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  1. #41
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sk3l3t0r View Post
    This greedy, moraly questionable behaviour exists all around us in grocery stores and anywhere we must make buying decisions.

    Ever walk into a grocery store, notice a huge sign of $3.99 over what is normally a very expensive item..specific example I recently edxperienced with my elderly mother was brand name frozen fish fillets that normally sell fo $11.99. Above the freezer display case was a massive sign $3.99 with some small print stating Lemon juice, above the freezer display case was a row of Real lemon juice (makes sense, goes with your fish right ?) ...so mom not knowing any better because she assumed the fish was on sale #3.99 grabs 3 packs of something should would not normally buy, goes to the cash to check out and realises that her fish was $11.99 not $3.99, so she immediately asks for the groceory manager. He shows up and listens to the story and admits she is the 8 or 9th customer to complain that day about the poorly placed and marketed sale signs...turns out..she wasn't the only one fooled and who knows how many people actually purchassed the item and didn't realise they got "misdirected".

    The signage was intentionaly placed there by marketing as the store manager admitted that they are asked to place their signage in specific locations.

    It's sad to see what this world is coming to...where profits and greed take precedence over honesty and ethcics / moralities.
    First, placement of that signage usually isn’t the decision of the store manager, it is negotiated between the people who place their products on the shelves (the manufacturers of the frozen fish fillets, for example) and the store chain. This is because, in many cases, the product there is NOT owned by the supermarket, but actually on consignment from the manufacturer. And different manufacturers vie for the prime locations on store shelves to place their product and advertisements.

    So, it is not a simple decision of where the store manager thinks they should be.

    Secondly, it was a law at one time in my state where if you advertised a product for one price, and charged a different amount that was greater than the advertised price, the store had to refund double the difference. Then again, no one EVER complains about when something is advertised to sell at $6.00, and they get it for $1.50. And I rarely every see people willing to reach into their pocket and pay the full $6.00 because that’s what the product was advertised to sell at.

    If you are going to complain about someone luring you into paying more, you should then put your money where your mouth is, and pay the full amount advertised even when you are being charged less.

  2. #42
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    First, placement of that signage usually isn’t the decision of the store manager, it is negotiated between the people who place their products on the shelves (the manufacturers of the frozen fish fillets, for example) and the store chain. This is because, in many cases, the product there is NOT owned by the supermarket, but actually on consignment from the manufacturer. And different manufacturers vie for the prime locations on store shelves to place their product and advertisements.

    So, it is not a simple decision of where the store manager thinks they should be.

    Secondly, it was a law at one time in my state where if you advertised a product for one price, and charged a different amount that was greater than the advertised price, the store had to refund double the difference. Then again, no one EVER complains about when something is advertised to sell at $6.00, and they get it for $1.50. And I rarely every see people willing to reach into their pocket and pay the full $6.00 because that’s what the product was advertised to sell at.
    I agree here, however...

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    If you are going to complain about someone luring you into paying more, you should then put your money where your mouth is, and pay the full amount advertised even when you are being charged less.
    When has that happened in DDO?

    Also - Its pretty standard practice on larger ticket items, even a few hundred bucks or higher, that some amount of haggling or discounting takes place. Anything from brick and mortar music stores, to new and used car, to home and real estate sales, its not realistic to expect someone to pay the full advertised price, and in fact, much of that stuff is marked up knowing the customer is going to try to get them to come down on the price.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuartermasterX View Post
    The absence of a confirmation box is not working as intended. When I have more information on when we are adding a confirmation box for the chest re-roll, I will let you all know.
    What!?! A bug? In DDO?

    If this were a player favored bug you can bet the hotfix would be tomorrow. But this has been purportedly WAI from incepetion to now and suddenly it is not WAI?

    Honestly, Q, working the Store to the lowest common denominator for marketing and selling products has been the biggest DDO turn-off to me for 3+ years now. There are, and have been, many better paths to follow. Whether or not someone has or is 'duped', 'cajoled', 'deceived', 'mistaken', or 'unintentionally clicked' into buying and spending more money for products through poor interface, inadequate descriptions or product changes after purchase is nothing but a path to self destruction. Reputation does mean something and DDO has always managed to seem to not care about its reputation.

    It would be nice to see DDO take a much more progressive, pro-consumer stance to marketing its game and micro-transactions. Raise the bar and make your offerings more transparent and make them less intrusive in the game experience. Oftentimes, less is more.

