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  1. #21
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post

    Ah, nice, I didn't know about that.

    However, I looked on the PDF of the new enhancements, and it's listed as +2 to those DCs, not +1. Can you verify on Lama one way or the other?
    Just double checked it, it is 2 now my memory was wrong.

  2. #22
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    The only +5 Evocation item I've seen in game is the Nether Orb, but that isn't compatible with remaining centered. Is there a different +5 Evocation item verified that allows you to remain centered?

    If Spell Mastery and specific school item focuses now stack, that's a good direction getting DC casting back on track. It seems reasonable to me to be working as intended (especially with the wording change above) when you consider that Combat Mastery and Stunning +10 have stacked for years for melee. Also when you consider where +2 Spell Mastery is itemized (Fall of Truth), it makes sense that it stacks with school items.
    Last edited by Carpone; 08-18-2013 at 04:01 PM.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Favored Soul only (need to splash Monk until capstone fixed for highest Wisdom):
    Is +2 WIS capstone aspirational or confirmed by a dev for future release?
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    Is +2 WIS capstone aspirational or confirmed by a dev for future release?
    It's on Lama right now. The +2 Wisdom is listed, it just doesn't work. Don't know whether they're going to fix it or just remove it with their melee-makeover thing in 19.1.
    Last edited by SirValentine; 08-18-2013 at 05:36 PM.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    The only +5 Evocation item I've seen in game is the Nether Orb, but that isn't compatible with remaining centered. Is there a different +5 Evocation item verified that allows you to remain centered?
    I don't specifically recall seeing one, but I was under the impression that they would also fall on lootgen weapons (just not with all the other nice goodies that Nether Orb gets). The highest pre-expansion Spell Focus, +3, certainly can already fall on lootgen kamas or whatnot.

  6. #26
    The Hatchery Wipey's Avatar
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    There's that Sage's Locket neck with 5 evo and 15 spellcraft.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Encair View Post
    There's that Sage's Locket neck with 5 evo and 15 spellcraft.
    Thank you. That's a reasonable slot, compared to trying to find a super rare +5 Evocation kama to remain centered. Keeping Twilight also means ready access to 120 Force, 120 Fire and 138 Light Spell Power. 120 Devotion can be obtained through Gauntlets of Immortality, or perhaps a lootgen ring.
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  8. #28
    Community Member HuneyMunster's Avatar
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    You can add another +2 Wis from Primal Avatar ability "Spirit Boon: +2 Primal bonus". It can be classed as sustainable as well as it stays toggled indefinitely unless turned off.

    Also gives +2 int and cha which is also nice for especially for Cleric for extra turn and Fvs spell points.
    Last edited by HuneyMunster; 08-20-2013 at 09:11 AM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuneyMunster View Post
    You can add another +2 Wis from Primal Avatar ability "Spirit Boon: +2 Primal bonus". It can be classed as sustainable as well as it stays toggled indefinitely unless turned off.

    Also gives +2 int and cha which is also nice for especially for Cleric for extra turn and Fvs spell points.
    Even with a constant source of spell triggers like Cleric Radiant Aura or FvS Archon, I wouldn't consider this sustainable. You're lucky to have the bonus 50% of the time, unless you're running with an extremely slow group that allows you to recharge it between mob packs.
    Last edited by Carpone; 08-20-2013 at 12:23 PM. Reason: typo
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  10. #30
    Community Member HuneyMunster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    Even with a constant source of spell triggers like Cleric Radiant Aura or FvS Archon, I wouldn't consider this sustainable. You're lucky to have the bonus 50% of the time, unless you're running with an extremely slow group that allows you to recharge it between mob packs.
    You get 2 spirit from casting any spell and they each last 6 seconds giving you +2 Wis for the duration. Just running around with aura on means you are constantly on 18 spirit stacks. Even if your running around in a extremely slow group that allows your charges to expire it would still not be a problem, just cast something as even a wand gives 2 charges.

    Forgot to mention that its a lot more sustainable than +2 from ship buff as one death and its gone for good. Also Yugoloth potion last for 15 minutes and if you run out of pots its no longer sustainable. You never run out of spell points due to echoes of power.
    Last edited by HuneyMunster; 08-20-2013 at 09:10 PM.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuneyMunster View Post
    You get 2 spirit from casting any spell and they each last 6 seconds giving you +2 Wis for the duration. Just running around with aura on means you are constantly on 18 spirit stacks. Even if your running around in a extremely slow group that allows your charges to expire it would still not be a problem, just cast something as even a wand gives 2 charges.

