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  1. #1
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Default What will you LR your Bard into? Or unwanted step child of the Pass/DDO

    I'm tired of hearing the Pali moaning. Bards got shafted the worst (i.e. pretty much no buffs in the pass on easily the weakest class in the game, compared to Pali's getting a couple uneeded Nerfs on merely a weak class)... But Pali's are a close second I admit.

    Look I have a capped Bard and 15 or 16 other Alts I think I have a fairly "forest for the trees" view of the Enhancement pass after going through each one and thinking of the cool new imaginative builds that will be possible (and more than a few that will break, but be possible to do something similar). My Bard of all my characters is the one I keep ending up with ZERO original class levels in. No Bard levels, there's just not enough meat on that Bone, everything else is looking so much better.

    Bards basically are staring at SLA's coming out of every caster PrE's bee-hind and wondering what they did to anger the Devs so much. Sorcs got 3 to 4 SLA's each PrE that need 5 or less class levels, Druids got SLA's tier 5 and lower, Clerics got SLA's tier 5 and lower, FvS's splashed Cleric and got SLA's Wiz's already had some and got more (PM+AM)...

    Lowely Bards... don't get anything until level 20 pure... a travesty when the Devs were talking about "Wall of sound" and other stuff they obviously weren't actually developing but just had on a whiteboard in one of the meeting rooms. Bards not only got shafted, they got weaker versions of some of their old WEAK ABILITIES.

    A Buffing class who's buffs have been given away by ship buffs and other newer classes, that has negligible casting DPS, no dots, and DC casting with only 6 spell levels in our current game that has hard DC's for 9th spell level casters, with no free feats or meta's given, with weak heals compared to Druids (let alone FvS or Cleric), and weak melee compared to Druids or Pali's... Oh but you can get a -3 DC wail of the Banshee and hey, here let us throw you the heal spell, at 20th level when Druids and their 9 spell levels get it at 17th. I guess this is a mocking of all those pure bards out there (you know for all 11 of them that exist in the game heheh ) as Making the DC work will make that bard even more special, than he already was by taking 4 nearly empty levels (17 through 20)

    Anyway maybe some other Bard players will speak up, and hey before you say "my gimpy bard is lovable" take a look at all the PrE's and then the Bard's. The problem is the class has been so neglected by the Dev's for so long that it's very unpopular, and thus has little to no "squeeky wheel" power. Even mashing two former PrE's into one PrE didn't buff the class significantly.

    Sorc's already have Dev concessions and another PrE coming, Clerics yelled up some Warpriest also upcoming, and I expect Pali's to get some abilities added when the pass goes live and we hear all the HOWLING from the TWF Pali's.

    Bard's need love too for starters keeping it simple patterned the same as Druid/Sorc/Cleric SLA's:

    Core SLA's
    ML1: Sonic Blast SLA
    ML3: Resonant Cacophony (Sonic DOT, see New Spells)
    ML12: Wall of Sound (Same one you guys were white boarding but never added)
    ML18: Heal SLA
    ML20: Same as current pass except Heal replaced with Cure Serious Mass

    Tier abilities:
    ML1
    Dissonant Echos
    On sonic cast: 10/20/30% chance of stacking sonic/Enchantment debuff -1/-2/-3 Enchantment save, 10/20/30% sonic vulnerability 1/2/3 stacks 12/15/20 duration

    ML2
    Eruption
    2/3/4% chance for a Greater Shout Proc (including stun chance) on any Sonic damage hit (Melee, ranged, spell or ED)

    ML3
    Reverberation
    Temp SP proc chance on sonic or enchantment spells

    ML5
    Anvil of Thunder (area damage SLA see new spells)

    New (or improved) Spells:
    Soundburst, add +1 damage per caster level
    Sound Lance as per Ice Lance no save direct damage ray (a real actual PnP Spell IIRC)
    Greater Sonic Blast, level 3, Stun instead of Daze, 1d4+3 per caster level max 15
    Shout and Greater shout, improve these so they are not so damn finicky and hard to use effectively... they are conical supposedly but Shout is next to useless and greater usually only hits one target if that due to targeting issues (supposedly conical AOE)
    Resonant Cacophony: as per Divine Punishment/Niacs Stacking DOT no save
    Wall of sound check your whiteboard
    Anvil of Thunder level 6: AOE over time as per Ice storm, bludeon damage and sonic damage + chance to knock down like comet fall/Earth quake on knockdown save applies brief stun instead

    What say you Devs, the Pass enhancements for Bards look nothing like the exciting preview we saw it feels like Charlie brown kicking a football, only you let Sorc's Cleric's etc. kick it afterward. Give us a new Bard PrE after you guys get done making Sorc's, Cleric's and then Pali's happier.

