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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I am sorry that you do not know how to play a bard.
    I didn't want to put it to him quite that baldly. :-)

  2. #42
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    jugg

    arti extra feats
    monk extra feats
    able to do paladin for extra saves or ranger for more feats
    reconstruct

    Bard

    Can't be a monk
    Can't be a pally
    Doesn't have heal or recon, meaning you'll need empower healing to boost your cures high enough
    No extra feats
    No built in trapping but can splash rogue for traps and evasion
    No level boost to wands, scrolls, and clickies

    Not saying that would be impossible to come up with a good bard but it's definately harder and has a lot more limitations than a jugg does.
    Bard has far fewer limitation than jug does - youre gonna see this be a lot more apparent when jug is WF and bard can be any race and be equally as effective. Now that most of the feat requirements are removed this will lean even more in the bard builds favor.

    Bard can be splashed for both melee and ranged, in the same build, NP.
    CCW + CSW each hit for alot and can be chain cast quickly - can tailor this to whatever metamagics and heal amp one prefers.
    Regenerating mana
    Better buffs - and the more people in the party, the better this gets.
    ~equivalent damage output
    Not limited to WF race - so post enhancement pass there will be ALOT more flavors of good bards builds.
    Stops entire hallways full of mobs and doesn't need to sacrifice damage to do so.

    Heres the real kicker. Bard configures itself to do what the party lacks. Not only is it ~similar DPS output as the other FOTM, but if I already have oodles of FOTM in the party, I can hold it down as a healer CCer. These other self healing killing machines with some utility are just that and nothing more. The bard can equal them in their self healing and killing while bettering their utility, but can handle party healing and CC better than them.

    People were posting that melee arty didn't contribute enough to justify a group slot until they saw the videos and it became the FOTM. The same myth exists for bards, and existed for ranger over a long period of time. All were, and are currently, incorrect myths. Im just surprised that those who have been able to see the light on rangers and melee arty, still think bards are a bottom feeder class.
    Last edited by Chai; 08-18-2013 at 04:48 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  3. #43
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    Going to agree here.

    Earlier this morning I finally logged in over on lam and my bard was the first toon I tested out. The transition was easy, and he gained quite a bit. More songs, more melee damage, rage that allows me to eliminate barb from his level split, more umd, more versatility...

    Pure, or splashed bard is stronger come the enhancement pass. There are things that could be better targeted to them, but that is true for all of the classes in one form or another.

    The suggestions for abilities made by the OP are ludicrous. For the reasons SirValentine stated, and more.
    Again the Druid, Cleric Divine Disciple and Sorc trees are almost identical to what I proposed, with the Dev's having put the Heal and Wail in their not me, moving Heal off the cap actually makes it a tiny bit feasible to help splashed Bards. Any "over powered" you see is simply required to ungimp the class, in the face of the amazeballs stuff that Druids, Sorc's Cleric and Wizards are getting. Unfortunately people are approaching my suggestions from the standpoint of the current game and are clearly not familiar with whats coming in the pass.

    Bard's are getting LAPPED by the pack in the pass. They are a LITTLE bit stronger compared to live in a very limited way (facinate is better which is effectively of limited use in pugs due to how everyone else plays) and in fact in some ways they are actually weaker (their PrE focuses on songs that are obviated by how people play in 99% of pugs). Then there the temporary 10 spell points when singing songs that used to be around 25 non temporary. And they can no longer run while singing some songs, and will be stopped and rooted when they sing them if already running.

    I also think that people who say Bards are just fine don't actually pay attention to things like some songs not actually DOING ANYTHING because people already have that same buff from their ship, or from items in the game (set bonuses and things like Arcane augmentation)... So they're running around singing songs some of which are giving them a placebo effect enjoyment of contributing to groups when they actually aren't doing anything but scaling the mobs up.