    Forgot to mention that its a lot more sustainable than +2 from ship buff as one death and its gone for good. Also Yugoloth potion last for 15 minutes and if you run out of pots its no longer sustainable. You never run out of spell points due to echoes of power.
    You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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  12. #32
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    I've gone over the math for a max Evocation DC Favored Soul and the best I can come up with is 70, not 71 as listed in the OP. Here's the breakdown:

    Human 18 FvS/1 Monk/1 Wizard

    1 Wizard 1 (Wiz: Quicken, Human: Empower, Level: Maximize)
    2 FvS 1
    3 FvS 2 (Level: Wizard PL)
    4 FvS 3
    5 FvS 4
    6 FvS 5 (Level: Evocation Focus)
    7 FvS 6
    8 FvS 7
    9 FvS 8 (Level: Greater Evocation Focus)
    10 FvS 9
    11 FvS 10
    12 FvS 11 (Level: Heighten)
    13 FvS 12
    14 FvS 13
    15 Monk 1: (Martial: Toughness, Level: Adept of Forms)
    16 FvS 14
    17 FvS 15
    18 FvS 16 (Level: Master of Forms)
    19 FvS 17
    20 FvS 18

    Epic feats:
    21 Epic Evocation Focus
    24 Grandmaster of Forms
    26 ED: Epic Spell Power: Light or Force
    27 Great Wisdom
    28 ED: Hellball (CHA)

    Epic Destiny: Any with Wisdom option
    1: Wisdom (2)
    2: Wisdom (2)
    3: Wisdom (2)
    4: Wisdom (2)
    5: Wisdom (2)
    6: Wisdom (2)

    Twists:
    Acute Instincts
    Magister Evocation DC +3
    Draconic Evocation DC +2

    WIS (16 points):
    18 Base
    05 Tome
    07 Level ups
    11 Enhancement item
    03 Insightful item
    01 Exceptional item
    02 AoV enhancement
    02 Protection enhancement
    06 Epic Destiny
    01 Human
    04 Grandmaster Ocean Stance
    02 Ship
    02 Yugoloth potion
    02 Acute Instincts
    01 Great Wisdom
    01 Profane (Litany of the Dead)
    02 Alchemical Kama
    ---
    70 WIS sustainable

    Evocation DC:
    10 Base
    09 Heighten
    03 Epic Evocation Focus feat
    01 PL: Wizard feat
    02 Spell Focus Mastery item
    05 Evocation item
    03 Sorcerer past life
    02 Draconic twist
    03 Magister twist
    01 AoV enhancement
    30 WIS bonus
    -----
    69 Evocation DC

    The only thing I'm missing is Completionist, which would bump the above calculations to 70 Evocation DC.
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    I've gone over the math for a max Evocation DC Favored Soul and the best I can come up with is 70, not 71 as listed in the OP. Here's the breakdown:

    Human 18 FvS/1 Monk/1 Wizard
    Go Half-Elf instead of Human, and you can pick up an additional +1 Wis from racial enhancement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    Epic feats:
    21 Epic Evocation Focus
    24 Grandmaster of Forms
    26 ED: Epic Spell Power: Light or Force
    27 Great Wisdom
    28 ED: Hellball (CHA)
    Trying to fit all the feats in, with taking all those Forms feats, is pretty crazy, but I think possible. You'll need to dump "useless" (from a DC perspective; remember, this is theory-crafting) like Quicken, Empower, Maximize, so you take take Spell Focus & Greater Spell Focus earlier. Take your Monk level by 12. Then take your Form feats all by 18, and you can fit in another Great Wisdom as an Epic feat.

    Those 2 Wisdom, Half-Elf Dilettante for 1, and a 2nd Great Wisdom for 1, make up the missing DC.

  14. #34
    Community Member HuneyMunster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
    My point is that both ship buffs and yogo pots are listed but spit boon is not. Whether we agree or disagree on these points does not matter, but it should be added to list of divine DC increasing options.

  15. #35
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    Can you use orbs and still be centered?

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrag View Post
    Can you use orbs and still be centered?
    No.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuneyMunster View Post
    My point is that both ship buffs and yogo pots are listed but spit boon is not.
    Yugo pots can be bought in unlimited quantities from vendors, and consumed as needed. That's about as sustainable as it's possible to get on something that's not a permanent effect.

    Ship buffs last an hour. Most quests don't take that long.

    I consider both of those to be sustainable. If you don't, that's fine.

    Something that requires charges that get rapidly used up doesn't seem anywhere close to those two. I'm not sure why you're making that comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by HuneyMunster View Post
    Whether we agree or disagree on these points does not matter, but it should be added to list of divine DC increasing options.
    Well, since I was compiling it, it matters TO ME, because I was only interested in including sustainable options for a sustainable DC.

    Oh, wait. Looking back at my original post, I see I already made a point of clearly stating that I was only interested in sustainable DCs:

    Special note: these breakdowns specifically only include things that are permanent or that I consider "sustainable", and excludes things I don't consider sustainable.
    If you would like to compile a stars-aligned-look-at-my-screenshot DC breakdown, don't let me stop you. Besides Spirit Boon, here's a few ideas you could include, that I specifically EXCLUDED from mine:

    - DDO Store ability potions
    - Abishai cookie set bonus
    - House Deneith Alchemical ability potions
    - Inspire Excellence
    - Spellsong Trance
    - Audience with the Queen
    - Action Surge

    There may well be others.

