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  1. #21
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    It is one thing to complain about no confirmation boxes. But so far the only people I've seen who complain about being tricked as those who pretty dense to begin with. If someone is constantly being "tricked", they need to sit back and evaluate what about themselves allows them to constantly fall for something that is pretty obvious to begin with.
    Actually, it's called Trust.

    You believe the company you shop with is legit, honest, and trustworthy, so, you believe they will not try to swindle you.

    Once that Trust is Broken however.. well, anyone in marketing or business can tell you how impossible it is to get back.

  2. #22
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deep_Thought View Post
    i think Turbine need to add the Conformation box Saying your about to spend real money or there going to be in the same situation as Apple have been lately
    I think parents need to stop being lazy and properly educate their children. If someone is a fool no amount of confirmation boxes are going to prevent them from being parted with their money.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    You believe the company you shop with is legit, honest, and trustworthy, so, you believe they will not try to swindle you.
    Quite the opposite actually. I never approach a company with the mindset that I can trust them to consider what is best for their customers. Turbine has thus never disappointed me.
    Last edited by Ryiah; 08-17-2013 at 08:45 PM.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    It doesn't require someone from that company to be part of the marketing team to see how the mmo market in general and this game specifically is following social game marketing trends for the past few years now. This game has a confirmation screen on looting bound items, recalling from quests, and buying from the AH, but it cant have a confirmation when spending shards?
    I don't disagree that the trend in the MMO market is well on it's way to micro-transactions. What I was saying was the rumor or insinuation that the gentleman who came from Zynga to Turbine is not the reason behind micro-transactions being used more and more in DDO as of late. It is absolutely a market trend and to say one guy at Turbine is responsible for it happenign at DDO is simply not true

  4. #24
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    It is absolutely a market trend and to say one guy at Turbine is responsible for it happenign at DDO is simply not true
    I think it is likely Turbine hired him because he had experience in that field. If his addition to the company is allowing them to do this then he could easily be considered responsible.
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  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deep_Thought View Post
    Been a Steam Client premium Customer i don't mind spending my cash on a good game but here's my problem with there been no Conformation Box

    How many 13Yr Old's + are playing with there parents Credit card attached to the account ?
    i have seen over the past Year or so Apple having to Pay Back Loads of cash to customers who's kids have spent real money & not known!

    i think Turbine need to add the Conformation box Saying your about to spend real money or there going to be in the same situation as Apple have been lately
    I'm sorry.. What situation is that again? The one where someone buys too much 1's and 0's? and then turbine has to refund some money and continues to sell more 1's and 0's to hundreds of other people?

    for every 1 13year old that spends $1000 that gets refunded, theres probably 100 that spend 100-200 that dont.



    If you dont want your kid spending your money, DONT give him your credit card.. what a concept.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    I think it is likely Turbine hired him because he had experience in that field. If his addition to the company is allowing them to do this then he could easily be considered responsible.
    If he was a COO or on the operations side of Zynga, maybe. But with his background in infrastructure, it's is much more logical to say that he was brought on to help implement micro-transactions from a technological side long after the decision to go ahead with micro-transactions was approved by Turbine Executives.

    If that's the case, he had nothing to do with the decision, just making it work.

    If you really want to put a finger on one person who probably had the most to do with this topic, this guy the CRO anf SVPoSM - Mark Cullinane :

    http://investing.businessweek.com/re...Turbine,%20Inc.
    Last edited by Drwaz99; 08-17-2013 at 09:24 PM.

  7. #27
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    I recently came back from a six or so month break from DDO because I was fed up with the direction of the game. Now DDO is just in my cycle of games I play for a while and move on. When I came back I saw the shard buttons all over. By shard button, I mean a normal button that had a bubble next to it with a glaringly obvious blue icon in it. They are all fairly obvious. I was never fooled by any of them. Does this button have the standard look for a shard button? If the button doesn't even look the same as the loot all button, I don't think it should be as much of an issue as some people make it out to be.

