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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    Well, I have two MAJOR problem with carpones build:

    The saves are pretty bad. Thats one of the reasons I abandoned the 2 cleric, and consider that an overwhelmingly successful decision.

    The other part are the druid levels, I don't like them, the doublestrike boost doesn't do it for me over 2 pally - especially when I have a backup damage boost from dreadnaught. I never run out of all my boosts - closest I come is in EE What goes up. I'd never even get to the doublestrike boost.

    I hope this feedback is well received, no disrespect meant to that build split at all, these are just my reasons for not liking it.
    The centered Cleaver build doesn't need saves. With Improved Evasion, you simply accept that you will only take half damage from nukers instead of hoping you can make saves in epic elite. That's meaningful when Ice Elementals are tossing 300 point Otiluke's Freezing Sphere. Kundarak Delving Boots may be ghetto, but they remove 90% of the reason to have meaningful Will saves. Shadowfell casters love Hold Person.

    If 2 Paladin provided access to Empower Heal Spell, then I'd be all over it. That's the primary reason for Druid. The Doublestrike Action Boost is unnecessary for my build, but provided the best synergy compared to the other class splits available.

    When U20 permits TRing into Bladeforged, and assuming Paladin levels will be required, then I'll be shifting to a 8 Fighter/6 Monk/6 Paladin centered Cleaver.
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  2. #82
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    The centered Cleaver build doesn't need saves.
    I'm gonna stop you right there. Every build need saves whether you can get them high or not. Even if you have improved evasion I would rather be able to hit 80% of the saves needed for EE content than just accept the idea that I'll take half damage.

    0 Damage>Half damage

  3. #83
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    How did you get your Charisma so high?

    Did you put level-up points into it?

    My math adds up to 38 charisma fully buffed. I can only see 42 for you--

    16 base
    10 item (26)
    5 tome (31)
    2 ship (33)
    2 yugo (35)
    2 insightful (37)
    1 exceptional (38)

    With a Litany and +3 insightful, it's 40, and with completionist it's 42.

    That said, would 38 Charisma be enough? And would you recommend putting level points into that instead of strength, since it would boost both my saves AND my strength modifier because of Pally/Divine Might?

  4. #84
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djl View Post
    How did you get your Charisma so high?

    Did you put level-up points into it?

    My math adds up to 38 charisma fully buffed. I can only see 42 for you--

    16 base
    10 item (26)
    5 tome (31)
    2 ship (33)
    2 yugo (35)
    2 insightful (37)
    1 exceptional (38)

    With a Litany and +3 insightful, it's 40, and with completionist it's 42.

    That said, would 38 Charisma be enough? And would you recommend putting level points into that instead of strength, since it would boost both my saves AND my strength modifier because of Pally/Divine Might?
    Human action surge +3. Use the +2 insightful (comes to 41), then use the surge and you've got 44.

  5. #85
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmanis View Post
    Human action surge +3. Use the +2 insightful (comes to 41), then use the surge and you've got 44.
    Ah, right.

    So, would you recommend pumping Charisma? I can get 48 Charisma with action boost and 7 level points.

  6. #86
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djl View Post
    Ah, right.

    So, would you recommend pumping Charisma? I can get 48 Charisma with action boost and 7 level points.
    No. Remember it's just the modifier that's given to str, so those 7 levels in CHA would give +4 str, for a +2 to damage.

    Actually think of it like the Monkcher rangers. Past 40 the returns diminish below the levels of usefulness without some major investment.
    Last edited by Nightmanis; 09-08-2013 at 01:11 PM.

  7. #87
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmanis View Post
    No. Remember it's just the modifier that's given to str, so those 7 levels in CHA would give +4 str, for a +2 to damage.

    Actually think of it like the Monkcher rangers. Past 40 the returns diminish below the levels of usefulness without some major investment.
    Hm.

    Well, in that case I can just take 15 charisma then and put the extra two points into dex.

  8. #88
    Community Member ycheese123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    It seems that the ninja training II bug isn't always applicable. I've been getting outstanding manyshot damage recently, very comparable to my old damage numbers, if not better.

    Bug or not, ranged still fully worthwhile
    Hm, I had no idea about bow strength not working with ninjaII. Would you say it's working often enough to the point where it's worth taking the 2 feats (wf:ranged + bow str) ?

    I ask because about a week ago I made a variant of Carpone's build that I was going to TR into. I went 12fight/6monk/2ranger. Ranger for the positive spell power, 2 free feats, and infinite arrows. However, now I'm debating going with two pally levels after seeing your build. I'm still going to use cocoon, not sure I'm gonna twist in bane of undeath to use divine might. But I think 2 Pally is worth it alone for the bonus to saves -- it's easily +10 to nearly +20 saves, which is a lot. And divine might is there if I wanna twist bane and use it.