  2. #2
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Sad thing,

    I was figuring out what lives I had left and what builds to go with for my completionist wannabe. I knew I was forgetting one when I was coming up with the list off the top of my head. Bard, and I actually had to think a moment to figure it out, why? Because you never see one in game anymore with how weak they've become. At least pre-motu they had they're uses even if they weren't very popular, now......

  3. #3
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Bard was my favorite class in PnP. I've had a couple fun bards in DDO, but they were not pure.

    I was excited to hear about wail and heal, but at level 20? Hmm, that means giving up a lot as you have to stay pure. And at that point, I can scroll heal just as well, if not quite as fast. Wail will probably be fairly pointless at 20. It might have been useful leveling had it been available when wizzes get it. It certainly won't do much with bard DCs in epic levels. I can see it now, dive in with a wizard, toss your wail and watch it kill nothing. And then the wiz casts and everything in the room drops dead. Yeah, that'll be exciting.

    Sonic spell power looks like it will be able to be ramped up to something significantly better than it is now. I like sonic damage a lot as there aren't too many creatures resistant or immune to it. This is worth working for.

    The combining of SS and Virt is fairly useful for buffbot types. I'm not a buffbot. Warchanter is disappointing, especially for someone who is not a concert pianist. WC gets quite a few abilities that are useful, but the duration is 6 seconds. I'm not good at punching 15 keys and watching the cooldowns on each one. I guess I'm getting to old for DDO as it seems to be heading in this direction and forcing everyone to be ADD and have the playstyle of a monkey on crack. Clickies on a melee or a monk is one thing, but bards already have to sing songs, buff, toss heals, and now we're going to throw in a half dozen 6 second abilities with varying cooldowns? My wiz will have fewer hotbars on screen. It's too much. There should have been a lot more passive bard abilities so we could concentrate on being, you know... bards.

    But yeah, overall I'm not really happy with bard. I had potential plans to TR my completionist into bard after the enhancement pass, but I'm thinking wizard now. Bard just looks... meh. I could save it with a little splash of something, but then lose wail, heal, and what little spell ability (other than buffs) that he had.

    It's very frustrating to be so close yet so far.

    And yeah, I played my pally life thinking very similar thoughts. Wow, what a great class it almost is. But as it stands, I understand why everyone splashes 2 levels and that's it. You get most of the basic benefits, but then you can move on to a class that can actually kill stuff.

    I've got a first life pure bard in epic levels, maybe I'll play with his +20 LR and see how it goes.

    But I've got half a mind to just chuck it and go hiking or finish one of my many other projects. Spending so much time to be frustrated again doesn't really appeal to me at this point.
    Last edited by AzB; 08-18-2013 at 12:02 AM.

  4. #4
    Community Member TempestAlphaOmega's Avatar
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    Default So True

    I have a TR Bard that was one of my first toons in DDO. I have reworked him several times over the years to try and make him as helpful to the party as possible while retaining his "fun" level for me.

    He got to level 23 shortly after the last expansion and has been sitting there basically unused. Yes I suffer from altitis but in the past he used to get his turn out of the stable several times a week. I had high hopes for him getting some very needed balancing during the enhancement pass (along with my Pally) and after repeatedly revamping him on Lamannia I have come to the conclusion that he is one of a few toons that I will actually need to use the +20 LR on (that and my pure Pally).

    I like what they did with many of the other class changes, some things are not done the way I would have done it but the end result is either about the same level of usefulness and fun to somewhat better, but not for Bards or Pally players (not talking about shallow splashes here).

    More than a bit disappointed about this but at least I have other toons I will enjoy playing.....
    Shapshap, League of Extraordinary Ham, Sarlona and a bunch of alts that all have names begining with Sha or Sho. Of course Shapshap could be the alt and one of the others the main, it just depends on what day it is.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Bards got shafted the worst
    That may or may not be true; I played a Bard to level 20 once, then TRed, so I'm no expert.

    However, your suggestions are over-the-top rediculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Core SLA's
    <snip>
    ML3: Resonant Cacophony (Sonic DOT, see New Spells)
    <snip>
    Resonant Cacophony: as per Divine Punishment/Niacs Stacking DOT no save
    So a hybrid partial caster should get a DOT fully as powerful as that of the full casting classes?

    And while the full casters get access to their DOT spells, AS SPELLS, at class level 9 or 10, Bards should get this, AS AN SLA, at LEVEL THREE?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    ML18: Heal SLA
    ML20: Same as current pass except Heal replaced with Cure Serious Mass
    At level TWENTY, FvS who stay pure can get CURE LIGHT WOUNDS as an SLA. Bards should get HEAL as an SLA, at only level 18? And MASS CURE SERIOUS?

