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  1. #241
    Community Member Merfyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    But it's a build "for new players"; that's right in the title. New players should not immediately be expecting to excel solo in the hardest difficulty.

    The problem might not be the build, but the expectations.
    Quite true; it shouldn't be considered an "easy button" even if it happened to have wide success.

    Still, just like repeater builds, it probably needs an update now that the tree has been revamped.

  2. #242
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    not a reply but a question "why isnt a new thread button right there at the top or somewhere on the forum what kind of idjuts make a forum and hide the new thread button

  3. #243
    Community Member C-Dog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rightous View Post
    not a reply but a question "why isnt a new thread button right there at the top or somewhere on the forum what kind of idjuts make a forum and hide the new thread button
    Welcome!

    There is, both above the title "Forum:..." at the top, and again at the very bottom. BUT, You don't get to start a new thread until you've been around a while - 30 days, iirc. Cuts down on spambot posting.

    (Now apologize to the nice Mr. forum-master )

  4. #244
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    Sorry if this qualifies as a necro, but...

    I don't see any discussion on this thread about the pros and cons of the Skeletal Knight enhancement, nor do I see any of the build variations taking it. Anyone have any thoughts as to why?

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasii View Post
    Sorry if this qualifies as a necro, but...
    Even if it does, it's appropriate!

    Quote Originally Posted by jasii View Post
    I don't see any discussion on this thread about the pros and cons of the Skeletal Knight enhancement, nor do I see any of the build variations taking it. Anyone have any thoughts as to why?
    Pro: A lever-puller! Well worth spending 1 AP to get.
    Cons: Pets in DDO tend to be buggy and squishy and useless for actual tough combat. It's usually a waste to spend more than the minimum trying to buff it up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As a general rule we don't intend for a single spawn area to cause any dungeon alert, and certainly not red dungeon alert. This basically isn't ever a goal in our designs

  6. #246
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasii View Post
    I don't see any discussion on this thread about the pros and cons of the Skeletal Knight enhancement, nor do I see any of the build variations taking it. Anyone have any thoughts as to why?
    Pets (and summoning in general) are bad in DDO on any difficulty above Hard - and even there it's marginal. It gets worse if you multiclass, because MCing delays your summoning spell progression and reduces your pet's level vs pure caster.

    If you want to mess with pets/summons, only do it on a pure caster build and take the Augment Summons feat ASAP. Then when you're sick of how underpowered they are, swap Augment Summons for a more useful caster feat and spend your APs elsewhere like the rest of us.
    Major build threads: Axesinger / Dwarven Defender / Drow Ninja / Drow Paladin / Elven Ranger / Monkcher / Sacred Vanguard / Cleric Domains / Kundarak Brigade / Iconic Builds
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  7. #247
    Community Member C-Dog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbongwah View Post
    Pets (and summoning in general) are bad in DDO on any difficulty above Hard - and even there it's marginal...
    Yeah, pets in combat have 1 purpose - to distract the enemy for a shot or three. If they're beating on your pet, they aren't beating on you - but don't expect much more than just that. AP's spent trying to turn those 1-3 shots into more are AP you could spend on noticeably upping your own DPS/durability, which is something the pet really doesn't add (beyond the short-lived "distraction" factor).

    Besides that, there are 3 things that a pet does do...

    1) It "alerts" faster than you do. They can sense and locate enemies long before you would otherwise be aware of them. This is true for stealthy enemies as well as ones simply hidden from LoS by terrain. If your pet is clawing at a closed door, then you know there's something unpleasant on the other side (altho' that's always a good bet!)

    2) 2nd warm body for levers/pressure plates/etc.

    3) If you religiously park it and leave it behind where it's safe, out of combat, then if/when you die you can wait until things calm down, summon it nearby, and it can carry your soul stone to a shrine. This is probably, by far, the best use of a controllable pet.

    For some players, that can be worth a couple AP - but no more than that.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-Dog View Post
    It "alerts" faster than you do. They can sense and locate enemies long before you would otherwise be aware of them. This is true for stealthy enemies as well as ones simply hidden from LoS by terrain. If your pet is clawing at a closed door, then you know there's something unpleasant on the other side (altho' that's always a good bet!)

    The flip side of that being that it also alerts enemies long before they would otherwise be aware of you. :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by C-Dog View Post

    If you religiously park it and leave it behind where it's safe, out of combat, then if/when you die you can wait until things calm down, summon it nearby, and it can carry your soul stone to a shrine. This is probably, by far, the best use of a controllable pet.
    Yes, also a good point, beyond just the lever-pulling.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As a general rule we don't intend for a single spawn area to cause any dungeon alert, and certainly not red dungeon alert. This basically isn't ever a goal in our designs

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-Dog View Post
    Yeah, pets in combat have 1 purpose - to distract the enemy for a shot or three. If they're beating on your pet, they aren't beating on you - but don't expect much more than just that. AP's spent trying to turn those 1-3 shots into more are AP you could spend on noticeably upping your own DPS/durability, which is something the pet really doesn't add (beyond the short-lived "distraction" factor).

    Besides that, there are 3 things that a pet does do...

    1) It "alerts" faster than you do. They can sense and locate enemies long before you would otherwise be aware of them. This is true for stealthy enemies as well as ones simply hidden from LoS by terrain. If your pet is clawing at a closed door, then you know there's something unpleasant on the other side (altho' that's always a good bet!)