    If the philosophy is to seemingly remain instead one in which DDO tries to soak the youngsters a dollar at a time and churn them until the doors close, well, I wish DDO not so much good luck with that. IMO, the game will continue to bleed vets, retain some who play for free and know better than to fall for the traps which have been laid. This leaves DDO to to prey upon the younger, less mature portion of its player base, many of whom aren't old enough to vote yet, or even when they are, are often still young and idealistic to the wily ways of the world. I would think this is not the rep a game of this brand, with a company like WB, would want to encourage, but it certainly seems that way.

    Q, it's never too late to do the right thing. Take better care of your customers, and they will take better care of you and DDO.
    Last edited by Hafeal; 08-20-2013 at 03:04 PM. Reason: spelling
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuartermasterX View Post
    The absence of a confirmation box is not working as intended. When I have more information on when we are adding a confirmation box for the chest re-roll, I will let you all know.
    Still had a gm directly make the claim that this was not a technical issue, and that it would not be refunded.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuartermasterX View Post
    The absence of a confirmation box is not working as intended. When I have more information on when we are adding a confirmation box for the chest re-roll, I will let you all know.
    Thank you...

    That's all I needed to hear

  6. #46
    Community Member Gizeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuartermasterX View Post
    The absence of a confirmation box is not working as intended. When I have more information on when we are adding a confirmation box for the chest re-roll, I will let you all know.
    Please do not forget to add confirmation boxes to all the other places where AS can be spent, like feat respecs, enhancement resets, gold seal hirelings, item repairs, daily rolls and direct transport to quests - and of course my new favorite: spend AS to skip quests in a saga (call me suspicious but that made me immediately think that we'll get intentionally badly designed quests in the future that we'll gladly skip by paying AS).

  7. #47
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gizeh View Post
    and of course my new favorite: spend AS to skip quests in a saga (call me suspicious but that made me immediately think that we'll get intentionally badly designed quests in the future that we'll gladly skip by paying AS).
    Nope

    What we'll get is more Coal Chambers + Crucibles!

    The Devs know full well that there are many many players who can't stand those type of quests {Mario} who would be willing to pay to skip them.

    And Elitists will carry on saying how easy they "supposedly" are and that anyone who pays to skip is a "Gimp".

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuartermasterX View Post
    The absence of a confirmation box is not working as intended. When I have more information on when we are adding a confirmation box for the chest re-roll, I will let you all know.
    Maybe QuartermasterX simply misspoke, but "the absence of a confirmation box is not working as intended" implies that a confirmation box was coded but not appearing. "When I have more information on when we are adding a confirmation box" clearly states that no confirmation box was ever added.

  9. #49
    Community Member LightBear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Maybe QuartermasterX simply misspoke, but "the absence of a confirmation box is not working as intended" implies that a confirmation box was coded but not appearing. "When I have more information on when we are adding a confirmation box" clearly states that no confirmation box was ever added.
    "the absence of a confirmation box is not working as intended" it could also mean that it is appearing sometimes while they'd rather have it isn't.

    Btw: Interesting page on the dark patterns, seen many of these (and others) out in the wild.

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  10. #50
    Community Member visibleman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldgolem View Post
    These types clever UI techniques are known as Dark Patterns. Based off of the inverted principles of usability, their intended to fool users into opting-in when they otherwise wouldn’t.

    Where user interfaces are there to make things as clear and intuitive as possible, dark patterns utilize all the black magic of confusing structure, double negatives, and bait and switch techniques in order to drive users to convert. In essence, dark patterns can be boiled do to an “easy-in” / “difficult-out” philosophy where, instead of giving users honest choices, companies assume desired their actions.


    Some excellent examples here - http://www.distilled.net/blog/web-de...dark-patterns/
    I think it was previously known as 'Marketing'.
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  11. #51
    Community Member Zyerz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    I sure am glad I've never once owned a single shard.

    Just don't click the button...
    Yep... But still, to place it right below the loot button? Maybe place it as a smaller ui button on the upper corner or something so only those interested click on it.

    I'm an interactive designer and this seems to be a bad design. I really really really hope its not a mischievous plan. It would be waaaaay too obvious and well, no one can pull something off like that without the fanbase getting angry. I'm pretty sure its just bad design.

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  12. #52
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    When has that happened in DDO? .
    Not talking about DDO, just buying stuff in general. People always complain about being charged too much for something. Rarely do they ever complain when they are charged too little. So, if you are going to be consistent, you need to insist on paying the sticker price if you are charged less than what you expected to pay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Also - Its pretty standard practice on larger ticket items, even a few hundred bucks or higher, that some amount of haggling or discounting takes place. Anything from brick and mortar music stores, to new and used car, to home and real estate sales, its not realistic to expect someone to pay the full advertised price, and in fact, much of that stuff is marked up knowing the customer is going to try to get them to come down on the price.
    To an extent.

