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  1. #1
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    Default Post-expansion DC divine theory crafting

    EDIT: UPDATE 21 makes the totals in here obsolete. Rather than trying to continue to hack an already cluttered thread, I'll just leave this thread as U19-time-frame-specific. If/when I get the time and energy, I might start a new thread with updated totals.


    Preface:


    Yeah, yeah, DC casting will still be broken in end-game EE quests. DC casters will still be gimp, blah, blah, blah.

    I don't care. I would rather play a gimp build that I enjoy than an uber FotM that I don't.

    I welcome comments about making a BETTER divine DC caster. I'm not interested in comments about making something you think is better THAN a divine DC caster.

    The expansion changes available gear, and enhancements. I've been trying to tabulate what sort of Wisdom and DCs a divine caster can now reach.

    These are not builds. This does not cover Spell Penetration, nor survivability, nor healing, or whatever. This is just an exercise on what Wisdom & DCs you could reach if that was your main goal.

    This is also just focused on spells. There are various other abilities with DCs that are based off of attributes other than Wisdom; these are beyond the scope of this post.

    My preliminary results are below. Corrections/additions welcome.

    Special note: these breakdowns specifically only include things that are permanent or that I consider "sustainable", and excludes things I don't consider sustainable. I deliberately did not include the following:
    - Spellsinger DC buff
    - Inspire Excellence
    - DDO Store ability potions
    - House D ability potions
    - Audience With the Queen ability buff
    - Abishai cookie set ability buff
    - Human Action Surge
    - Magister DC boost Epic Moment
    - Primal Avatar Spirit Boon
    - possibly other things I'm not thinking of right now



    EDIT: Thanks to Aviya for pointing out that, with a 1-level Monk splash and 3 feats spent, any character can go into the highest Ocean stance for +4 Wisdom (i.e., 2 more than a +2 Wisdom capstone or just the lowest Monk stance). These changes noted below in this color.

    Maximum Wisdom score:

    Things common to Clr, FvS, & Drd:
    18 base
    +7 level-ups
    +11 Enhancement item
    +3 Insightful item
    +2 Alchemical item
    +1 Exceptional item
    +1 Litany of the Dead
    +2 Completionist
    +6 destiny
    +3 Great Wisdom feats (fewer if you actually want DCs)
    +5 tome
    +2 Ship buffs
    +2 Yugoloth potion
    +1 racial enhancement (Human/Half-Elf)
    +2 Twist Acute Instincts (and drink Rage potion)
    +2 Twist Wisdom X2 (less if you want to twist DCs)
    --
    68 basic sustainable Wisdom not including class enhancements or stances

    Pure Cleric only:
    +4 Tree #1 (2 Wisdom plus capstone) (either of Divine Disciple or Radiant Servant)
    +2 Tree #2 (either other Cleric tree)
    +1 Tree #3 (the 3rd Cleric tree or Half-elf Dil)
    --
    +7 from enhancements
    --
    75 total sustainable pure Cleric Wisdom

    Cleric with Monk splash only:
    +2 Tree #1
    +2 Tree #2
    +2 Tree #3 (2 from the 3rd Cleric tree or 1 there and 1 from Half-elf Dil)
    +2 Monk splash, the lowest-tier Ocean stance
    --
    +8 from Cleric class enhancements
    +2 more with 3 feats for highest Ocean stance
    --
    76 total sustainable Cleric/Monk Wisdom
    78 sustainable Cleric/Monk Wisdom with additional 3-feat-expenditure

    Favored Soul only:
    +2 AoV
    +2 Warpriest
    +1 Half-elf Dil enhancement
    --
    +5 FvS class enhancements & Half-elf enhancement
    --
    73 total sustainable FvS Wisdom



    Favored Soul with Monk splash:
    +2 AoV
    +2 Warpriest
    +1 Half-elf Dil enhancement
    +2 Monk splash, the lowest-tier Ocean stance
    --
    +7 from Monk stance, FvS class enhancements & Half-elf enhancement
    +2 more with 3 feats for highest Ocean stance
    --
    75 total sustainable FvS/Mnk Wisdom
    77 sustainable FvS Wisdom with Monk splash & additional 3-feat-expenditure

    Druid only:
    +4 Season's Herald (2 Wisdom plus capstone)
    +2 Nature's Warrior
    +1 Half-elf Dil enhancement
    --
    +7 from Druid class & Half-elf enhancements
    (same with Monk if take lowest Ocean stance but lose capstone)
    +2 more with 3 feats for highest Ocean stance
    --
    75 total sustainable Druid Wisdom
    77 sustainable Druid Wisdom with Monk splash & additional 3-feat-expenditure


    Now on to DCs.