    These suggestions are crazy unbalanced overpowered.

    I love having Bards in my party. I haven't noticed anyone else excluding them either. They bring so much to a party already.

  6. #6
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Because you never see one in game anymore with how weak they've become.
    Group I was in yesterday had three Bards total. My Virtuoso and a couple Warchanters. Even outside that group I still run into them but that might be more related to the fact that I use user channels and guilds to get my groups, not the average pug. I don't feel the class is weak, I feel most players simply suck at playing them.
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  7. #7
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    Group I was in yesterday had three Bards total. My Virtuoso and a couple Warchanters. Even outside that group I still run into them but that might be more related to the fact that I use user channels and guilds to get my groups, not the average pug. I don't feel the class is weak, I feel most players simply suck at playing them.
    Just curious, how many of those were pure?

    And discussing a bard's relative power is going to be different tomorrow than it was yesterday. Right now, it is fairly easy to get a bard that is a team player but can still be fun to play by splashing other classes for specific skills. Tomorrow, things may be very different. Just sayin'.

  8. #8
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    Turbine can gimp bard beyond nothing for all I care, if they'd just throw in some different sound files and take the dopplar effect away.

  9. #9
    The Hatchery
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    I think Bard actually got quite a nice boost in this pass. Especially pure bards.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    I think Bard actually got quite a nice boost in this pass. Especially pure bards.
    They did, but compared to the ridiculous OP buffs to everything else, they are further behind than they currently are.

  11. #11
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    I am going to LR my old warchanter bard into a super high haggle bank mule. NO joke.

  12. #12
    Uber Uber Completionist
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Because you never see one in game anymore with how weak they've become.
    It'll still be an interesting splash to have. Pure bard can be a bit dull, but throw in some barbarian and rogue and you're laughing. There's maybe not a lot of excitement in the current bard trees but 3 ranks in the Tier 4 High Spirits makes you immune to a lot of Fatigue effects and Frozen Fury can be cute. On the playabout build I'm looking at, I have a half-orc 28 pointer with a naked 48 STR. It's not earth shattering, it's not not terrible either. Stick some gear and ED's on it and it's got potential.

  13. #13
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    Group I was in yesterday had three Bards total. My Virtuoso and a couple Warchanters. Even outside that group I still run into them but that might be more related to the fact that I use user channels and guilds to get my groups, not the average pug. I don't feel the class is weak, I feel most players simply suck at playing them.
    Going to agree here.

    Earlier this morning I finally logged in over on lam and my bard was the first toon I tested out. The transition was easy, and he gained quite a bit. More songs, more melee damage, rage that allows me to eliminate barb from his level split, more umd, more versatility...

    Pure, or splashed bard is stronger come the enhancement pass. There are things that could be better targeted to them, but that is true for all of the classes in one form or another.

    The suggestions for abilities made by the OP are ludicrous. For the reasons SirValentine stated, and more.
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  14. #14
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    I tried during beta multiple times to try and get a conversation going with regards to spellsinger bards being buffed abit. Of course most of replies got are from warchanters who dont really have the lack of damage issue. Rangers and rogues get dex to hit/damage now but it seems its overpowered for a bard to get same with charisma? I can't see how a red dragon knight is more charismatic than every bard in existence.

    Levelling or soloing as a first life spell-singer deserves you a medal when cap. I don't see point in all the songs when we barely get a chance to use them as most people are zerg minded and the contents too easy. Sonic blast is nice for first few levels but after that try fighting undead or anything immune to cc with 12 Str and d6 hit dice. Theres loads of sonic spells in Dnd, just a few of those or the (shadow illusion nukes) that are in core Dnd 3.5 would solve so many bard issues and wouldn't be long to code. Artificers count as casters now with nuke SLAs, so why not bards?
    Last edited by idle1; 08-18-2013 at 10:26 AM.

  15. #15
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Sad thing,

    I was figuring out what lives I had left and what builds to go with for my completionist wannabe. I knew I was forgetting one when I was coming up with the list off the top of my head. Bard, and I actually had to think a moment to figure it out, why? Because you never see one in game anymore with how weak they've become. At least pre-motu they had they're uses even if they weren't very popular, now......
    Why are there so few bards?

    Bards are about RAIDING. Many of us build are bards because they WERE awesome to have in a raid. An auxilary healer, +9 damage per swing songs, let's you cheese the bases in Epic VON6, AC song used to matter.

    Now?

    Who raids? CiTW and FOT, that's about it. Despite the ramblings of the "all is fine" fanbois raiding is near dead in DDO. The benfits of the damage songs really pay off in a 12-man group, 6-man not so much.

    They're a buffer class in a game that's gone BYOH.