    It would definitely be nice and caring of the devs to put in a confirmation window, but I wouldn't go so far as to say not putting one in is shady... probably just plain old laziness actually. Just do some intentional modifications to your own internal auto-pilot and keep going. No one can force turbine to do something useful for us, and expecting the guys trying to get your money to help you keep it seems silly to me, so I would just go with this option, while turbine digs its hole deeper.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    It doesn't require someone from that company to be part of the marketing team to see how the mmo market in general and this game specifically is following social game marketing trends for the past few years now. This game has a confirmation screen on looting bound items, recalling from quests, and buying from the AH, but it cant have a confirmation when spending shards?
    It has a confirmation dialog for upgrading ED twists, even though you can reset them an unlimited number of times for free.

    None of these interface gotchas will ever cost me any money, because I am not buying any astral shards from the DDO store as long as they continue with these hard-sell tactics. I have about 1,500 of them now, all from selling unwanted gear, and while I realize that at some point most of those were bought, it wasn't my money, and if Turbine wants some of my money tossed in that direction, they need to stop with the gimmicks.

  9. #29
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    First, I've never heard of "dark patterns" before. Sound like some tinfoil hat nonsense.

    Second, most decent UI design has confirmations before you spend REAL money. Mainly because people get really upset when you start "mysteriously" charging stuff on their credit card. The reason why this has not been corrected with shards is because the dollar amounts are fairly small. Its a slow drip as opposed to a raging torrent.

    That being said, this type of stuff tends to get people pretty ****ed, especially when what they've done is now irreversible.

    Your best option to resolve this is to contact customer service every time you accidentally pay for something with shards. Mainly because that costs THEM money to fix, and you have a fairly solid reason for wanting it reversed : you never meant to click on the button in the first place. If you get enough people being vigilant with their spending, and demanding stuff get rolled-back, I guarantee you that you'll start seeing confirmations.

    Of course, this assumes that some enterprising lawyer hasn't already come up with the idea of a Class Action Lawsuit based on this thread. Because, like the VIP thing, this is the type of nonsense that usually gets these companies embroiled with legal suits. Cripes, I think I remember a CAL where they nailed a cellular service provider for rounding-up on unused seconds to minutes and billing people for it (IIRC).

    Time shall tell...

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    First, I've never heard of "dark patterns" before. Sound like some tinfoil hat nonsense
    So everything you have never heard of is rubbish? People had never heard that the world was round at one point

    or you could, you know, take 2 seconds to google something you don't know about and educate yourself...

  11. #31
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldgolem View Post
    So everything you have never heard of is rubbish? People had never heard that the world was round at one point

    or you could, you know, take 2 seconds to google something you don't know about and educate yourself...
    Yeah, umm...I've been PC writing software for decades. I know LOTS of patterns. This ain't one of them.

    You know how many definitions in the software development world that come and go the course of a couple of years? I've forgotten more of them that any of you will even be able to remember.

    And yeah, its rubbish.

  12. #32
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Once more, for any who want to join us in the real world, you can fix this "dark pattern" idiocy by simply going to customer support and telling them that you mis-clicked on something that cost you money. They will reverser it. If they don't, leave the game. Because, after all, why would you want to continue playing a game where the customer support staff are not helpful, and will not refund the money you've lost to their bad UI design.

    And when you leave make a note of WHY you are leaving.

    When it starts costing them money, you'll see how quickly they change things...

  13. #33

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    I'm really disappointed that Turbine has stooped to this level.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deep_Thought View Post
    Been a Steam Client premium Customer i don't mind spending my cash on a good game but here's my problem with there been no Conformation Box

    How many 13Yr Old's + are playing with there parents Credit card attached to the account ?
    i have seen over the past Year or so Apple having to Pay Back Loads of cash to customers who's kids have spent real money & not known!
    This is more of a parenting issue than a Turbine issue. Wrong forum.