    Note you will have a LOWER Wisdom than the figures above, because using DC-increasing feats & twists is better than directly increasing Wisdom. I.e., -1 Wis from 1 fewer Great Wisdom feat, and -1 or -2 Wis from 1 or 2 fewer +Wis twists. So every school will have at least 2 less Wisdom, with Conj & Evoc having 3 less Wisdom, than the totals above.


    Pure Cleric, 72-73 Wisdom, +31 Wisdom modifier
    Cleric/Mnk, 73 Wisdom, +31 Wisdom modifier, if chosen school is Evoc or Conj
    Cleric/Mnk, 74 Wisdom, +32 Wisdom modifier, if chosen school is not Evoc or Conj
    FvS, 70-71 Wisdom, +30 Wisdom modifier
    FvS/Mnk, 72-73 Wisdom, +31 Wisdom modifier
    Druid, 72-73 Wisdom, +31 Wisdom modifier
    Cleric/Monk w. 3 extra feats: 75 Wisdom, +32 Wisdom modifier, if chosen school is Evoc or Conj
    Cleric/Monk w. 3 extra feats: 76 Wisdom, +33 Wisdom modifier, if chosen school is not Evoc or Conj
    FvS/Monk or Druid/Monk w. 3 extra feats: 74-75 Wisdom, +32 Wisdom modifier

    This breakdown is for only one school at a time. You can't, for example, twist in School Specialist for more than 1 school, and will have a hard time taking Epic Spell Focus for more than one school, or carry a +5 Focus weapon for more than 1 school without giving up Alchemical Wisdom, etc..

    DCs:
    10 base
    +9 Heighten
    +1 Active Wizard PL
    +3 Spell Focus feats x3
    +3 Twist Magister school specialist
    (+0 Spell Focus Mastery item no longer stacking +2)
    +2 School Yellow Augment
    +5 School Focus item
    --
    33 DC before adding Wis modifier or special school-specific bonuses


    64 DC in chosen school, with Wisdom, for pure Cleric
    64 DC in chosen schoo, with Wisdom, for Cleric/Monk, if chosen school is Evoc or Conj
    65 DC in chosen schoo, with Wisdom, for Cleric/Monk, if chosen school is not Evoc or Conj
    63 DC in chosen school, with Wisdom, for FvS
    64 DC in chosen school, with Wisdom, for FvS/Monk
    64 DC in chosen school, with Wisdom, for Druid

    65 DC in chosen school, with Wisdom, for Cleric, with Monk splash & additional 3-feat-expenditure, if chosen school is Evoc or Conj
    66 DC in chosen school, with Wisdom, for Cleric, with Monk splash & additional 3-feat-expenditure, if chosen school is not Evoc or Conj
    65 DC in chosen school, with Wisdom, for FvS or Druid, with Monk splash & additional 3-feat-expenditure

    Further school-specific boosts:

    Conjuration only:
    +3 Cleric PL x3
    +2 twist Precise Conjuration

    Enchantment only:
    +1 Active Bard PL
    +1 ship buff

    Evocation only:
    +3 Sorc PL x3
    +2 twist Precise Evocation

    Cleric/Necromancy only:
    +2 Dark Divine Disciple enhancements

    Cleric/Evocation only:
    +2 Light Divine Disciple enhancements

    FvS/Evocation only:
    +1 AoV enhancement

    Druid/Evocation only:
    +1 Strength of the Solstice

    Pure Druid/Conjuration only:
    +2 Season's Herald capstone

    Druid/Transmutation only:
    +1 Strength of the Solstice

    Pure Druid/Transmutation only:
    +2 Season's Herald capstone

    This breakdown is for only one school at a time.
    Total sustainable DCs reachable:


    69 maximum pure Cleric Conjuration DC
    66 maximum pure Cleric Enchantment DC
    71 maximum pure Cleric Evocation DC
    66 maximum pure Cleric Necromancy DC
    64 maximum pure Cleric all other schools DC

    69 maximum Cleric/Monk Conjuration DC
    67 maximum Cleric/Monk Enchantment DC
    71 maximum Cleric/Monk Evocation DC
    67 maximum Cleric/Monk Necromancy DC
    65 maximum Cleric/Monk all other schools DC

    68 maximum FvS Conjuration DC
    65 maximum FvS Enchantment DC
    69 maximum FvS Evocation DC
    63 maximum FvS all other schools DC

    69 maximum FvS/Monk Conjuration DC
    66 maximum FvS/Monk Enchantment DC
    70 maximum FvS/Monk Evocation DC
    64 maximum FvS/Monk all other schools DC

    71 maximum pure Druid Conjuration DC
    69 maximum Druid/Monk Conjuration DC
    66 maximum Druid Enchantment DC
    70 maximum Druid Evocation DC
    67 maximum pure Druid Transmutation DC
    65 maximum Druid/Monk Transmutation DC
    64 maximum Druid all other schools DC


    Total sustainable DCs reachable with Monk splash & additional 3-feat-expenditure:
    (Note these are +1 better for a Cleric, +2 better than a pure FvS, +1 better than a FvS/Monk without the stance feats, +1 better for most schools for Druid, and -1 WORSE for a Druid for Conjuration and Transmutation.)

    70 maximum Cleric Conjuration DC
    68 maximum Cleric Enchantment DC
    72 maximum Cleric Evocation DC
    68 maximum Cleric Necromancy DC
    66 maximum Cleric all others schools DC

    70 maximum FvS Conjuration DC
    67 maximum FvS Enchantment DC
    71 maximum FvS Evocation DC
    65 maximum FvS all other schools DC

    70 maximum Druid Conjuration DC
    67 maximum Druid Enchantment DC
    71 maximum Druid Evocation DC
    66 maximum Druid Transmutation DC
    65 maximum Druid all other schools DC
    Last edited by SirValentine; 03-10-2014 at 07:18 AM. Reason: Noted Update 21 obsoletes this info.

  2. #2
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    I'm gonna put into my fvs 1 lvl of monk and select 3 feats to get ultimate ocean stance that gives +4 wisdom.
    That should give me a higher wisdom than a cleric I think
    Last edited by Aviya; 08-17-2013 at 11:12 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    +2 Spell Focus Mastery item
    +5 School Focus item
    Spell Focus Mastery does not stack with other Spell Focus item enchantments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aviya View Post
    I'm gonna put into my fvs 1 lvl of monk and select 3 feats to get ultimate ocean stance that gives +4 wisdom.
    Thanks for pointing out that, even without the higher forms, splashing for +2 Wisdom from the lowest Monk stance is still a path to higher Wisdom for a FvS, until they fix the broken capstone. For Cleric, a +2 stance at the expense of capstone isn't a gain.

    As for the higher tiers, yes, you could spend 3 feats to get +2 more Wisdom. Ouch, that's steep, though. But I'll include it for the sake of completeness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviya View Post
    That should give me a higher wisdom than a cleric I think
    Since a Cleric could use that same strategy just as much as a FvS, how would it give a FvS higher Wisdom than a Cleric?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JJMC895610 View Post
    Spell Focus Mastery does not stack with other Spell Focus item enchantments.
    If you are talking about pre-expansion, you are absolutely correct.

    If you are talking about post-expansion...well, maybe you should verify things before claiming other people got it wrong. Lama is open right now, you know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    If you are talking about pre-expansion, you are absolutely correct.

    If you are talking about post-expansion...well, maybe you should verify things before claiming other people got it wrong. Lama is open right now, you know.
    They are not supposed to stack. They are both equipment bonus.

    I just bug reported it.
    Last edited by Wizza; 08-17-2013 at 12:05 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rys View Post
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    Primal avatar gives a +2wisdom bonus if you maintain spirit. Both cleric aura and FvS aura can keep this basically up 24/7 (cleric easier then fvs because you don't need mobs)

    Furry of the wild has +2 wisdom when you rage, with rage pots/primal scream you are also able to maintain this.

