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  1. #21
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    Yeah, because there's such a glutton on melee items that contain CHA and Insightful CHA on them. And good luck getting your CHA up to 42 (or technically 46 since the non-stacking Insight issue) by level 20 to get the amount of damage equal to live from Divine Might IV... You'll probably have a hard time getting CHA that high even at next years new cap.

    The new Divine Might pretty much helps two types of paladins, STR based Paladin/Fighter builds and STR based Paladin/Monk builds. It's a net negative for pure paladins or splashes that aren't STR based.
    I'll agree you are getting shafted if you built your pally entirely around doing charisma based damage, and basically dumping strength. I'm guessing 90% of paladins that did this are two weapon fighting based, since it just had so much synergy.

    I agree that two weapon fighting paladins are probably dead, unless they splash pretty heavily and get most of their enhancements from the splash classes.

  2. #22
    Community Member Standal's Avatar
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    I currently don't have any Flawless White Dragonscale anything, but does the Shield effect on it satisfy the requirements for a shield? I haven't seen anybody say that it does, but I also have not seen that it's been tested and not been equal to a shield.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindos View Post
    If you guys could please reproduce and bug report this would be great! thanks
    Already done it twice, once last lamannia build and again with this one. I suspect I'll have to do it a third time on Monday when everything goes live.

  4. #24

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    Regarding Unyielding Sovereignty:

    You can either use the free LR+20 or free LR+0 to respec to take the feat for free at level 6, at the same time adding the heal skill for the extra devotion. This is probably the best bet.

    You can also swap it in at Fred. You don't see it in the list because you never took it, but you should see something along the lines of "Free Feat Respec Placeholder" in your list of changeable feats at Fred. The first one will be the level 1 feat, the "Follower of" prereq feat. Take Follower of the Sovereign Host. Then you should see a second one; that should let you take Unyielding Sovereignty. Both should be free respecs, and neither should put Fred on timer.

    I only heard a reference to this in passing so I can't verify it works. But that's what I heard.

  5. #25
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Regarding Unyielding Sovereignty:

    You can either use the free LR+20 or free LR+0 to respec to take the feat for free at level 6, at the same time adding the heal skill for the extra devotion. This is probably the best bet.

    You can also swap it in at Fred. You don't see it in the list because you never took it, but you should see something along the lines of "Free Feat Respec Placeholder" in your list of changeable feats at Fred. The first one will be the level 1 feat, the "Follower of" prereq feat. Take Follower of the Sovereign Host. Then you should see a second one; that should let you take Unyielding Sovereignty. Both should be free respecs, and neither should put Fred on timer.

    I only heard a reference to this in passing so I can't verify it works. But that's what I heard.
    I'm hoping Fred can put in missing feats. I have 2 characters with dragonmarks who will have holes in their place now. I guess a full lr wouldn't hurt, but i'd rather not do that if i don't have to.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    If you can, being as objective as possible, consider this. Do you really think you should get the same advantages from a defensive stance not using a shield that you do using one? Particularly advantages that are directly related to mitigating physical damage, such as prr? That has never made sense to me that you could. And i would be curious to know what such a stance would actually look like. Would it look like the put your head between your knees and kiss your *** goodbye stance?
    I understand and accept your premise. Given the current DDO universe, though, such a rebalancing should not render an already somewhat underpowered class to become more underpowered. Perhaps some other form of rebalancing could occur that wasn't so extreme, or was accompanied by some form of Paladin Ability that allowed more DPS if you chose the less "defensive" form of play?

    In DDO context, losing either 25% HP or 50% DPS from what was already "modest" DPS and has been present for years does not seem like a good move in the game context. What the tradeoff should be in terms of HP or weapon damage or other Paladin specialties I'll leave to those much more familiar with the DnD Paladin class than I.

    I'm sure there's something out there that can help make Pallies unique, functional, and not so nerfed.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    If you can, being as objective as possible, consider this. Do you really think you should get the same advantages from a defensive stance not using a shield that you do using one? Particularly advantages that are directly related to mitigating physical damage, such as prr? That has never made sense to me that you could. And i would be curious to know what such a stance would actually look like. Would it look like the put your head between your knees and kiss your *** goodbye stance?
    Because realism in a magical fantasy game is important enough to nerf an already weak class?
    *Disclaimer: All statements are generalized without boging down in minutia. Assuming that there are ALWAYS exceptions that test the rule, variations, and un-stated details may be omitted for brevity. These can be assumed to be understood; without bloating my posts with preemptive coverass. [*] Seal[*] Scroll[*] Shard[*] Base Item - eSoS >200 runs