    I realize that these words will be perceived as "harsh words" and an "attack" on Bards, but the truth is that many song bonuses are givin out on ship buffs and items and even ED's these days. Chances are that Spell singer song you just cast is not actually doing anything to the Wiz you just cast it on, he has both Arcane Augmentation and -10% spell cost already. He also in the pass may have something that gives him MORE temporary spell points and at a MUCH MUCH MUCH higher rate (30% chance on each spell they cast of stacking temporary SP)... Bye bye another Bard buff.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbyssalMage View Post
    I was looking forward to my bard until this post. I thought Bards were actually better after the enhancement pass. Granted some of the problems were not addressed but overall I was pleased with the progress. The one thing I did notice is it is more desirable now to stay pure because of the tier 5's options.
    From an enhancement point of view, only reason for staying pure would be to get a capstone.

    You only need 5 levels in a class to be able to choose the Tier 5 enhancements from it's trees.

    Just remember you can only choose Tier 5 enhancements from one tree though.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Hi not to be dismissive but please brush up on whats happening in the enhancement pass (I recommend the excellent PDF that is floating around here) to help put my suggestions into perspective.

    For example Druids get more SLA's than I suggested for Bard's and one of their SLA's is Creeping cold, a DOT very much like the one I propose for Bards, it comes at (IIRC) ML3, in fact every one of those SLA's is comperable to other SLA's in the pass, including the made up ones (New spells) I deliberately patterned ALL OF THE ABILITIES to be similar to others that are already in the pass. FvS's scourge is similar to reverb, The DOT SLA is nearly identical to Creeping Cold.

    In addition the Dev's are the ones that put Heal and Wail in the capstone, clearly understanding that almost no Bard's in the game make the mistake of taking level 17 or higher because of just how useless those levels are on a 6 spell level casting class. The problem is Heal at level 20 is a couple levels too late to be usefull or realsitic for 99% of the Bards in the game. and Wail is obviously pure flavor and not actually adding any power to the class because as you and everyone else knows even casters with 9 spell levels and thus a built in +3 DC advantage are having a hard time landing DC insta kills.
    no offence, but your list of suggested SLA's for bards makes it sound like you think they're arcane casters. this also explains why you seem to think why bards are weak. bards can cast spells, yes, but they will NEVER be on par with a wizard or a sorc. this is by design. bards are the consumate "Jack of all Trades". and do you know how the rest of that saying goes? "Jack of all Trades, master of none". anyone who expects a bard to be the BEST at ONE SINGLE THING... will fail at being a bard. bards are the master of doing it ALL and doing it well, even if not quite as well as the best.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Also realize that because Bards are SO FAR BEHIND (they are objectively the worst class in the game at every single thing they supposed to be good at)
    Buffing Arti > Bard as someone else pointed out... deadly weapons ends up being aproximately the same as the full + from bard song, nevermind the fact that arti buff is only to damage, not to hit like a bard's song is.
    CC any 9 spell level class > Bard lolwut? show me any DC based CC caster that can reach the same DC's even a dumped charisma bard can reach with their fascinate.
    Spell DPS any class that has a DPS spell > Bard well... yeah. duh.
    Healing EVERY group heal capable class > Bard and yet bards have solo healed many different raids. they aren't *quite* as good... but they can still be darn good, which is enough
    Melee, every weak melee including FvS, Arti, Cleric and Paladin > Bard. me and my eAGA (and my friend who i helped build a bard for with his twin khopeshes) would beg to differ on that point, thanks.
    Songs: Ship buffs > Bards lolwut?

    So sad even an inanimate ship buff pwns Bards. and they don't take up a party slot or raise scaling
    i'm looking forward to tomorrow. it will make my army of bards more powerful and even MORE versatile than they were before. sorry you don't feel the same about yours.

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  6. #46
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Hi not to be dismissive but please brush up on whats happening in the enhancement pass (I recommend the excellent PDF that is floating around here) to help put my suggestions into perspective.

    For example Druids get more SLA's than I suggested for Bard's and one of their SLA's is Creeping cold, a DOT very much like the one I propose for Bards, it comes at (IIRC) ML3, in fact every one of those SLA's is comperable to other SLA's in the pass, including the made up ones (New spells) I deliberately patterned ALL OF THE ABILITIES to be similar to others that are already in the pass. FvS's scourge is similar to reverb, The DOT SLA is nearly identical to Creeping Cold.