    You might also consider adding in druid to your list if you have time. In addition maybe make a DC for transmutation because as far as i know the destiny ability mass frog is a transmutation spell. And mass frog is basically an old school stile wail.
    Last edited by Pilgrim1; 08-17-2013 at 12:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    They are not supposed to stack. They are both equipment bonus.
    They are both equipment bonuses...to 2 different things. There's no reason to think they are "not supposed to" stack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    I just bug reported it.
    Gee, how...nice...of you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pilgrim1 View Post
    Primal avatar gives a +2wisdom bonus if you maintain spirit. Both cleric aura and FvS aura can keep this basically up 24/7 (cleric easier then fvs because you don't need mobs)
    Thanks for the tip; I'll look into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pilgrim1 View Post
    Furry of the wild has +2 wisdom when you rage, with rage pots/primal scream you are also able to maintain this.
    That was already included from the beginning. :-)

    +2 Twist Acute Instincts (and drink Rage potion)
    Quote Originally Posted by Pilgrim1 View Post
    You might also consider adding in druid to your list if you have time.
    Another good suggestion, thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pilgrim1 View Post
    In addition maybe make a DC for transmutation because as far as i know the destiny ability mass frog is a transmutation spell. And mass frog is basically an old school stile wail.
    Transmutation is already covered by the basic "DC in chosen school" I have listed. To my knowledge, there is no special feat/enhancement/past-life/etc. that affects Transmutation differently than any other school.

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    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    They are both equipment bonuses...to 2 different things. There's no reason to think they are "not supposed to" stack.
    What? Spell focus mastery and Spell focus are 2 different things? Uhm..sure, okay .

    Just FYI, asked to Kookie on Lama just now. He said probably they are not supposed to stack too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rys View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    What? Spell focus mastery and Spell focus are 2 different things? Uhm..sure, okay .
    Yes. Read the descriptions in-game. They are each an equipment bonus...to something specific. And those specific things are different.

    They didn't just break stacking. 2 Evo Focus items don't stack. 2 Mastery items don't stack. But Evo stacks with Mastery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    Just FYI, asked to Kookie on Lama just now. He said probably they are not supposed to stack too.
    To my knowledge, he's a tester, right? I wouldn't be at all suprised if one of the developers changed it and one of the testers didn't know about it.

    When the best Spell Focus item was +3, Mastery was maybe worthwhile. When it's +5, it's not. I suspect it was a deliberate change so that Mastery items are actually still useful.

    It's not that different from the tactics Mastery items stacking with individual Stunning/Vertigo/whatever items.

    If the change was accidental, changing it just means they're nerfing more raid loot from the highest-level and most recently-released raid in the game. If it wasn't already WAI, they should declare it so and move on.

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    Awesome find! I had no idea it stacked and didn't think to test. In fact, I even cashed in my challenge cloak for ingredients on Lamma - which I won't do on live :P

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    If it wasn't already WAI, they should declare it so and move on.
    Agreed. I personally suspect it is WAI since it's a change, and one that I know on live I initially thought would be the case when I got my first spell mastery item.

    Cool breakdowns, I'm afraid I can't think of anything to add. Maybe the -2 constant debuff from the AoV aura, though I concede that's easily arguable as crossing the line into debuffs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pilgrim1 View Post
    Primal avatar gives a +2wisdom bonus if you maintain spirit.
    While fine for Theory Crafting, if you suffer from any UMD Lag, avoid this like the plague. Your Charisma goes up and down like a yo-yo...

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    The description on spell mastery explicitly states that the DCs are not supposed to stack. Is this changed on lam?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    The description on spell mastery explicitly states that the DCs are not supposed to stack. Is this changed on lam?
    Yes.

    The Adamantine Cloak of the Dragon now reads:
    "Spell Focus II: Passive: +2 Equipment Bonus to the DC to resist all of your spells."

    I didn't accidentally omit the word 'mastery' either, it's gone.

    So, I suppose that's some evidence toward accidental, since you think they'd keep the word 'mastery' if it were intended to be different.

    But they also did explicitly remove the 'This bonus does not stack with other item based spell-focus effects' from live - though maybe it was an automatic conversion in some way and the text wasn't explicitly changed.

