impact on melee or ranged damage dealt nowdays, and last time checked, bards arent locked out of the ones that do the most damage.

    SO what will I be LRing my bard into? An even better bard.

  10. #110
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusMaximus View Post

    That being said, I stand by my statement about bard damage songs needing to reflect the DPS inflation in the game.
    Everyone glorifies deadly weapons buffs like they are the next coming of pixelated christ. on a 2.5[2d8] weapon deadly gives 9 points of damage per hit. Hmm, thats odd, my bards songs also give 9 points of damage per hit. So how is it that people can talk deadly weapons up, and at the same time dismiss bard song like its out of fashion?

    Im still not sure what part of min maxing isnt being understood when people start talking about bard songs not being so good in todays game. We play a game where people farm religiously in order to get far less of an increase in damage, and take up at least one, if not two, gear slots in order to gain +3 and +4 damage respectively. Here a toon can sing a +9 damage song that takes no gear slots, and some forumites are trying to gloss over that and casually dismiss it as if it has no impact?

    Most of this inflated DPS is in bursts, which boost the damage dealt using a percentage multiplier, which bard songs multiply into just like any other weapon damage.
    Last edited by Chai; 08-22-2013 at 10:10 AM.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    When I was just playing a spell singer my bard was already the best utilitarian in the group, and holding his own in DPS. Now Im playing both spellsinger and virtuoso, with parts of warchanter.

    All this stuff about sub par DPS is cute. Destinies have the largest impact on melee or ranged damage dealt nowdays, and last time checked, bards arent locked out of the ones that do the most damage.

    SO what will I be LRing my bard into? An even better bard.

    Love that last sentence =D. An even better bard.

    Anyways, this is my first bard life ever, going pure for the awesomeness of it. And it's absolutely awesome! I don't know what people are complaining about. I can do BETTER cc than in my wiz life (unless they're immune, in which case I hide behind the big people - cuz that's what halflings do). I have more sp because of that awesome new spellsinger line. And being a full UMD cha-based toon, I have a library of scrolls that help me do the things that my partymates can't do, be it heal, cc, and dps. Do we need more nuking spells? Maybe. But I like my Soundburst. Do we need more love and understanding from the ddo community? Maybe, because we're more than just singers (but we all have music in our hearts). But are we sucky? HELL NO.

  12. #112
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    Yeah, but the reality is that it's not really viable in epic levels, and for the most part CC is pointless when you have several other classes insta killing everything in the room.
    How is it not viable? My songs, even with a Perform of only mid-70s, are landing successfully on every mob that can be fascinated in the latest content on Epic Elite. Your complaint about enemies dying too fast is only going to be true if you stick with the party. You shouldn't be sticking with them but rather ahead of them preparing the encounters. Naturally how you prepare them depends entirely on your party makeup. For example, when grouped with Monkchers, I try to line up the enemies to maximize their IPS Fury Manyshots.
    Last edited by Ryiah; 08-22-2013 at 01:19 PM.
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  13. #113
    Community Member Bolo_Grubb's Avatar
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    I have 2 bards.

    one is a level 25 pure bard that was a spell singer, I have not done anything with that bard yet.

    My other bard is 18 bard and 2 rogue. I think he came out of the enhancement pass pretty nice. I was able to get all the songs I had before plus spellsinger songs and several warchanter songs.

    I have always play this toon as a buffing rogue, he is definitely better then he was before. More songs, more buffs and he rogue skill are about the same as before. The only spells I use are for buffing, so I am not worried about DCs or spell pen. Perform skill is higher then it was before and his songs rock.

    My opinion might change as I play him more, but too many toons to update with enhancements and multiclass toons take even longer to figure how to spend the points. :0
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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Pure level 20 spellsinger bards are just so good right now - just amazing. As a solid divine player you know what I am talking about Vallin. That being said I may try something fun on Rabiez because my two bards are feeling a little too similiar although Rabiez right now is more healbot and Hangover more cc. I need to work on Hangover's healbot stuff a bit before changing.
    I second that. My pure SS is a lot better, EVEN without using the LR+20. I'm still afraid of using it.

  15. #115
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Everyone glorifies deadly weapons buffs like they are the next coming of pixelated christ...
    I missed the part where I compared bard songs to deadly weapons, but if you want to invent an argument, be my guest.