    In addition the Dev's are the ones that put Heal and Wail in the capstone, clearly understanding that almost no Bard's in the game make the mistake of taking level 17 or higher because of just how useless those levels are on a 6 spell level casting class. The problem is Heal at level 20 is a couple levels too late to be usefull or realsitic for 99% of the Bards in the game. and Wail is obviously pure flavor and not actually adding any power to the class because as you and everyone else knows even casters with 9 spell levels and thus a built in +3 DC advantage are having a hard time landing DC insta kills.

    Also realize that because Bards are SO FAR BEHIND (they are objectively the worst class in the game at every single thing they supposed to be good at)
    Buffing Arti > Bard
    CC any 9 spell level class > Bard
    Spell DPS any class that has a DPS spell > Bard
    Healing EVERY group heal capable class > Bard
    Melee, every weak melee including FvS, Arti, Cleric and Paladin > Bard.
    Songs: Ship buffs > Bards

    So sad even an inanimate ship buff pwns Bards. and they don't take up a party slot or raise scaling
    Spoken like a true specialist. You just pointed out how you can replace a bard, with 5 other characters. LOL

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Melee, every weak melee including FvS, Arti, Cleric and Paladin > Bard.
    Songs: Ship buffs > Bards
    Buffing Arti > Bard
    These are particularly false to the point of hilarity. For instance, on the bigger damage 2h weapons, deadly gives 9 points per hit, as does the bard song. For every TWF or every THF with less base damage, the bard song wins. This is before other buffs like rage, and inspire excellence take over, and put bard over the top for all case scenarios. Want deadly on 2 different sets of weapons and a bow, that's 3 casts for each person in the raid. Bard does equivalent or better for everyone in the raid with one song for all weapons. Arty buffs for the most part are single target cast. It can haste the raid group with 12 casts. Bards do it in one cast. It can give deadly with 8-12 casts. Bard courage is equivalent or better and happens in one song.

    And ship buffs? LOLOLOL. You cant be serious.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  7. #47
    Community Member arkonas's Avatar
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    i dont know about you but i looked at the bard trees and it made me want to play them actually. i hate bards too. before the pass i think they just weren't my thing but with the combination of spellsinger and virtuoso together it made me revisit them. So now im just waiting for them to go live so i can make one :P

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Spoken like a true specialist. You just pointed out how you can replace a bard, with 5 other characters...
    This, as a bard is some kind of jack-of-all-trades and I can't imagine that a Bard should outclass a Sorc or Wizard. On the other hand he has the unique ability of using his songs for buff and crowd control, but indeed for the later to work effectively you need a party capable to play with. But their biggest bonus is their versatility and the new enhancements increase on that regard.
    * We have collectable bags, hell even hireling folders, but can I have that 6-pack for my potions please?
    * Having already a past life on the dieng EU servers, I rerolled here and started from scratch as I like the game and the community, so lets see what awaits me here

  9. #49
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    These are particularly false to the point of hilarity. For instance, on the bigger damage 2h weapons, deadly gives 9 points per hit, as does the bard song. For every TWF or every THF with less base damage, the bard song wins. This is before other buffs like rage, and inspire excellence take over, and put bard over the top for all case scenarios. Want deadly on 2 different sets of weapons and a bow, that's 3 casts for each person in the raid. Bard does equivalent or better for everyone in the raid with one song for all weapons. Arty buffs for the most part are single target cast. It can haste the raid group with 12 casts. Bards do it in one cast. It can give deadly with 8-12 casts. Bard courage is equivalent or better and happens in one song.

    And ship buffs? LOLOLOL. You cant be serious.
    I wasn't aware just how few bard players realize that some of their song bonsues don't stack with ship buffs (and ED's items, set bonuses).

    I suppose if you run around thinking your song just boosted someone's abilities but it didn't actually and you don't realize it, you still feel useful

    Arti's have metal buffs, yellow damage with a Bard becomes full damage with an Arti. Also a Bard is a DPS deficit, as other have pointed out, 9 damage times 5 is less than what you're getting by adding a better DPS toon in the Bard's place, like perhaps an Arti?
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 08-18-2013 at 06:41 PM.