    You walk into a car dealership and “barter” down the price on a vehicle, and feel pretty good about yourself. Realize this: you didn’t get a deal. They still made money on it, and often times they got more money from you than you thought they would.

    The only time you really get a deal is when you get charged some outrageously low price for something that’s maybe a third of the price you’d normally pay. Store often do this to get that item OUT of their inventory so that they don’t have it taking up space in their store, and so that they don’t have to pay taxes on the excess inventory.

    But this is getting way off the subject.

  13. #53
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    First, I've never heard of "dark patterns" before. Sound like some tinfoil hat nonsense.

    Second, most decent UI design has confirmations before you spend REAL money. Mainly because people get really upset when you start "mysteriously" charging stuff on their credit card. The reason why this has not been corrected with shards is because the dollar amounts are fairly small. Its a slow drip as opposed to a raging torrent.

    That being said, this type of stuff tends to get people pretty ****ed, especially when what they've done is now irreversible.

    Your best option to resolve this is to contact customer service every time you accidentally pay for something with shards. Mainly because that costs THEM money to fix, and you have a fairly solid reason for wanting it reversed : you never meant to click on the button in the first place. If you get enough people being vigilant with their spending, and demanding stuff get rolled-back, I guarantee you that you'll start seeing confirmations.

    Of course, this assumes that some enterprising lawyer hasn't already come up with the idea of a Class Action Lawsuit based on this thread. Because, like the VIP thing, this is the type of nonsense that usually gets these companies embroiled with legal suits. Cripes, I think I remember a CAL where they nailed a cellular service provider for rounding-up on unused seconds to minutes and billing people for it (IIRC).

    Time shall tell...
    In the end, you clicked the button and you got what you paid for.

    That is considered a completed and legitimate transaction.

    Most companies will NOT give you your money back in that situation, no matter how much you might whine that it was a mistake on your part. The main part is, you got what you paid for.

    The few that would refund you, might do it once, and then put it on your account, just make sure you're a fraud.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    In the end, you clicked the button and you got what you paid for.

    That is considered a completed and legitimate transaction.

    Most companies will NOT give you your money back in that situation, no matter how much you might whine that it was a mistake on your part. The main part is, you got what you paid for.

    The few that would refund you, might do it once, and then put it on your account, just make sure you're a fraud.
    Actually there are laws that have been made for internet transaction (surely micro transactions as well by now or at least, I hope so). Like many factors can end up in a breach of contract (fraud) and that is, legally. Now, I don't know if no confirmation boxes for a in-game micro transaction is one of those. But if you also understand that for non-paid things, there actually is a confirmation box... then it becomes a bit more fishy and I can see why one would actually lose trust. And possibly for a good reason since it might be close to a fraud. A small and almost harmless one in term of value, no doubt... but still.

    It's not that companies will not give your money back (because they might simply HAVE to refund you) but it's most likely that the customer himself will not know the possibilities that he has agaisnt such activities. If you can spot enought proof that it is in fact fishy, well the companies might well be better to:

    1. fix it or
    2. refund.

    Edit: Also, the fact that it's such small value helps the fact that no one will bother individually. But in the bigger scheme of event, it is a bigger deal than just one person getting tricked once.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 08-21-2013 at 07:49 PM.
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  15. #55
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    In the end, you clicked the button and you got what you paid for.

    That is considered a completed and legitimate transaction.

    Most companies will NOT give you your money back in that situation, no matter how much you might whine that it was a mistake on your part. The main part is, you got what you paid for.

    The few that would refund you, might do it once, and then put it on your account, just make sure you're a fraud.
    Mmmmm...no.

    It depends on the amounts involved. if you force people to use a specific interface for a specific service, and the interface does not take into account things like mis-clicks - which can reasonably happen - it becomes the responsibility of the people who created the interface to correct that. Otherwise they will be sued.

    Some states have laws that protect from unintentional purchases. Turbine is the one providing the service, they are responsible for content. They own the code, it is in the license agreement.

    The difference is that these are micro amounts, courts have specific limits or levels of damage claims (hence the term "small claims court").

    You want to sue Turbine for $1.00, go ahead. It will cost you way more than $1.00 to pursue it. That's there class-action suits come into play.

    All anyone need do in court would be to show the interface, point out how easy it is to mis-click something, then show something similar with a different piece of software. Add in a couple of expert witnesses, some fruitcake talking about "dark patterns," add a sympathetic jury / judge, and you've just lost a lawsuit.