  8. #28
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    If you can, being as objective as possible, consider this. Do you really think you should get the same advantages from a defensive stance not using a shield that you do using one? Particularly advantages that are directly related to mitigating physical damage, such as prr? That has never made sense to me that you could. And i would be curious to know what such a stance would actually look like. Would it look like the put your head between your knees and kiss your *** goodbye stance?
    Objective to what exactly? People can fight "defensively" without a shield, even in real life. A shield increases defense but it isn't the only way to defend yourself. As far as DDO was concerned, a defensive stance was still augmented by a shield since you gained higher prr and dr, but it didn't absolutely require it because the devs never spent much time developing shields in the first place. Shields had their situational uses but overall they were weak when compared to the alternatives. Had they buffed up shield usage this go round then it would have made sense to make changes to the defensive stances. But they didn't make shield better, they just made them mandatory to get what we used to get without shields.

    So, it really isn't "objective" because the game engine does a poor job of simulating reality (lets not forget that shields had very strong offensive ability as well as defensive abilities historically- which shows up very weakly in DDO and lets not forget the idea of real strength, endurance, and agility, which DDO can only represent in the most "abstract" manner). SO what really matters is how "subjective" shield usage is in comparison to the rest of the game. Which means that "defensive" stanced Paladins only needed a nerf if they were too powerful. And I really challenge anyone who thinks they were so powerful that they needed a nerf.

    Basically, Turbine took one of the classes and one of the PrEs in least need of a nerf and nerfed it.

    Do you really think Paladins are better off?
    Last edited by eonfreon; 08-17-2013 at 08:52 PM.

  9. #29
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Regarding Unyielding Sovereignty:

    You can either use the free LR+20 or free LR+0 to respec to take the feat for free at level 6, at the same time adding the heal skill for the extra devotion. This is probably the best bet.

    You can also swap it in at Fred. You don't see it in the list because you never took it, but you should see something along the lines of "Free Feat Respec Placeholder" in your list of changeable feats at Fred. The first one will be the level 1 feat, the "Follower of" prereq feat. Take Follower of the Sovereign Host. Then you should see a second one; that should let you take Unyielding Sovereignty. Both should be free respecs, and neither should put Fred on timer.

    I only heard a reference to this in passing so I can't verify it works. But that's what I heard.
    Oh, we get a free LR+0 too? Well, that's good. Considering they did change the way that skills worked. It does make sense that they should provide 2 LRs this time around. A +0 LR to simply make my character correspond to the new system and a +20 in case I just can't justify playing a character that barely gets back to what he had before does make sense.

    So it's verified? We get 2 LRs? And free Feat updates?

    That would make me a lot happier.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    Oh, we get a free LR+0 too? Well, that's good. Considering they did change the way that skills worked. It does make sense that they should provide 2 LRs this time around. A +0 LR to simply make my character correspond to the new system and a +20 in case I just can't justify playing a character that barely gets back to what he had before does make sense.

    So it's verified? We get 2 LRs? And free Feat updates?

    That would make me a lot happier.
    We've had a free LR for most toons for quite some time now.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    I'll agree you are getting shafted if you built your pally entirely around doing charisma based damage, and basically dumping strength.
    No one dumped STR to do that. to get 20 CHA required 16 Charisma and a +4 Tome, Leaving max/near max STR totally possible (1 for 1 point buy on a Drow) and all level ups into STR. the pay off of +8 damage added to Exulted Smites 1.8 times per click was nice big numbers when wielding appropriate TWF weapons (Two Deathnips, Khopeshes etc.) it still was underpowered but at least it was an option that made the class a little less weak.
    *Disclaimer: All statements are generalized without boging down in minutia. Assuming that there are ALWAYS exceptions that test the rule, variations, and un-stated details may be omitted for brevity. These can be assumed to be understood; without bloating my posts with preemptive coverass. [*] Seal[*] Scroll[*] Shard[*] Base Item - eSoS >200 runs

  12. #32
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    (I just realized if I could somehow change races [for free] I could switch to Dwarf, and a lot of the Dwarven Ware Axe bonuses and race weapon modifiers would mitigate the issue...I think...I'm not an expert on this. I also took the Sovereign Host from Fred with the "Free Feat Token although alone its worthless, I guess I hoped Unyielding would show up under it automatically or something since its the same symbol. I'll check and see if unyielding is there too.]

  13. #33
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    We've had a free LR for most toons for quite some time now.
    Oh, so the free LR that I used to adjust my character to the last "game restructuring"?