  10. #50
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    Default Bards are just fine

    Just curious, for those of you so disappointed with bards it doesn't sound like you've actually ever played a L25 bard in fatesinger ED. My first life dwarven 16 bard/2 fighter/2 rogue is a monster in epics and I barely have any gear, like a weapon master dwarf axe and purple dragon knight gloves. He would be a beast if fully geared out. Never underestimate the power of running around displaced all the time, self healing and loads of buffs/abilities, and of course fascinate which can make questing a breeze.. In the update with the dwarven tree this character will get even better. Sure, I lack the raw dps to shred things solo, but the character is a great grouping member and very fun to play.

  11. #51
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Hi not to be dismissive but please brush up on the spells you are talking about (I recommend the excellent www.ddowiki.com) to put my comments in perspective.
    Your post seems to be nitpicks about relative spell power and an inexperienced view of how Fascinate actually works (hint it is a situational only CC that is next to never used in pugs because no ones waiting for the Bard to tap his toes). If you have 5 running mates who wait for you to sing all the time, well good for you, for finding 5 people who are willing to help your Bard feel useful.

    The sonic DOT needs to be more powerful than Creeping Cold (which you don't seem to know how to use but that's a different subject) because the Bard unlike his "support" counter part the Druid, does not have an amazing array of spells going up to 9th level. Including MANY differing elements that can target vulnerabilities that a Bard doesn't have. The idea is to put the Bard a LITTLE closer to a Druid for offensive casting, but still inferior in everything except buffing the party.

    Your view of other classes being a wash at things the Bard is supposed to excel at are simply not supported by the realities within the game. An Arti gives everyone +1W and then goes on to actually contribute with Blade Barriers and DPS. But he also gives everyone Silver, or Adamantine... meaning his contribution can be FAR GREATER. A bard in a 6 man group is such a loss of DPS that his damage buff does not mitigate that. As others have pointed out you're getting much more DPS by leaving the Bard on the bench and bringing another DPS. An Arti suffers no such disadvantage, as it's actually good at DPS AND carries Buffs some the same, some that are far superior to the Bards (Metal types). Of course he hastes just like a Bard does.

    Once again Many of the Bard's buffs aren't actually doing anything at all, unfortunately uninformed players don't know that and so they argue by saying that SOME ship buffs don't duplicate Bard buffs. Druids heal better than Bards and do so in part with the Heal spell at 17 instead of 20 if you've gimped yourself by going pure Bard. Saying that minus three DC CC casting is as effective as other Casters is objectively wrong... the Bard is at -3 due to heightening only going to 6th spell level. Any ED way in which you might raise the Caster level is still at a -3 DC disadvantage. In a game where DC's have become increasingly hard to reach for casters with 9 spell levels... your assertions don't hold water.

    Mainly you and Madmatt just seem to want to attack the messenger for pointing out uncomfortable truths that you were (apparently) blissfully unaware of. Sad to break it to you, but no amount of "playing my bard well" is going to overcome math, and the objective realities of stacking rules, item availability, being rooted in place by songs, and 5 other people not wanting to wait around while I "contribute" via making 5 people's DPS drop to zero while I sing a song. (At this point someone will say zerg ahead and facinate, as if the game doesn't have zippy monks and FvS's shooting that fanciful notion down in flames, yes we've all argued this before, and all I can say is it's amazing what lengths people will go through to rationalize the weakest class in the game).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Your post seems to be nitpicks about relative spell power and an inexperienced view of how Fascinate actually works (hint it is a situational only CC that is next to never used in pugs because no ones waiting for the Bard to tap his toes). If you have 5 running mates who wait for you to sing all the time, well good for you, for finding 5 people who are willing to help your Bard feel useful.
    I think this is your problem. Bards really excel in difficult content, and they have CC when just about everything else fails. I read this statement about fascinate and I think the opposite. It is utterly unique and provides the best CC under the most difficult conditions. If that is not needed in the group, then no, the bard isn't as useful.

    I actually think Bards are more useful in EE content than in raids. There isn't nearly as much trash in the raids that is susceptible to fascinate (because red names and above are immune to fascinate). Bards are pretty fantastic for short-manning EE quests, however.