    And you'd be surprised at just how sympathetic a judge and jury can be when the person brining suit is made up to be the "little guy" and Turbine as this big, evil corporation whose execs put in subliminal advertising into their graphic, light their cigars with freshly-printed $100 bills, and eat freshly-clubbed baby seals for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

    So, I hope I've explained this to everyone's general satisfaction.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldgolem View Post
    These types clever UI techniques are known as Dark Patterns. Based off of the inverted principles of usability, their intended to fool users into opting-in when they otherwise wouldn’t.

    Where user interfaces are there to make things as clear and intuitive as possible, dark patterns utilize all the black magic of confusing structure, double negatives, and bait and switch techniques in order to drive users to convert. In essence, dark patterns can be boiled do to an “easy-in” / “difficult-out” philosophy where, instead of giving users honest choices, companies assume desired their actions.


    Some excellent examples here - http://www.distilled.net/blog/web-de...dark-patterns/
    thing is, none of this applies to the AS UI´s I have seen in game. Yes, they want you to spend money. No, it is not really obfusciated. Also, I do not share your deterministic view of human nature and psychology. There is no "dark magic". Yes, people can be tricked. But people should also use their eyes and mind in dealing with any company. Again, from the shard roll to the newest addition of re-rolling loot, there is no, simply no obfusciation. Cleary stated and the symbol of a currency added to it. And please, yeah, think of the children, the rhetorical bunny in the hat used almost every time to strengthen some moral hierophantism. As was already stated, children not yet ready to deal with money responsibly should not have free access to it, especially not to their parents credit cards. If someone thinks that is reasonable parenting... well, then a fool and his money are easily parted indeed.

  17. #57
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    Actually there are laws that have been made for internet transaction (surely micro transactions as well by now or at least, I hope so). Like many factors can end up in a breach of contract (fraud) and that is, legally. Now, I don't know if no confirmation boxes for a in-game micro transaction is one of those.
    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    It depends on the amounts involved. if you force people to use a specific interface for a specific service, and the interface does not take into account things like mis-clicks - which can reasonably happen - it becomes the responsibility of the people who created the interface to correct that. Otherwise they will be sued.
    AS and TP, do not have a "Money" amount tied to them, it is clearly started that in EULA, that they posses no real world value. So even if you sued Turbine for spent AS or TP, the legal amount of your loss and thus any legal claim you have, will be zero dollars, which is again, clearly started in the EULA.

    The EULA goes on further to say, that if you have a disagreement with Turbine or it's parents/affiliates, your sole course of action is to stop playing the game, as you agree to take the game in an AS-IS state, and you agree that they are not liable for anything you lost in game, including your time, TP's or any game item (Which would include Astral Shards)

    Now, you may not have noticed, but there is no confirmation box for plat purchase from a vendor, you put what you want in the buy box and click buy, and it's yours.

    Equally so, there is no confirmation box to use an item you may have spent real world money on, IE: Store Healing Potions, Bell of Opening, Raid Timer Bypass Etc, even if you mis-clicked and paid "real money" for them, you are still not entitled to a refund.

    While making a stand for "Dark Patterns" could be a valid bit of info, and I for one found it very informative, trying to make off that there is something illegal going on or that players are entitled to refunds, is not.

    The truth is, you are accountable for everything you sign and agree to, even if you agreed to sign away your rights.

    P.S - I would also like to add that there are confirmation boxes all over the place if you go to buy TP, so, converting your "Real World Money" into "Worthless Game Tokens" was not a mistake on any level.
    Last edited by Ungood; 08-21-2013 at 08:50 PM.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    AS and TP, do not have a "Money" amount tied to them, it is clearly started that in EULA, that they posses no real world value. So even if you sued Turbine for spent AS or TP, the legal amount of your loss and thus any legal claim you have, will be zero dollars, which is again, clearly started in the EULA.

    The EULA goes on further to say, that if you have a disagreement with Turbine or it's parents/affiliates, your sole course of action is to stop playing the game, as you agree to take the game in an AS-IS state, and you agree that they are not liable for anything you lost in game, including your time, TP's or any game item (Which would include Astral Shards)
    You're right. But laws go beyond that. You could have a contract breached even if you accepted anything written in it if it happens that those "clauses" (french term maybe?) aren't fair to the customers.

    Hell, you could agree to an EULA then sue it because that one clause which you had a problem with was harder to read (like too hard) than the rest. Those terms are just used to further dissuade anyone to go beyond them and take actions.
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  19. #59
    Community Member Antheal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuartermasterX View Post
    The absence of a confirmation box is not working as intended. When I have more information on when we are adding a confirmation box for the chest re-roll, I will let you all know.
    Is this like when Mana potions were removed from the DDO Store?
    If your "Known Issues" list needs a freaking scroll bar, then one of you needs to go.

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