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  1. #61
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Bards . . . have "all is fine" fanbois.

    Next you'll be telling me that paladins aren't terrible.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Bards . . . have "all is fine" fanbois.

    Next you'll be telling me that paladins aren't terrible.
    phht. nope. my pallie is fun, but i know they have issues.

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  3. #63
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Bards . . . have "all is fine" fanbois.

    Next you'll be telling me that paladins aren't terrible.

    And there it is, the sound of the "Well... well... you're stoopid fanbois!" towel.

    There's a classier way to do this. Watch and learn.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Bards . . . have "all is fine" fanbois.

    Next you'll be telling me that paladins aren't terrible.
    Not our fault you suck at bards.

  5. #65
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Wow talk about killing the bearer of bad news, I didn't make this stuff up people, and I didn't put -10% sp cost and Arcane Augmentation on items and make them not stack with Bard songs (trivializing two of spellsingers main songs). Ship buffs that don't stack with Bard songs are just another thing that weakens the class, you can say you don't care, but if I get 50% of a Bards song (competence) 25% (damage) and 100% (DC) by using ship buffs why devote a whole party slot to a Bard? Especially when his Spell Song and Arcane Might song don't stack with ED's and items that casters already have? Or how about that trifling temporary SP? Many casters are getting a stacking temporay SP proc on spell cast ability, what are the chances that spell song SP proc that used to be 20-30 sp and is now 10 temporary sp that DO NOT STACK, is actually going to stack with those SP? I'm going to guess zero chance?

    I will be the first to admit that a duo or static group that uses fascinate is going to be effective, but I play the real game that 99% of the rest of the players play, that just about never includes waiting for the Bard to fascinate, except in Epic Von 6's.

    This isn't about your build, or your skills, it's not an attack on your stable of Bard characters that you love playing (gee I wonder why that person took it personal). If accusing me of sucking at playing bards soothes your hurt feelings over the truth, then fine: I suck at playing the weakest class in the game. Honestly who cares, we're not discussing anything that involves skill, so the repeated accusations look more and more defensive and emotional.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Wow talk about killing the bearer of bad news, I didn't make this stuff up people, and I didn't put -10% sp cost and Arcane Augmentation on items and make them not stack with Bard songs (trivializing two of spellsingers main songs). Ship buffs that don't stack with Bard songs are just another thing that weakens the class, you can say you don't care, but if I get 50% of a Bards song (competence) 25% (damage) and 100% (DC) by using ship buffs why devote a whole party slot to a Bard? Especially when his Spell Song and Arcane Might song don't stack with ED's and items that casters already have? Or how about that trifling temporary SP? Many casters are getting a stacking temporay SP proc on spell cast ability, what are the chances that spell song SP proc that used to be 20-30 sp and is now 10 temporary sp that DO NOT STACK, is actually going to stack with those SP? I'm going to guess zero chance?

    I will be the first to admit that a duo or static group that uses fascinate is going to be effective, but I play the real game that 99% of the rest of the players play, that just about never includes waiting for the Bard to fascinate, except in Epic Von 6's.

    This isn't about your build, or your skills, it's not an attack on your stable of Bard characters that you love playing (gee I wonder why that person took it personal). If accusing me of sucking at playing bards soothes your hurt feelings over the truth, then fine: I suck at playing the weakest class in the game. Honestly who cares, we're not discussing anything that involves skill, so the repeated accusations look more and more defensive and emotional.
    i'm not taking what your saying as a personal attack... but when you spout posts full of misleading and even outright false information, yeah, i'm gonna call yo arse on it. sorry.


    also note.. i've never said they couldn't use a LITTLE more love here and there... but some of the suggestions you made are just ridiculous for what a bard is (note: it's NOT a big-damage dealing arcane caster).

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  7. #67
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post

    I will be the first to admit that a duo or static group that uses fascinate is going to be effective, but I play the real game that 99% of the rest of the players play, that just about never includes waiting for the Bard to fascinate, except in Epic Von 6's.
    .
    This is one of the things that I mentioned in my original post which you just glossed over. All bards basically got the virtuoso songs. Enthrallment at level 3 spellsinger which is awesome do you have any clue what that means. It means fascinate just got more effective for virtually all bards in game. Sustaining song level 4 spellsinger which warchanter and spellsinger can pick up. The list goes on bards got a bump. You have not given any evidence otherwise.
    Last edited by maddmatt70; 08-18-2013 at 10:51 PM.
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  8. #68
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    Eh id never take a bard to 20. I mean I don't think I could actually stand to be sadder in dmg then a pld. I'd want to hang with a virtual rope somehow.....