    If you don't do anything on EE, however, Bard fascinate is not all that useful unless you intentionally make the quest harder for yourself (red-alerting an elite quest).
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  13. #53
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    dude. you are really starting to just make me laugh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Your post seems to be nitpicks about relative spell power and an inexperienced view of how Fascinate actually works (hint it is a situational only CC that is next to never used in pugs because no ones waiting for the Bard to tap his toes). If you have 5 running mates who wait for you to sing all the time, well good for you, for finding 5 people who are willing to help your Bard feel useful.
    i mostly use fascinate when solo/small group with friends... special situations, and "Oh S***" moments. works great then. i have 4 bards, one of which has 2 past lives in which she could fascinate. trust me, i know well the shortcomings of people who don't know about fascinate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    The sonic DOT needs to be more powerful than Creeping Cold (which you don't seem to know how to use but that's a different subject) because the Bard unlike his "support" counter part the Druid, does not have an amazing array of spells going up to 9th level. Including MANY differing elements that can target vulnerabilities that a Bard doesn't have. The idea is to put the Bard a LITTLE closer to a Druid for offensive casting, but still inferior in everything except buffing the party.
    again, you seem to be under the impression that bards are a damage caster. let me make this crystal clear for you. THEY ARE NOT. if you want to play a damage caster, you are playing the WRONG CLASS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Your view of other classes being a wash at things the Bard is supposed to excel at are simply not supported by the realities within the game. An Arti gives everyone +1W and then goes on to actually contribute with Blade Barriers and DPS. But he also gives everyone Silver, or Adamantine... meaning his contribution can be FAR GREATER. A bard in a 6 man group is such a loss of DPS that his damage buff does not mitigate that. As others have pointed out you're getting much more DPS by leaving the Bard on the bench and bringing another DPS. An Arti suffers no such disadvantage, as it's actually good at DPS AND carries Buffs some the same, some that are far superior to the Bards (Metal types). Of course he hastes just like a Bard does.
    an arti is not gonna be able to give +1W AND metal type. gotta chose one or the other. and yes, an arti can help break more DRs. that's great. but everyone should have a DR breaker so they don't have to rely on NEEDING an arti in the party. it's a convenience, not a necessity. and a bard is better benched? LOL. alright. next time i'm in a group with my bard i'll just shoulder my eAGA and stand around picking my nose...and not do my normal 100-150 damage every swing (not even mentioning crits) and if anyone asks me i'll tell em someone on the internet told me bards can't DPS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Once again Many of the Bard's buffs aren't actually doing anything at all, unfortunately uninformed players don't know that and so they argue by saying that SOME ship buffs don't duplicate Bard buffs. Druids heal better than Bards and do so in part with the Heal spell at 17 instead of 20 if you've gimped yourself by going pure Bard. Saying that minus three DC CC casting is as effective as other Casters is objectively wrong... the Bard is at -3 due to heightening only going to 6th spell level. Any ED way in which you might raise the Caster level is still at a -3 DC disadvantage. In a game where DC's have become increasingly hard to reach for casters with 9 spell levels... your assertions don't hold water.
    funny. my 18th level 28 point build first lifer pure bard with crappy gear and 2 wasted feats (chest blesser) has been having no problems stopping things with disco balls and punching thru drow SR in elite quests currently. i know that will change the higher i get this will eventually change, because, as you pointed out... my spells only go up to level 6... but it is what it is... as I said... bards are not primary casters like wizards or sorcerers, or even druids are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Mainly you and Madmatt just seem to want to attack the messenger for pointing out uncomfortable truths that you were (apparently) blissfully unaware of. Sad to break it to you, but no amount of "playing my bard well" is going to overcome math, and the objective realities of stacking rules, item availability, being rooted in place by songs, and 5 other people not wanting to wait around while I "contribute" via making 5 people's DPS drop to zero while I sing a song. (At this point someone will say zerg ahead and facinate, as if the game doesn't have zippy monks and FvS's shooting that fanciful notion down in flames, yes we've all argued this before, and all I can say is it's amazing what lengths people will go through to rationalize the weakest class in the game).
    if you think people need to be rooted in place to get bard buffs, again, you're playing your bard wrong. i sing when i sing, if they aren't smart enough to be close enough, that's their problem, not mine. the only person who's DPS is gonna drop to 0 for the few seconds it takes me to sing is me... i sing on the run and mid fight if that's when it wears off, then i start swinging or running again.

    i'll say it now, and i'll say it again as many times as i have to, if you honestly truely think bards are the "weakest class in the game" then YOU ARE PLAYING BARDS WRONG

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    I have a bard, paladin, druid and monk.