  15. #35
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    Let's just say I'm especially irritated that my cursor "resets" to right over the shard counter portion of the reroll shard button. That's quite annoying, especially when experiencing lag and your not sure if your click to see the chest "took" (which was happening quite often last night), so you click a second time right as the loot window pops.

    I'm not sure the shard counter portion is actually "clickable", but it during lagging that I became fairly convined I'm going to end up spending 12 shards at some point during the quests purely because of lag alone.

  16. #36
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    These types clever UI techniques are known as Dark Patterns. Based off of the inverted principles of usability, their intended to fool users into opting-in when they otherwise wouldn’t.

    Where user interfaces are there to make things as clear and intuitive as possible, dark patterns utilize all the black magic of confusing structure, double negatives, and bait and switch techniques in order to drive users to convert. In essence, dark patterns can be boiled do to an “easy-in” / “difficult-out” philosophy where, instead of giving users honest choices, companies assume desired their actions.


    Some excellent examples here - http://www.distilled.net/blog/web-de...dark-patterns/

  17. #37
    Community Member Stoner81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    The devs are sith lords.............its true.
    These are not the Dark Patterns you are looking for... you can go about your business... move along.

    Stoner81.

  18. #38
    Brand / Commerce Team QuartermasterX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldgolem View Post
    I have seen a number of people complain about spending astral shards with no confirmation box and being tricked by the design in different ways

    This is not accidental. Within design there is an area of user interface design called "dark patterns"

    The new Turbine design decisions are not by accident!
    The absence of a confirmation box is not working as intended. When I have more information on when we are adding a confirmation box for the chest re-roll, I will let you all know.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuartermasterX View Post
    The absence of a confirmation box is not working as intended. When I have more information on when we are adding a confirmation box for the chest re-roll, I will let you all know.
    Hotfix to remove the option or drop the cost to 0 AS until then?

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldgolem View Post
    I have seen a number of people complain about spending astral shards with no confirmation box and being tricked by the design in different ways

    This is not accidental. Within design there is an area of user interface design called "dark patterns"

    "A Dark Pattern is a type of user interface that has been carefully crafted to trick users into doing things, such as buying insurance with their purchase or signing up for recurring bills.

    Normally when you think of “bad design”, you think of the creator as being sloppy or lazy but with no ill intent. This type of bad design is known as a “UI anti-pattern” Dark Patterns are different – they are not mistakes, they are carefully crafted with a solid understanding of human psychology, and they do not have the user’s interests in mind." from http://darkpatterns.org/

    Companies like Zynga who litter Words with Friends etc with ads and upsell buttons are masters at this and all free to play games will eventually go down this path, as it is the path of most money (in the short term)

    Expect this, and do not expect Turbine to add confirmations or anything that helps you not spend money

    The new Turbine design decisions are not by accident!
    This greedy, moraly questionable behaviour exists all around us in grocery stores and anywhere we must make buying decisions.

    Ever walk into a grocery store, notice a huge sign of $3.99 over what is normally a very expensive item..specific example I recently edxperienced with my elderly mother was brand name frozen fish fillets that normally sell fo $11.99. Above the freezer display case was a massive sign $3.99 with some small print stating Lemon juice, above the freezer display case was a row of Real lemon juice (makes sense, goes with your fish right ?) ...so mom not knowing any better because she assumed the fish was on sale #3.99 grabs 3 packs of something should would not normally buy, goes to the cash to check out and realises that her fish was $11.99 not $3.99, so she immediately asks for the groceory manager. He shows up and listens to the story and admits she is the 8 or 9th customer to complain that day about the poorly placed and marketed sale signs...turns out..she wasn't the only one fooled and who knows how many people actually purchassed the item and didn't realise they got "misdirected".

    The signage was intentionaly placed there by marketing as the store manager admitted that they are asked to place their signage in specific locations.

    It's sad to see what this world is coming to...where profits and greed take precedence over honesty and ethcics / moralities.

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