    I look forward to seeing your work.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Go Half-Elf instead of Human, and you can pick up an additional +1 Wis from racial enhancement.

    Trying to fit all the feats in, with taking all those Forms feats, is pretty crazy, but I think possible. You'll need to dump "useless" (from a DC perspective; remember, this is theory-crafting) like Quicken, Empower, Maximize, so you take take Spell Focus & Greater Spell Focus earlier. Take your Monk level by 12. Then take your Form feats all by 18, and you can fit in another Great Wisdom as an Epic feat.

    Those 2 Wisdom, Half-Elf Dilettante for 1, and a 2nd Great Wisdom for 1, make up the missing DC.
    Thanks for the explanation, and for compiling all of the information for divine DC casting in one place. This thread is long overdue.

    Personally I think dumping Empower and Quicken in order to gain +1 DC crosses the line from practical to academic. There's little point in having max Evocation DC just for Implosion while it has a 60 second cooldown. The damage gained from fewer saves due to +1 Evocation DC to Blade Barrier, Flame Strike, Firestorm, Hellball and Avenging Light is not greater than the damage lost from the lack of Empower, nor the reliability of Quicken.
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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    Personally I think dumping Empower and Quicken in order to gain +1 DC crosses the line from practical to academic.
    Yup!

    PL: Arcane Initiate, and Completionist, if available, are no-brainers for +1 to all DCs at 1 feat each.

    Spell Focus, Greater SF, Epic SF are decent value at +1 DC to one school for 1 feat each. I'd expect most DC-focused casters to be trying to fit all those.

    Taking Half-Elf instead of Human at the cost of a feat, and taking Great Wisdom feats, are into a bit iffier territory, at +1 Wisdom, or half a point of DC, each. I could see people doing all that, but I could also see them skipping it.

    The stance feats, at effectively only a third of a DC each, are just too costly. I never seriously considered doing it, personally.

    And, without those stance feats, for Druid & Cleric, even splashing Monk is (now) a toss-up, due to losing +2 Wisdom from your capstone. That part I really like. I didn't like Monk-splash being the only reasonable way to get the best DCs.

  20. #40
    Community Member Nodoze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Yugo pots can be bought in unlimited quantities from vendors, and consumed as needed. That's about as sustainable as it's possible to get on something that's not a permanent effect.

    Ship buffs last an hour. Most quests don't take that long.

    I consider both of those to be sustainable. If you don't, that's fine.

    Something that requires charges that get rapidly used up doesn't seem anywhere close to those two. I'm not sure why you're making that comparison.

    Well, since I was compiling it, it matters TO ME, because I was only interested in including sustainable options for a sustainable DC.

    Oh, wait. Looking back at my original post, I see I already made a point of clearly stating that I was only interested in sustainable DCs:

    If you would like to compile a stars-aligned-look-at-my-screenshot DC breakdown, don't let me stop you. Besides Spirit Boon, here's a few ideas you could include, that I specifically EXCLUDED from mine:

    - DDO Store ability potions
    - Abishai cookie set bonus
    - House Deneith Alchemical ability potions
    - Inspire Excellence
    - Spellsong Trance
    - Audience with the Queen
    - Action Surge

    There may well be others.

    I look forward to seeing your work.
    On live for my level 20 Cleric (with +4 epic levels) running in the Primal Avatar Destiny the Positive Energy Aura lasts for at least 1:33 seconds. I regenerate Aura charges every 1:37 seconds or 1:11 seconds depending on whether I have Unyielding Sentinel's Endless Turning twisted or not. With my party or solo with my Owlbear/Panther/Hireling on my Cleric I easily generated Spirit with the Aura up to the maximum 30 charges.

    With Spirit decaying at a rate of 1/15 seconds you would have 7.5 minutes before all 30 Spriit charges ran out even with no aura's running or Allies nearby...

    Only casting my Aura when at max charges resulting in my never dropping below 29 spirit with or without Unyielding Sentinel's Endless Turning twisted or not. I adventured for over an hour and let my Owlbear go where appropriate to fight and never dropped under 10 spirit even when going AFK to get a drink & use the restroom... When I do dungeons with my party I run my aura pretty much all the time and the whole point of the Aura is to heal the team thus I almost always have team-mates around me (certainly don't go 7.5 mins straight with Aura off and without teammates nearby).

    From a Max Wisdom standpoint for Clerics with the Aura there is indeed a +2 max sustainable Wisdom from Spirit Boon (even on quests that take more than 1 hour)...


    That being said, from a pure DC standpoint, it is a wash because if you take the Tier 5 Aura you can't take the Tier 5 +1DC from Divine Disciple...
    Last edited by Nodoze; 08-25-2013 at 11:26 AM.

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