    2) 2nd warm body for levers/pressure plates/etc.

    3) If you religiously park it and leave it behind where it's safe, out of combat, then if/when you die you can wait until things calm down, summon it nearby, and it can carry your soul stone to a shrine. This is probably, by far, the best use of a controllable pet.

    For some players, that can be worth a couple AP - but no more than that.

    In my experience, they're not all the same.

    • Summons (from the Monster Summoning spells) are always lower-level than the caster, so they're good mainly for distraction. The one from Epic Destinies are more durable.
    • Hirelings can be chosen to match your level, can carry your soul stone, follow orders, and can hold their own in a fight. Plus, you know, healing and trapping.
    • Pets vary, I think. I've always found the Skeletal Knight (for whom this conversation started) to be tough and useful in a fight. (I always buy the upgrades, and I usually get Augment Summoning because I love being surrounded by summons, hirelings, and pets.)


    Are you sure pets can carry soul stones?
    Got complaints about the in-game hirelings?
    That's nothing compared to what they say about YOU

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  10. #250
    Community Member C-Dog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shawnvw View Post
    In my experience, they're not all the same...
    Yes, they are, in exactly the way you distinguish them. Pets are "pets", which is what we're talking about. The other two have some things in common, but are what they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by shawnvw View Post
    Are you sure pets can carry soul stones?
    100%.

    And, fwiw, if one player who started the game in '11 posted it, and a second player who started in '09 supported it, so should you be, too.

    (Edit - for that matter, you started in '06 - How are you NOT sure??? )

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by shawnvw View Post

    • Pets vary, I think. I've always found the Skeletal Knight (for whom this conversation started) to be tough and useful in a fight. (I always buy the upgrades, and I usually get Augment Summoning because I love being surrounded by summons, hirelings, and pets.)
    Let me re-state: like many things in DDO, it depends on the difficulty. In tough content, pets are basically useless in combat; they will do negligible DPS, and will die easily. In easier content, they might look uber, simply because it's easier content.

    My fully fully spell/gear/DruidPLx3/classEnhancement/HarperEnhancement/AugSummon/EpicAugSummoned/ScionOfElysium/shipBuff/CryOfBattle-buffed pet with like 2.5K HP would still get 3-shot in R10s, or 1-shot because it's too dumb to stay out of Veng circles. But it'd probably kick behind in Hard! Without all that stuff buffing it, it's probably be great on Normal.

    Quote Originally Posted by shawnvw View Post


    Are you sure pets can carry soul stones?
    Quite sure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    As a general rule we don't intend for a single spawn area to cause any dungeon alert, and certainly not red dungeon alert. This basically isn't ever a goal in our designs

  12. #252
    Community Member Alrik_Fassbauer's Avatar
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    "Why is a Pale Trapper better than other trappers ?"
    "Because he can't be killed upon dismantling failure. He is already dead."
    "You are a Tiefling. And a Cleric, with the Domain of the Sun. Doesn't that contradict each other ?" "No, all my friends are playing evil. I found that so boring that I decided to be on the good side. And, besides, Sun and Fire, where is the difference, really ?"

  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-Dog View Post


    (Edit - for that matter, you started in '06 - How are you NOT sure??? )
    Well, the only pet I play is the Skeletal Knight (I don't know for how long, but it couldn't have been since '06, could it? ). I thought I had tried grabbing my stone in the past and it didn't work. Guess I must have remembered it wrong.
    Got complaints about the in-game hirelings?
    That's nothing compared to what they say about YOU

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  14. #254
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    I can't help but think that with the intersection of:
    An EK tree that is worthy
    Plowshares to swords feat
    The revamp of the THF line making it much more EK friendly
    There might be a good Wizard 18/ Rogue 2 build in there that does mostly staff fighting.

  15. #255
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    Hello, new player here - is this still up to date? I'm currently at level 5, but noticed that the "PM0" thingies don't actually give me four different forms, just one and a second further up the tree. Should I directly choose Lich (or vampire) in that case, which seem to be the most useful forms for me (cause +INT), or do I get the forms i didn't choose later automatically?
    Also, how important is that +1DC to Necromantic spells at the very top? It seems very lackluster for a tier 5 enhancement. I'd rather get the Greater Death Shroud thing, the passive and active look way better than a simple +1DC.

  16. #256
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ignorus View Post
    Hello, new player here - is this still up to date?
    The OP was last updated 4 1/2 years ago so: no it's not. That said, the gist of the build remains the same. You pair Necromancy with an Archmage school like Enchantment or Evocation. The base stats and feats remain largely the same. The Enhancements and Epic Destiny are what need updating.

    The Pale Master tree was revamped about a year ago. Originally you had to upgrade undead forms sequentially (zombie -> vampire -> wraith -> lich); now you pick your preferred form at wizard 3 and add Augmentations to improve it. Some Augmentations improve spellcasting (e.g., extra Spellpower, +2 Enchantment or Necromancy DCs), some are melee-focused like Inflict Weariness, while others boost survivability (Incorporealty).

    BTW if you're interested in a melee PM / Eldritch Knight build (and have the Harper tree), see my Bladesingers thread.
    Major build threads: Axesinger / Dwarven Defender / Drow Ninja / Drow Paladin / Elven Ranger / Monkcher / Sacred Vanguard / Cleric Domains / Kundarak Brigade / Iconic Builds
    My Build Index: a Motley Menagerie of Original Rapscallions, Pugilists, and Gimps!

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