  16. #16
    Community Member Pilgrim1's Avatar
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    My friend and I have been doing what we like to call "Red alert zerging" and its all based on the power of the bard. I on my gimpi ass messed up mixed up bard fascinate everything we come to and him on his half equipped FvS keeps me alive. When we get to the boss I just create a wall of fascinated mobs and he dots the boss down. It's hilarious and extremely effective. We have been able to manage EE quests with toons that should have no change in EE.

    As long as fascinate remains how it is the biggest limitation bards will have is the people who play them and play with them. In the new enhancements the spell singer tree is really amazing and if you enjoy using songs its great! If you like to use spells, well its good for that as well but the biggest problem for all casters is the DC of EE stuff. Bard casters are fine in everything else.

    I intend to mess around with my pure bard to make it much better then at some point in the not-so-distant future ill LR him into something like a 12bard/6ranger/2 fighter. Or maybe 16/4 or something.

    Bards come out better!
    Warchanter enhancements are lacking still.
    Bards need a 3ed enhancement list to really compete with other classes that get 3.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Sad thing,

    I was figuring out what lives I had left and what builds to go with for my completionist wannabe. I knew I was forgetting one when I was coming up with the list off the top of my head. Bard, and I actually had to think a moment to figure it out, why? Because you never see one in game anymore with how weak they've become. At least pre-motu they had they're uses even if they weren't very popular, now......
    Bards are only weak if you're a bad player/builder. Pure bards have slight disadvantages but there are a number of really good 16/2/2, 14/4/2 etc. splits.

    After MotU, Epic Destinies made bards even better. My THF bard with eAG and Dreadnought can plow through EE mobs; if I don't feel like using Song of Capering, Enthrall, or Irresistible Dance and just skipping past them.

    This pass makes them even more powerful. It's just that simple. It isn't like DDO is any difficult anyway.

  18. #18
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    what will i LR my bard(s) into?

    well let's see...

    Pointless Waste of Time (currently 16/2/2/4 bard/barb/rogue/epic. warchanter) might take out the barb levels and just go 18/2 bard rogue. i'd have access to victory song... full BAB nice on an already melee focused character. other goodies in warchanter line has me drooling already.

    Beguiling Waste of Time (currently 18 bard. spellsinger. heal/CC focused. hagglebard. chest blesser) staying pure bard. heal and wail in my spell list when i hit 20 has me drooling also. i'll also get 2 feats back to use on something else. elements from the virt line mixed into the SS line gives me more CC than i had before. rawr.

    Frivolous Waste of Time (currently 6/4/2 bard/fighter/rogue. warchanter. evasive BardTank in progress) dunno yet. but i have more flexibility from a smaller fighter splash than i had before. still need to look over what there is and decide what i'll do,

    Justanotha Waste of Time (currently 9/2 bard/arti. Virtuoso. ranged support bard) currently has decently strong CC for a first lifer and ranged damage from crossbow and runearm... and trapping. undecided what i'll do with this one also. havn't even looked over the arti trees yet.

    overall, i'm happy. i always LOL a little at these "bards need to be moar powerful!" threads. we already CAN do it all, if you give us too much more, we'd be so OP it'd be silly. ^_^

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  19. #19
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    I do not agree with you OP actually my warchanter bard got the biggest buff of any of my characters. My bard rabiez is a pure level 20 warchanter twf character she has a strength of 40+ and over 2k spell points with supplements. Here is my plan with the enhancement pass. I am staying as a pure level 20 bard. I am spending 41 pts in warchanter and 41 pts in spellsinger so I can get both core level 20 abilities. I will get the following with the enhancement pass:
    -Virtuoso Songs.
    -Heal Spell.
    -More spell points.
    -More personal dps.
    -More positive spell power and more sonic spell power (saving throw dcs will be low)
    -Dps songs are actually better with the inspire recklessness now stacking although when I do not play they are slightly worse off.

    Pure bard is the way to go or perhaps a heavy multi class bard which emphasizes the non bard class if going for dps. Bard is going to be so powerful I can not wait. Literally can not wait.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  20. #20
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    Just curious, how many of those were pure?
    I know at least two of us were mixed builds. Mine is an 18/2 Bard/Rogue and if I recall correctly I believe the other was 16/4 Bard/Fighter. It isn't terribly surprising to run into splashed builds though as with the older enhancement system you really didn't gain a lot of benefit being pure. The capstones alone were usually narrowly focused on one style of play.

    Just take a step back and analyze a lot of the highly successful FotM builds over the years. Two that immediately spring to mind are the Exploiter and the Juggernaught. Neither build is pure.
    Last edited by Ryiah; 08-18-2013 at 12:04 PM.
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