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  1. #1
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    Default Money and dark patterns in game interface design

    I have seen a number of people complain about spending astral shards with no confirmation box and being tricked by the design in different ways

    This is not accidental. Within design there is an area of user interface design called "dark patterns"

    "A Dark Pattern is a type of user interface that has been carefully crafted to trick users into doing things, such as buying insurance with their purchase or signing up for recurring bills.

    Normally when you think of “bad design”, you think of the creator as being sloppy or lazy but with no ill intent. This type of bad design is known as a “UI anti-pattern” Dark Patterns are different – they are not mistakes, they are carefully crafted with a solid understanding of human psychology, and they do not have the user’s interests in mind." from http://darkpatterns.org/

    Companies like Zynga who litter Words with Friends etc with ads and upsell buttons are masters at this and all free to play games will eventually go down this path, as it is the path of most money (in the short term)

    Expect this, and do not expect Turbine to add confirmations or anything that helps you not spend money

    The new Turbine design decisions are not by accident!

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldgolem View Post
    I have seen a number of people complain about spending astral shards with no confirmation box and being tricked by the design in different ways

    This is not accidental. Within design there is an area of user interface design called "dark patterns"

    "A Dark Pattern is a type of user interface that has been carefully crafted to trick users into doing things, such as buying insurance with their purchase or signing up for recurring bills.

    Normally when you think of “bad design”, you think of the creator as being sloppy or lazy but with no ill intent. This type of bad design is known as a “UI anti-pattern” Dark Patterns are different – they are not mistakes, they are carefully crafted with a solid understanding of human psychology, and they do not have the user’s interests in mind." from http://darkpatterns.org/

    Companies like Zynga who litter Words with Friends etc with ads and upsell buttons are masters at this and all free to play games will eventually go down this path, as it is the path of most money (in the short term)

    Expect this, and do not expect Turbine to add confirmations or anything that helps you not spend money

    The new Turbine design decisions are not by accident!
    I hope you are wrong - and I hope the actions of the Producers and Developers will show that - fast. I fear you are right though and we to judge them on the dark patterns they do seem to be adding.

    I dont mind spending money on DDO - I have a good job and cash to spare. I very much do mind being tricked into spending money and will spend far less or even leave if I feel tricked too badly.

    So - dear Producers and Developers - please design the stuff you sell so I want to buy it - not so I am tricked into buying it. The latter makes me spend far, far less cash I can assure you

  3. #3
    The Hatchery
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    I sure am glad I've never once owned a single shard.

    Just don't click the button...

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qezuzu View Post
    I sure am glad I've never once owned a single shard.

    Just don't click the button...
    I sure am glad I've never once paid for a single shard I've owned.
    Old forum names (that I can't use anymore because of forum changes): Lehmu, Kanttura.
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    I'm also in youtube.

  5. #5
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    The devs are sith lords.............its true.

  6. #6
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    It's just down right sleazy practices. Turbine intentionally designed the interface that way to grab as much as they can. Not including a confirmation safegaurd is so filthy that I want question the team's ethics. Especially when there are a ton of confirmation safegaurds in many of their other in game interfaces.

  7. #7
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldgolem View Post
    I have seen a number of people complain about spending astral shards with no confirmation box and being tricked by the design in different ways

    This is not accidental. Within design there is an area of user interface design called "dark patterns"

    "A Dark Pattern is a type of user interface that has been carefully crafted to trick users into doing things, such as buying insurance with their purchase or signing up for recurring bills.

    Normally when you think of “bad design”, you think of the creator as being sloppy or lazy but with no ill intent. This type of bad design is known as a “UI anti-pattern” Dark Patterns are different – they are not mistakes, they are carefully crafted with a solid understanding of human psychology, and they do not have the user’s interests in mind." from http://darkpatterns.org/

    Companies like Zynga who litter Words with Friends etc with ads and upsell buttons are masters at this and all free to play games will eventually go down this path, as it is the path of most money (in the short term)

    Expect this, and do not expect Turbine to add confirmations or anything that helps you not spend money

    The new Turbine design decisions are not by accident!
    A little bird told me they have someone that use to work for Zynga working for them now
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    Somebody should definitely explain to Turbine that when they roll up a new GM that INT is not dump stat.

  8. #8
    Community Member enochiancub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkofDrasnia View Post
    A little bird told me they have someone that use to work for Zynga working for them now
    Did this person get moved into their marketing/revenue department very very recently then?

    I was under the impression that it'd been emphatically stated that no one from Zynga has anything to do with marketing and revenue.
    Last edited by enochiancub; 08-17-2013 at 12:09 PM.

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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkofDrasnia View Post
    A little bird told me they have someone that use to work for Zynga working for them now
    Don't need a birdie when there google.

    Jai Singh joins Turbine as Executive Director of Technical Operations, coming from a background with Zynga managing the technology infrastructure for some of the largest social games in the world.
    Now if he has any influence on game design is completely different set of questions. He is obviously in infrastructure, which is not even remotely a marketing or revenue based position. And to automatically correlate his hiring and the sneaky implementation AS is a bit naive.