    I said that I would like bard songs to have a similar impact on group DPS to what they used to.

  16. #116
    Community Member ThreeEyedBob's Avatar
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    I agree on Spellsinger being combined with Virtuoso on the enhancement tree. That made it incredibly nice for pure bard. It really killed my half-elf 2 rogue, 18 bard arcane-archer project. I wanted more arcane-archer in the build, but even more bard! So I couldnt cover both bases like I wanted to. So I ended up TR'ing her back to human pure bard with chestblessing instead.

    Has anyone checked out the Dragon Knight racial? I believe there was a choice to use Charisma for attack/damage with certain types of weapons. That could make for an insane bard build :-)
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  17. #117
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    Angry How is that working out for you Matt?

    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I am staying as a pure level 20 bard. I am spending 41 pts in warchanter and 41 pts in spellsinger so I can get both core level 20 abilities.
    We all know that according to you DDO can do no wrong, but you truly are mad...

  18. #118
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThreeEyedBob View Post
    Has anyone checked out the Dragon Knight racial? I believe there was a choice to use Charisma for attack/damage with certain types of weapons. That could make for an insane bard build :-)
    The weapon choices are short sword, long sword, bastard sword, and great sword. Might be rather fun with a Sword of Shadow.
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  19. #119
    Community Member FlaviusMaximus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Bard's actually used to improve the entire group's DPS by about 40%.
    Let's say a bard song gives +8 damage. In order for that song to give the entire group +40% DPS, all member of the group would have to do 20 damage per swing, two handed fighters included, and all members of the group would have to be weapons users.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Even though the bard was pulling 40% of the weight of the ENTIRE group...A bard would be worth 8 other people in your wonky math world.
    Well that's a good bit of irony. You are referencing your own completely false numbers about what bard songs used to be worth and somehow saying this is part of my wonky math world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Which that should spell out the way I was comparing. A bard does roughly 40% of the damage of a SINGLE other person with just his SONGS in a raid. I wasn't saying that he does roughly 40% of the total damage, and you should have been able to grasp that (I think your arrogance was getting in the way).
    Well here's the problem; that isn't what you said. At all. And I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt and believe that you meant something completely different, but the equally off math that you followed that thread up with tells me that you meant what you said and are retroactively changing your statements to cover yourself.

    I like that you get very angry in your posts, and I like that they are really long, and I like the chest puffing out, and the insults, and the occasional all caps words, and the bad math, followed by lies about what you meant, followed by more bad math, but before you try to put a positive spin on your last post, calm down and really think about what you are saying before you submit it. Also, it may be wise to give up on trying to make points using math. It hasn't gone well for you thus far.
    Last edited by FlaviusMaximus; 08-22-2013 at 03:45 PM.

  20. #120
    Community Member Bilger's Avatar
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    Reading this thread I see very few who understand what a bard really can do and brings to the party. (Raithe, Matt, Kat.. and a few others get it)

    I have played Bard since before Drow was even a race in this game. I love them and they bring a tremendous amont to a group. My pure CC/Heal Bard can heal any quest in game and has the best CC of ANY class. (Fascinate and enthral now) With the new enhancements I went from a SS to a SS/Virt/w/ a splas of WC (better song damage boost.

    I take a healer role in raids and groups and with my cc, heals, and virtually endless mana can keep a group alive in even EE content. No one seems to mention the mana regen song or anything else that saves resources and gives casters more SP to play with. I know there are pots and such and a bard saves them from being used unless just a idiot and spam non stop because have no idea how to conserve or use the right spells at the right time.

    Fascinate/Enthrall and such are huge especially in smart groups makes quests so easy that you can almost call it a exploit.

    The enhancement pass did nothing but improve my bards over all they can do so much more now and with heal spell made healing life so much easier. That was the one thing healer bards needed was a huge burst heal for thos O C R A P moments and now we have it.

    Now Wail is stupid and I wish mass Hold would of been there instead would of made more sense.

    Other classes may be slightly higher at certain things, but with pass and ED there isn't much difference at all if built and played right. Bards can do everything though and with none or hardly any differences from the role they are taking.

    Others have stated nicely the other benifits of Bards and it is just lack of knowledge of the class that I am seeing here from those who say they are the weakest and got the shaft with this pass.
    Last edited by Bilger; 08-22-2013 at 03:36 PM.
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