    The main way ive found to have fun with a bard is to cut him off at lv 12 or 14 and then mix something else in. And even then before ED's he was sooo damn depressing. Then again so weren't most melee that weren't a monk stun, or barb dmg, or rog ko.

    But with LD, and fotw, and the divine thing, dmg came back with self reliance.

    Not sure how i'll work em this time around. I'll probably spend a days time going through all the levels and gains as well as pre mashes, and which work with what as well as verifying that they do work and aern't another busted thing destined to be broken for 6 months.

    Then I'll rework a few builds on the planner and wiki, and then decide which one I wanna go with.
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  9. #69
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Wow talk about killing the bearer of bad news, I didn't make this stuff up people, and I didn't put -10% sp cost and Arcane Augmentation on items and make them not stack with Bard songs (trivializing two of spellsingers main songs). Ship buffs that don't stack with Bard songs are just another thing that weakens the class, you can say you don't care, but if I get 50% of a Bards song (competence) 25% (damage) and 100% (DC) by using ship buffs why devote a whole party slot to a Bard? Especially when his Spell Song and Arcane Might song don't stack with ED's and items that casters already have? Or how about that trifling temporary SP? Many casters are getting a stacking temporay SP proc on spell cast ability, what are the chances that spell song SP proc that used to be 20-30 sp and is now 10 temporary sp that DO NOT STACK, is actually going to stack with those SP? I'm going to guess zero chance?
    There are definitely issues with the way the devs converted the core songs for Spellsingers. However I don't get the impression that they are as bad as you mention here. I've encountered a number of players in parties that are not geared to the point that my songs have no effect. Inspire Excellence, Inspire Competence, Inspire Courage, and some nice bonuses available *outside* of the ED work quite nicely.

    I'd agree that the devs should reconsider the mechanics in the Spell Song, and Arcane Might. Going back to the original ticks of sp would be boss. Changing the bonus type given by Arcane Might would be boss as well. But these are not the only Bard abilities available to the PrC. And, as such, they do need re-evaluation. But none of this renders the Bard useless. I strongly disagree there. Just as my Warchanter operated for a long time with Inspire Recklessness and Song of Heroism diminished to not being useful - I used my other abilities to contribute to the party's success.

    I will be the first to admit that a duo or static group that uses fascinate is going to be effective, but I play the real game that 99% of the rest of the players play, that just about never includes waiting for the Bard to fascinate, except in Epic Von 6's.
    I think you might have missed that even if you have an AOE spammer in party that Fascinate initially takes effect. In the worst of situations, the opposing mobs miss an action before being 'woken up' The very small window of time involved allows the party to coordinate. I still run ahead invisible fascinating mobs, even in raid parties. Getting the mobs into a nice cluster for the AOE spammer, blitzer, or controlling class has great value. It saves sp and resources. Plus, it's fun to /dance in a large cluster of mobs when the party finally gets there. It's fun stuff...

    This isn't about your build, or your skills, it's not an attack on your stable of Bard characters that you love playing (gee I wonder why that person took it personal). If accusing me of sucking at playing bards soothes your hurt feelings over the truth, then fine: I suck at playing the weakest class in the game. Honestly who cares, we're not discussing anything that involves skill, so the repeated accusations look more and more defensive and emotional.
    It is absolutely about the skills and understanding of the stregnths of the Bard build they run. No hurt feelings, or negatives.

    I've built Elka for example to do some melee dps. And he does that well. While providing buffs, while controlling groups of mobs. While providing some healing, and while having fun playing him. Come tomorrow, he'll be better at all of that. And more...