    Oh well. Too bad. I was hoping there was something new.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    Oh, so the free LR that I used to adjust my character to the last "game restructuring"?

    Oh well. Too bad. I was hoping there was something new.
    Well every character is getting a +20 LR wood, so we are getting something - just not 2 somethings.

  15. #35
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fundamental View Post
    Very nice, you lost 200 hp and gaining nothing :P
    Looks like people will be very happy on Monday
    You're getting a +20 heart of wood, dump this dead class.

  16. #36
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    Well every character is getting a +20 LR wood, so we are getting something - just not 2 somethings.
    Yes, which is what I said. So instead of being able to easily adapt we have to make sure we have it all down so that we can completely remake our characters, especially if they happen to be Paladins.

    So, we basically are required to use the +20 LR just to try to get back to where we were.

    That's fine. It's about the minimum we should expect with this much of a change, considering they've changed the worth of just about everything' feats and Skills not just Enhancements.

    So as I've said, I'll wait a bit before actually using my +20 LR, even though I'll be pretty hamstrung, I'll try to experiment some with the system.

  17. #37
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    [I just checked fred again on lamma as a previous responder suggested, and although I was able to trade in Followe of Sovereign Host I did not see a second trade-in for Unyielding Sovereignty...I must be missing something.]

  18. #38
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by benicius View Post
    Yeah I'm concerned as well. I won't touch my Paladin for a few days untill after the pass. I plan on playing with the Bladeforged Iconic and some meaningless toons that I don't care about. I'll watch the forums and let the dust settle.

    Check some of the lamma threads ... pallys took a bit of a hit in this enhancement pass. As an example, Divine Might is no longer a sacred bonus to damage, it takes your CHA mod and adds it to STR. It doesn't stack with insight bonuses to STR. In my case DM IV goes from +8 down to +4 to damage.

    I didn't wind up with that much of a loss of HP's. Not sure where your loss is. My HP dropped some from loss of toughness enchancements - about 20 HP.

    Here is some info on Unyielding Sovereignty....

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...Edition/page2?
    As previously seen on Lamannia, Clerics and Paladins now choose a deity to worship at level 1 as a feat, similar to Favored Souls. Old religious enhancements for Clerics, Paladins and Favored Souls such as Unyielding Sovereignty are now freely granted at level 6 as feats.
    If someone does not use a shield they can not get the +6 con and +20% hp from the sacred defender stance. A popular build on live is a two handed fighting paladin in defender stance in large part because of the hit points the build has. That build has to be changed up and adapted. The knight of chalice is better then live, but the question is whether it is good enough.

    I kind of think the final abilities in knight of the chalice are not good enough. Holy Retribution under 1k hp that has a 10+pally level + cha modifier save. Now censure outsiders and slayer of evil for undead are both decent, but it is not as good tempest end abilities for example.

    Pally tanks seem better with the amp they can get. In general having a higher charisma and emphasizing healing amp just got more important then they were previously for offensive pallys.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  19. #39
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    If you can, being as objective as possible, consider this. Do you really think you should get the same advantages from a defensive stance not using a shield that you do using one? Particularly advantages that are directly related to mitigating physical damage, such as prr?
    I want to not be objective but because you asked nicely
    • Defensive Fighting - Been around sense day one (or at least when I started at Update 9. This is the premise the whole argument starts on. You can fight defensively!
    • TWB - DR while blocking with TWF. Combines with....(Wait for it)
    • TWD - You have PRR with two weapons, why not one?
    • Tempest Enhancements - The final nail in the coffin. It is granted to a class that does not have to use a shield.

    That has never made sense to me that you could. And i would be curious to know what such a stance would actually look like. Would it look like the put your head between your knees and kiss your *** goodbye stance?
    Why would it seem curious to you with all the above examples that have been in the game for awhile? Granted PRR is new, but that was due to the restructuring to the AC system.

    • I would say this counts as a defensive style and PRR Not using a shield...Also happens to be a game Turbine manages also...lol..
      LoTR: End of Part 1
    • Any Star Wars Movie/Cartoon. Lots of Sabers deflecting incoming attacks.
    • This link got me started and I am sure other users can build on the list.


    p.s. I forgot to highlight your other comment. If you can find a build that has less DR/PRR/AC using a shield, I will gladly say you are correct.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krelar View Post
    Unless they make some changes before Monday don't bother with the enhancements that require a shield. Every time you swap weapons you lose hit points (Even if you keep a shield equipped the entire time. It's even possible to kill yourself this way.
    Rofl. How embarrassing, someone should make a video for posterity before they fix it

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