    I'm leaning towards WAI... but I also want that to be true (especially in the context of this new world of caster DCs not being excellent relative to literally everybody else)!
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Transmutation is already covered by the basic "DC in chosen school" I have listed. To my knowledge, there is no special feat/enhancement/past-life/etc. that affects Transmutation differently than any other school.
    Druids get +1 transmutation and conjuration dc's in the season herald capstone, this only works for pure builds however.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pilgrim1 View Post
    You might also consider adding in druid to your list if you have time.
    Done!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pilgrim1 View Post
    Primal avatar gives a +2wisdom bonus if you maintain spirit. Both cleric aura and FvS aura can keep this basically up 24/7 (cleric easier then fvs because you don't need mobs)
    An interesting ability, to be sure, and one I played with a bit when I was levelling Primal. However, even if it, under most circumstances, it's fairly easy to keep up, I'm not ready to count it as truly sustainable. Maybe I should go play with it a bunch to see how easy it really is to keep up ALL the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Druids get +1 transmutation and conjuration dc's in the season herald capstone, this only works for pure builds however.
    Ah, nice, I didn't know about that.

    However, I looked on the PDF of the new enhancements, and it's listed as +2 to those DCs, not +1. Can you verify on Lama one way or the other?

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    Community Member Pilgrim1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    However, I looked on the PDF of the new enhancements, and it's listed as +2 to those DCs, not +1. Can you verify on Lama one way or the other?
    I think it was +1 at one point in time but they changed it to +2.

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    Ok, played around a bit with my character on Lama, to see how my actuality measures up to all the theory.

    EDIT: Further changes...

    I have a Human Evocation-specialized FvS 20.

    • I'm Human, not Half-Elf, so -1 Wisdom.
    • The FvS +Wis capstone is broken (and going away soon), and I'm not currently willing to swap to a Monk splash, so with neither of those, -2 to Wisdom.

    So:

    • Total -3 to Wisdom off the green numbers in the OP. So -2 to DC.
    • Only have 1 Sorc PL, not 3+, so another -2 to DC.


    So, total, -4 DC off the green max from the OP.

    So instead of sitting on a theoretical 70, I'll just be able to reach an Evo DC of 66. And I've confirmed on Lama that that's reachable for me.

    I'm still in the process of getting to level to 28 and farming up some gear to get to that point.

    UPDATE: Levelled up, geared up, sitting at that 66 Evo DC. And that's the best I can do with out changing my class split or race, or getting more past lives.

    I never even considered the Monk-splash-with-3-stance-feats route. I just can't spare that many feats.

    I did consider picking up the Monk splash (without stance feats), but the gearing issues aren't something I want to deal with at the moment. (All 4 of my 2 current and 2 goal weapons are NOT Monk weapons, and I currently wear Medium armor, all of which would be tricky to replace.)

    I also considered swapping to a Necro spec instead of Evo. I'd be able to hit a 62 Necro...versus a 66 Evo. Though I like Necro, I can't justify to myself dropping 4 points of DC while losing instakills for both undead and constructs (I don't carry Undeath to Death as a FvS), and also making my damage spells more vulnerable to save-for-half. I might go Necro when I get back to Cleric someday, as Divine Disciple helps there and the spell flexibility is better.

    (Slightly off-topic from the DC issue, I also re-did skills. I was ALREADY at base Int of 14 on a Human. Trying to go up to 16 base is too painful on ability points; I'd really have to skimp on Cha, which can be unpleasant for a FvS if/when one gets disjuncted. So to make due, while picking up Spellcraft and Heal, I have to lose all ranks of Diplo, Jump, and a bit of Concentration. I won't give up any of my Balance, UMD, or Haggle, sorry.

    (The Diplo won't hurt my usual play. I only had it in case I ever played with Shiradi much, which I haven't yet. Jump I'll just have do without; there's clickies. And I think I figured I only lose 2 points of Concentration. So I might not even notice.)

    Newer update: Now that they've given us an update on Epic TR plans, I'm getting ready to knock out my last few Heroic TRs soon. Sorcx2 for those missing +2 Evo DC, Wizx2 and another FvS to top up my Spell Pen, then finally back to Cleric to finish.
    Last edited by SirValentine; 09-15-2013 at 09:10 AM. Reason: updated

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