    Hell, I'm even pulling Xiomirah out of storage to get her up to speed. I'll be back to running both Bards. And that makes me pretty happy.
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  10. #70
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Let's see...you think Fascinate is less than, what, Greater Command? And I think it's one of the most powerful CC abilities in the game. Well, I do suspect that one of our views is inexperienced.
    The comment was aimed squarely at the idea that anyone is using fascinate outside of static groups and special EE guild groups; i.e it is simply not used in most of the game, as no one wants to wait for you to sing it, and no one does. In groups where a bard zips ahead and facinates a room a few times, the mobs are all instantly released with the first AOE that lands, because again in the actual game, no one cares that you can make a mob not do anything until it's hit. Saying this is the best CC DC is only true if you only play your bard on the forums, or statics/guild EE runs.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    See, that's the kind of craziness I came to this thread to point out. You think the hybrid wannabe caster who has tons of other powerful abilities should also have DPS spells MORE powerful than that of the full-on caster classes. Sorry, that's total nonsense.
    Because Druids don't have tons of other powerful abilities? You came here to display a lack of understanding of where other casters are at DPS wise apparently and where they will be tomorrow!. Eye popping and gee wiz holy wow'ing over a couple SLA's that are comparable to Druid's SLA's excpet a more powerful DOT (But the Druid SLA DOT STACKS WITH GREATER) that start off with far better DPS in every other way, makes you look totally uninformed.

    Seriously you seem to have no idea what's coming in the pass or just how much better most caster classes are at everything. That crazyness as you call it is a pale shade of what Wizards are getting (they will be able to take Pale Master tier 5's and Archmage up to tier 4's... Something like 7 or 8 SLA's without looking at the PDF... You are thinking about live caster DPS and comparing my suggestion to it.... Meanwhile the field has long since lapped Bards on Lam.

    [/QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    No, he can't. Have you ever played, or even ran with an Arti? If you didn't go get yourself a DR-breaker, sure, that Arti can help, but NOT "also" on top of giving you +1W. One or the other, buddy. Sorry.
    I didn't say they could put both on, just that having the right metal type on the whole party is worth more in DPS than Inspire courage's damage bonus. Even if Deadly is a wash with IC an Arti brings more to the Party than a Bard so having slightly less damage buff is okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    You know Haste isn't an Arti spell, right? And that anyone, of any class, can build Greensteel Haste clickies if they care? And that Haste comes in potions? OOOH, Arties can Haste!
    I stand corrected, I'm not going to cop out and say I meant with a clickie. I don't know why I thought they had haste but whatever not going to try and squirm out of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    I get tons of useful buffs from most Bards I run with. I'm sorry you haven't figured out how to make your Bard give useful buffs.
    And I'm sorry you have no idea how many of your buffs did nothing, even after I've tried to tell you. This is not some secret I've been keeping, lots of people around here have talked about it in other Bard threads. Anyway have fun wasting songs on players who already have that buff. As long as you never know, you can continue to feel useful

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Druids get Heal so pure Bards are gimp? That doesn't make any sense, as those 2 statements, whether true or false on their own, have nothing to do with each other.
    Let me explain: A Bard has to go pure 20 to get Heal and a Flavortastic but totally useless 50sp wail of the banshee. A 20 Bard took at least 4 levels that did almost no good from a min/max standpoint... No extra feats, no evasion, no extra spell levels. The payoff now will be that they can cast a spell that Druids (that already do better DPS) get at 17th level. Hurray for getting second shrift.


    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Who said anything about CC "casting"? You just said "CC". Maybe you have "an inexperienced view of how Fascinate actually works". But you must be joking...you're talking about 3 points of Heighten DC on SPELLS a Bard doesn't have, and ignoring the dozens of points of DC the Bard is ahead from using their Perform skill.
    And you're ignoring that in the real actual game that people play, fascinate is hardly used, and almost always overrun and obviated by players who do not care how high your DC is to make mobs stand still until hit a single time. Effectively useless except in VERY specific situations where is it increadibly usefull and powerful (in groups that cooperate at a high level).

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    I can't speak for Madmatt, but I don't see any uncomfortable truths, and certainly don't care about attacking the messenger of these mythical truths.
    You don't see them because you don't want to. No matter, I'm not the only one who's noticed that many Bard songs give out bonuses that have been made available on gear, in ED's and via ship buffs. If you refuse to believe it that's your problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    You keep saying lots of stuff. Some of it is meaningless opinion I don't care about, and some of it is fine. Some of it is "objectively wrong", which I'm having fun pointing out. And some of it is really stupid suggestions that I'm shooting down.
    Actually all you've done is correct me on one thing which I admit to being wrong about. You display a distinct lack of familiarity with whats going down tomorrow, and ignore specific examples of ways Bard's have lost power on an already weak class. (See buffs that don't stack with Ship buffs/gear/ED's) Songs stopping you in your tracks, or being interrupted by movement, Nerf of Spell Singer SP proc to a much worse temp 10 SP, and a bunch of abilities tied to facinate which are only useful to statics/guild runs in other words weak for the overall game played by most people.