    The monk is making out like a bandit, and it's a long way down to who's making out next-best but it might be my bard. At least there's a reason to take bard levels and invest in bard enhancements if you want to be a bard.

    There's no good reason to invest in more than 4 paladin levels (my pally is going to be a fighter with 4 pally splash), and I might litterally invest in no druid enhancements in my 17 druid/3monk putting them all in monk (or I might pick up scroll mastery from druid and stop there). Druid enhancements are that bad.

    Bard is a weaker class than when I made my bard 3.5 years ago, due mostly to proxy nerfs and poor sca aling, but I still feel pretty useful. If nothing else regenerating SP + cocoon + renewal + juiced up heal scrolls = a ton of basically endless healing. Now that we can get heal also bards will make a great healing option for long quests.

    Melee bards can make out great after the pass also, they just need to splash heavier. You only really need 10 bard levels for haste, rage, cure crit, and displacement, that gives you room for fighter 8 for kensai +1 crit range, and 2 more levels for whatever (rogue is a good choice). Everything thinks juggernauts are great, but bards can do basically the same thing, and now they can do it while being a kensai.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Your post seems to be nitpicks about relative spell power
    Sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    and an inexperienced view of how Fascinate actually works
    Let's see...you think Fascinate is less than, what, Greater Command? And I think it's one of the most powerful CC abilities in the game. Well, I do suspect that one of our views is inexperienced.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    The sonic DOT needs to be more powerful than Creeping Cold (which you don't seem to know how to use but that's a different subject) because the Bard unlike his "support" counter part the Druid, does not have an amazing array of spells going up to 9th level.
    Color & bold added.

    See, that's the kind of craziness I came to this thread to point out. You think the hybrid wannabe caster who has tons of other powerful abilities should also have DPS spells MORE powerful than that of the full-on caster classes. Sorry, that's total nonsense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    An Arti gives everyone +1W
    <snip>
    But he also gives everyone Silver, or Adamantine... meaning his contribution can be FAR GREATER.
    No, he can't. Have you ever played, or even ran with an Arti? If you didn't go get yourself a DR-breaker, sure, that Arti can help, but NOT "also" on top of giving you +1W. One or the other, buddy. Sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Of course he hastes just like a Bard does.
    You know Haste isn't an Arti spell, right? And that anyone, of any class, can build Greensteel Haste clickies if they care? And that Haste comes in potions? OOOH, Arties can Haste!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Once again Many of the Bard's buffs aren't actually doing anything at all
    I get tons of useful buffs from most Bards I run with. I'm sorry you haven't figured out how to make your Bard give useful buffs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Druids heal better than Bards and do so in part with the Heal spell at 17 instead of 20 if you've gimped yourself by going pure Bard.
    Druids get Heal so pure Bards are gimp? That doesn't make any sense, as those 2 statements, whether true or false on their own, have nothing to do with each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Saying that minus three DC CC casting is as effective as other Casters is objectively wrong... the Bard is at -3 due to heightening only going to 6th spell level.
    Who said anything about CC "casting"? You just said "CC". Maybe you have "an inexperienced view of how Fascinate actually works". But you must be joking...you're talking about 3 points of Heighten DC on SPELLS a Bard doesn't have, and ignoring the dozens of points of DC the Bard is ahead from using their Perform skill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Mainly you and Madmatt just seem to want to attack the messenger for pointing out uncomfortable truths that you were (apparently) blissfully unaware of.
    I can't speak for Madmatt, but I don't see any uncomfortable truths, and certainly don't care about attacking the messenger of these mythical truths.

    You had it closer at the top: "Your post seems to be nitpicks".