  10. #10
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldgolem View Post
    I have seen a number of people complain about spending astral shards with no confirmation box and being tricked by the design in different ways
    It is one thing to complain about no confirmation boxes. But so far the only people I've seen who complain about being tricked as those who pretty dense to begin with. If someone is constantly being "tricked", they need to sit back and evaluate what about themselves allows them to constantly fall for something that is pretty obvious to begin with.
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  11. #11
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    It is one thing to complain about no confirmation boxes. But so far the only people I've seen who complain about being tricked as those who pretty dense to begin with. If someone is constantly being "tricked", they need to sit back and evaluate what about themselves allows them to constantly fall for something that is pretty obvious to begin with.
    It's called Psychology, a science most people disregard until it directly affects them.

    Even the most brilliant minds can be manipulated if given enough time. That is why their are war colleges (CIA/Massad (Sp?), NSA, ect...)

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by enochiancub View Post
    Did this person get moved into their marketing/revenue department very very recently then?
    Just going on my observations, DDO's marketing dpt. must extremely small. I really don't see why they're so focused on new player retentention, when there seems to be such a small focus on new player attraction.

    Quote Originally Posted by enochiancub View Post
    I was under the impression that it'd been emphatically stated that no one from Zynga has anything to do with marketing and revenue.
    As I indicated above, I doubt they're in marketing. Judging by the shady placement of the "Reroll Loot" option among other things, and the lack of confirmation boxes - they're in UI design
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  13. #13
    Community Member HernandoCortez's Avatar
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    Yup, not cool.
    EXTREME PREJUDICE™ - by Turbine.

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  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    I hope you are wrong - and I hope the actions of the Producers and Developers will show that - fast. I fear you are right though and we to judge them on the dark patterns they do seem to be adding.

    I dont mind spending money on DDO - I have a good job and cash to spare. I very much do mind being tricked into spending money and will spend far less or even leave if I feel tricked too badly.

    So - dear Producers and Developers - please design the stuff you sell so I want to buy it - not so I am tricked into buying it. The latter makes me spend far, far less cash I can assure you
    He is very right. Just do some research on who Turbine owns.
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  15. #15
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    Now if he has any influence on game design is completely different set of questions. He is obviously in infrastructure, which is not even remotely a marketing or revenue based position. And to automatically correlate his hiring and the sneaky implementation AS is a bit naive.
    It doesn't require someone from that company to be part of the marketing team to see how the mmo market in general and this game specifically is following social game marketing trends for the past few years now. This game has a confirmation screen on looting bound items, recalling from quests, and buying from the AH, but it cant have a confirmation when spending shards?

    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  16. #16
    Community Member Antheal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldgolem View Post
    I have seen a number of people complain about spending astral shards with no confirmation box and being tricked by the design in different ways

    This is not accidental. Within design there is an area of user interface design called "dark patterns"

    "A Dark Pattern is a type of user interface that has been carefully crafted to trick users into doing things, such as buying insurance with their purchase or signing up for recurring bills.

    Normally when you think of “bad design”, you think of the creator as being sloppy or lazy but with no ill intent. This type of bad design is known as a “UI anti-pattern” Dark Patterns are different – they are not mistakes, they are carefully crafted with a solid understanding of human psychology, and they do not have the user’s interests in mind." from http://darkpatterns.org/

    Companies like Zynga who litter Words with Friends etc with ads and upsell buttons are masters at this and all free to play games will eventually go down this path, as it is the path of most money (in the short term)

    Expect this, and do not expect Turbine to add confirmations or anything that helps you not spend money

    The new Turbine design decisions are not by accident!
    Never attribute to incompetence that which can be adequately explained by malice.
    If your "Known Issues" list needs a freaking scroll bar, then one of you needs to go.

  17. #17
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Even if what you say is true, it's no more nefarious than fine print, which is clearly designed NOT to be read.

    Or the worst, the many banner ads that are designed to look like legitimate links.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    Even if what you say is true, it's no more nefarious than fine print, which is clearly designed NOT to be read.

    Or the worst, the many banner ads that are designed to look like legitimate links.
    You are right. It isn't any worse than those things. And it is not a coincidence that I do not use any websites that allow such banner ads, nor do I do business with companies that try to 'hide charges' or use intentionally obfuscated billing practices.

    If game elements look like a cheep and sleezy cash grab, then that is how players will start to treat that game. And for many that means not participating.

  19. #19
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedHost View Post
    You are right. It isn't any worse than those things. And it is not a coincidence that I do not use any websites that allow such banner ads, nor do I do business with companies that try to 'hide charges' or use intentionally obfuscated billing practices.

    If game elements look like a cheep and sleezy cash grab, then that is how players will start to treat that game. And for many that means not participating.
    Every contract i've ever seen has fine print. Every eula is basically entirely a document of fine print.

    Any site that has banner ads has THOSE banner ads. Youtube is full of them.

    PS The spending of astral shards in this game isn't obfuscated. People are complaining about the lack of a confirmation box. I don't see anything wrong with adding such a thing, but it doesn't mean the original act of using the shards was caused by deception.
    Last edited by FestusHood; 08-17-2013 at 05:50 PM.

  20. #20
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    Been a Steam Client premium Customer i don't mind spending my cash on a good game but here's my problem with there been no Conformation Box

    How many 13Yr Old's + are playing with there parents Credit card attached to the account ?
    i have seen over the past Year or so Apple having to Pay Back Loads of cash to customers who's kids have spent real money & not known!

    i think Turbine need to add the Conformation box Saying your about to spend real money or there going to be in the same situation as Apple have been lately

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