    If you're having fun I'll chalk it up to the bliss that is natural to anyone who ignores things over and over.


    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Do you like playing a Bard?
    I enjoyed the first 17 levels, at which point I felt like the Bard wasn't bringing much to the party. When you sing Song of Arcane Might/Spell song trance on a player who already has +DC's, -10% SP cost and increased MCL from gear and ED's, it's a bit deflating, you spent two songs on nothing, not only that but the WHOLE PARTY stood around waiting for you to finish (Yes I sing on the run as well but people stop when they hear a bard song a lot of the times, so you tend to stop too). But hey at least when I sung songs he got hit for 20 - 30 SP... Oh yeah that's turning into 10 temp SP that probably wont stack with his "absolute zero" and various other thematic names for stacking temp spell points on cast. With some buffs in the pass I might have picked him back up. But he's left so far behind that I can't figure out how to keep the Bard levels, except as pure flavor.

  11. #71
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Actually started planning my bard life, one thing I think that would be incredibly synergistic with a warchanter would be a 1 or 2 cleric splash. You'd be able to take full ranks of heal at that point to get your devotion up a little more, and since you'd have some cha you could pick up divine might for the insightful addition to str. Then mix the rest in with probably fighter since I don't care for barb mixes since raging prevents casting.

  12. #72
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    @ironclan

    arti's don't get haste they get armor of speed which is the melee attack speed bonus

  13. #73
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Actually started planning my bard life, one thing I think that would be incredibly synergistic with a warchanter would be a 1 or 2 cleric splash. You'd be able to take full ranks of heal at that point to get your devotion up a little more, and since you'd have some cha you could pick up divine might for the insightful addition to str. Then mix the rest in with probably fighter since I don't care for barb mixes since raging prevents casting.
    16 bard/2 Fighter/2 Cleric?

    You can take divine might with this to can't you?

  14. #74
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    This is one of the things that I mentioned in my original post which you just glossed over. All bards basically got the virtuoso songs. Enthrallment at level 3 spellsinger which is awesome do you have any clue what that means. It means fascinate just got more effective for virtually all bards in game. Sustaining song level 4 spellsinger which warchanter and spellsinger can pick up. The list goes on bards got a bump. You have not given any evidence otherwise.
    They HAVE been given a bump, but everything else in the pass except Pali's where shot out of a catapult. This is where we're not seeing eye to eye.

    Wizes can be BOTH PM and Archmage at the same time! THATS EIGHT SLA'S. Sorc savants can have Cold (or Fire) and Electric (that's 5 or 6 SLA's) at the same time (at least it looks like they can I haven't tried to use two savant trees and wont until tomorrow on my 2 pali 18 Air savant). Druids get up to 6 SLA's in one PrE, Clerics have theoretically 13 SLA's to choose from, they can maybe take 9 of them at the same time [edit] wait no a Divine Disciple can get 8 SLA's before even looking at the other Cleric PrE's for low hanging fruit. So probably more than 9 SLA's The vast bulk of these are available before 6th level. Bards? Two SLA's if you go pure 20... Enjoy.
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 08-18-2013 at 11:50 PM.

  15. #75
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    @ironclan

    arti's don't get haste they get armor of speed which is the melee attack speed bonus
    Ah that explains it, thanks.

  16. #76
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Bards . . . have "all is fine" fanbois.

    Next you'll be telling me that paladins aren't terrible.
    This would be the first time anything I've said would be considered to be a fanboi response. And I'm puzzled...

    I've a long standing history with disagreement with either lack of inclusion or outright skipping of core abilities for classes that are deemed to be weaker. I get trolled all the time about that.

    They do need to address the issues that appear to exist regarding things in the Bard trees. I just don't think that the class is unplayable or completely broken as the OP is suggesting.