    You keep saying lots of stuff. Some of it is meaningless opinion I don't care about, and some of it is fine. Some of it is "objectively wrong", which I'm having fun pointing out. And some of it is really stupid suggestions that I'm shooting down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Sad to break it to you, but no amount of "playing my bard well" is going to overcome...
    <entire long rant about how miserable it is to be a Bard omitted>
    Do you like playing a Bard?

  16. #56
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    What is a bard not doing that a jug can?
    Splash monk for saves/evasion.

    Splash pally for saves.

    easily fit in manyshot without a deep-splash.

    Reconstruct (bards get heal now if pure, but I'm not sure I want to stay pure anymore).

    There's more but I don't care that much about this issue to be a strong advocate.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Splash monk for saves/evasion.

    Splash pally for saves.

    easily fit in manyshot without a deep-splash.

    Reconstruct (bards get heal now if pure, but I'm not sure I want to stay pure anymore).

    There's more but I don't care that much about this issue to be a strong advocate.

    splash rogue for evasion and trapping

    go half elf dilly paladin if you need the high saves.

    ok, manyshot is a tough one, but doable. possibly splash ranger.

    reconstruct scrolls and wand and scroll mastery.


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  18. #58
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    I wasn't aware just how few bard players realize that some of their song bonsues don't stack with ship buffs (and ED's items, set bonuses).

    I suppose if you run around thinking your song just boosted someone's abilities but it didn't actually and you don't realize it, you still feel useful
    Which ship buffs are giving +9 hit/damage? Yeah, when my bard buff overwrites the ship buff because its doing MORE, its the ship buff that isn't useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Arti's have metal buffs, yellow damage with a Bard becomes full damage with an Arti. Also a Bard is a DPS deficit, as other have pointed out, 9 damage times 5 is less than what you're getting by adding a better DPS toon in the Bard's place, like perhaps an Arti?
    Its not hard to get weapons that break any DR in this game. eAGA for example. With bows its even easier. Us vets had 5 years of conditioning on this before artys were even implemented in DDO. Those claiming that bards are getting outed in DPS by artys in epic levels, haven't played bards, or with those who know how to make a good one. Bards have decent DPS when built right - its not just 9 X # of people in the group. Its more like 11 per hit x # of people in the group + another fury shotting/2hf melee in the group. Same DPS as juggernaught, more DPS than ranged arty, and utility that is both more convenient and higher quality for buffing entire parties.

    Artys are easier to level due to blade barrier in heroics, but that's about it and they don't even get that til 15th at the soonest.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  19. #59
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Splash monk for saves/evasion.

    Splash pally for saves.

    easily fit in manyshot without a deep-splash.

    Reconstruct (bards get heal now if pure, but I'm not sure I want to stay pure anymore).

    There's more but I don't care that much about this issue to be a strong advocate.
    Bard can already get many shot with minor splashes and now that most of the feat requirements are gone, its even easier. Even multiclassed bards can heal themselves as well, because CCW and CSW are subject to hAmp + meta(s) + devotion (and soon) heal skill.

    I don't think that melee artys are bad toons, in fact I have been playing one since a few weeks after they came out, im just saying its completely contradictory for people to talk up melee arty builds and then act like bard is a piking/buffing class/haggle bot.
    Last edited by Chai; 08-18-2013 at 08:38 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The output of my bards is the same as my melee arty, as are my saves. I guess it shouldn't surprise me, as people were talking about how melee artys sucked in EE until Haek and those guys posted their videos of how crazy they are in tough content, and only after that, did it become FOTM. No one has posted a video of 6 melee bards doing the same, but they are equally capable, and have been for quite some time now.
    Ive seen a couple of bards like this in action they are all splashed have manyshot and are often in Fotw or LD........ more than a few barbs have rage quit the party because the bard was out killing them. Im sure the barbs, also monks, monkchers have more dps thats for certain but these players playing the bards knew what they where doing, plus had better self heals, and longer displacements and other buffs, and had CC from fascinate for emergencies. They where all spellsinger's though, they told me the extra sp was worth the cost over what warchanters gave.

    Im a little bit looking forward to changes to bards, they could use a bit more love like some SLA's but the ones the OP suggested are a bit over the top imho. esp the heal and mass cure serious as a SLA.........

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