    Palladins, *sigh*, yeah that's a different tale altogether. I've a toon that's been struggling to fit into endgame since MotU. Previous to that he was a near maxxed geared, well built raid tank. And he will be hurt by the changes this Xpac brings... hurt again.

    I think that most of the negatives I've read and heard about so far center around people either playing pure Bards, or players not utilizing the utlity of multiclass Bards. Because the Bard cannot Mass Heal, it can't heal at all. Because the bard cannot achieve dc's equal to a Wizard/Sorcerer or have it's spells it sucks. Because the Bard cannot achieve melee damage equal to the Barbarian, it's terrible.

    They are missing how the Jack of all Trades, Master of None works.
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  17. #77
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    16 bard/2 Fighter/2 Cleric?

    You can take divine might with this to can't you?
    yup that's the whole point of the cleric levels, another way to increase str for more dmg while leveling. Since I'm not taking the toon epic either that means for the most part it's the only source of insightful str so I don't even need to worry about that. The only thing I'm not sure on is how many fighter levels I'll take.

    edit
    the cleric levels will also let me pick up divine favor, nightshield, and prot evil.

  18. #78
    Blogger and Hatchery Hero
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    i jes read your big ol wall-o-text, and the only thing that comes to mind is...

    BARDS

    ARE

    NOT

    A

    CASTER

    CLASS.




    get that out of your mind. they are generalists. jack of all trades master of none. asking for a bard to get a big nuke, or an SLA that does as much damage as a pure caster is the equivalent of asking the same abilities in a ranger or a rogue. sounds silly doesn't it. now you know how we feel reading your suggestions.

    i can already feel the rebuttals building, so let me clarify... as you have pointed out more than once... they only get up to level 6 spells. does that sound like a caster to you? doesn't sound like one to me. their buffs are NOT useless, so quit spreading nasty lies. i've already pointed out how i think you're wrong, and you haven't answered to prove your point, you just keep ranting.

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  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    They HAVE been given a bump, but everything else in the pass except Pali's where shot out of a catapult. This is where we're not seeing eye to eye.

    Wizes can be BOTH PM and Archmage at the same time! THATS EIGHT SLA'S. Sorc savants can have Cold (or Fire) and Electric (that's 5 or 6 SLA's) at the same time (at least it looks like they can I haven't tried to use two savant trees and wont until tomorrow on my 2 pali 18 Air savant). Druids get up to 6 SLA's in one PrE, Clerics have theoretically 13 SLA's to choose from, they can maybe take 9 of them at the same time [edit] wait no a Divine Disciple can get 8 SLA's before even looking at the other Cleric PrE's for low hanging fruit. So probably more than 9 SLA's The vast bulk of these are available before 6th level. Bards? Two SLA's if you go pure 20... Enjoy.
    mmm. hate to break it to ya, but unless i missed something or read something wrong... bards aren't getting heal and wail as SLA's. they get added to the bard's spellbook as level 6 spells. so looks like bards get NO SLAs.

    no offense dude but this is really starting to come off like "all the caster classes are getting shiny toys (SLAs) and i'm not getting any~! wahhhh!!!"
    problem is... bard's aren't "casters". yeah, sure they have a blue bar. but as you are so fond of pointing out, their spells only go up to 6th level. that will never EVER compete with a REAL caster, no matter how many SLAs we may or may not ever get.

    sorry you can't enjoy your bard for what it is instead of what you're trying to force it to be.

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  20. #80
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by katz View Post

    no offense dude but this is really starting to come off like "all the caster classes are getting shiny toys (SLAs) and i'm not getting any~! wahhhh!!!"
    And no offense to you but you've already had one post removed because of the emotional content of your argument, and that's why I haven't responded to you. Just saying "Bard buffs are fine" either says that you don't mind losing power on a weak class (or will just accept anything willingly) or shows that you are unwilling to look at the class objectively. I'm not interested in arguing with someone who denies that bard buffs being given out on items and ED abilities hurts the class. I think attitudes where someone is willing to accept or justify anything at all do not need anyone to argue against them because most reasonable people will disregard it anyway.

    Again "wozers and geewilikers those SLA's are totally over powered" just means you're not seeing the forest for the trees. Those SLA's just give Bards a still very weak comparative spell DPS option, where other "utility/support" classes still are miles ahead in DPS.

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