    I'm definitely taking Manyshot whether bow strength is working or not, just wondering in your opinion is it worth the 2 feats for wf:ranged and bow str, or has ninjaII bugged it to the point where it's not worth it? Because 2 open feats would be fun.
    Last edited by ycheese123; 09-08-2013 at 01:50 PM.
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  9. #89
    Community Member cdr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ycheese123 View Post
    I ask because about a week ago I made a variant of Carpone's build that I was going to TR into. I went 12fight/6monk/2ranger. Ranger for the positive spell power, 2 free feats, and infinite arrows. However, now I'm debating going with two pally levels after seeing your build. I'm still going to use cocoon, not sure I'm gonna twist in bane of undeath to use divine might. But I think 2 Pally is worth it alone for the bonus to saves -- it's easily +10 to nearly +20 saves, which is a lot. And divine might is there if I wanna twist bane and use it.
    I LRed a character into basically Cetus's build, except 10f/6m/4pal. That way I get Emp Heal and can twist in Cocoon. -Completionist (don't have) -Stunning Blow (don't like) +Empower Heal.

  10. #90
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    The centered Cleaver build doesn't need saves. With Improved Evasion, you simply accept that you will only take half damage from nukers instead of hoping you can make saves in epic elite. That's meaningful when Ice Elementals are tossing 300 point Otiluke's Freezing Sphere. Kundarak Delving Boots may be ghetto, but they remove 90% of the reason to have meaningful Will saves. Shadowfell casters love Hold Person.

    If 2 Paladin provided access to Empower Heal Spell, then I'd be all over it. That's the primary reason for Druid. The Doublestrike Action Boost is unnecessary for my build, but provided the best synergy compared to the other class splits available.
    Huh?

    The otilukes is exactly the reason why saving with evasion is so much better. If you have ellies blasting you with otilukes, even half damage from improved evasion still results in getting whooped versus taking no damage at all, especially when you have 3-5 of them on you.

    Also, improved evasion has nothing to do with your fort save - which is just as important as reflex in the hardest end fight in this update.

    With the pally, its very easy to reach a 60 will save, I seldom get held with my boots off - which LD's unstoppable fixes easily. Boots slot better used for more meaningful gear if you can easily get a workable will save.

    Quote Originally Posted by ycheese123 View Post
    Hm, I had no idea about bow strength not working with ninjaII. Would you say it's working often enough to the point where it's worth taking the 2 feats (wf:ranged + bow str) ?

    I ask because about a week ago I made a variant of Carpone's build that I was going to TR into. I went 12fight/6monk/2ranger. Ranger for the positive spell power, 2 free feats, and infinite arrows. However, now I'm debating going with two pally levels after seeing your build. I'm still going to use cocoon, not sure I'm gonna twist in bane of undeath to use divine might. But I think 2 Pally is worth it alone for the bonus to saves -- it's easily +10 to nearly +20 saves, which is a lot. And divine might is there if I wanna twist bane and use it.

    I'm definitely taking Manyshot weather bow strength is working or not, just wondering in your opinion is it worth the 2 feats for wf:ranged and bow str, or has ninjaII bugged it to the point where it's not worth it? Because 2 open feats would be fun.
    It works fine as far as I'm concerned, my manyshots are at least as good as they used to be, but I haven't subjected it to any rigorous experimentation - even if its bugged, this build is assuming that mechanics are operating correctly.
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  11. #91
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    Another question I have regards the Master of Forms feat.

    This guide recommends taking your last level of monk at 19 so that you can take Zen Archery. So, I need to take that so that I can easily featswap with a LR whenever I get a decent bow.

    EDIT: Actually, I can't take both Epic Fort and Epic Reflexes anyway. They require ML 27, so I have to pick one.

  12. #92
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djl View Post
    Another question I have regards the Master of Forms feat.

    This guide recommends taking your last level of monk at 19 so that you can take Zen Archery. So, I need to take that so that I can easily featswap with a LR whenever I get a decent bow.

    EDIT: Actually, I can't take both Epic Fort and Epic Reflexes anyway. They require ML 27, so I have to pick one.
    Ah, they do?

    lol, I'd pick reflex
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  13. #93
    Community Member djl's Avatar
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    So, I've got as my extra feats:

    Greater Weapon Specialization
    Improved Sunder
    Force of Personality
    Precision
    Dodge
    Mobility
    Toughness

    Epic Reflex

    I don't like the idea of sitting at 18% dodge when I am not blitzing. I could probably swap Mobility for something else and still be okay, though.

  14. #94
    Community Member cdr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djl View Post
    So, I've got as my extra feats:

    Greater Weapon Specialization
    Improved Sunder
    Force of Personality
    Precision
    Dodge
    Mobility
    Toughness

    Epic Reflex

    I don't like the idea of sitting at 18% dodge when I am not blitzing. I could probably swap Mobility for something else and still be okay, though.
    Just pick up a bow - even it's a Sinew or Silver Flame. The bow component is just better and you'll learn how to play it correctly.

  15. #95
    Community Member Ellihor's Avatar
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    What is bane of undead twist for? Also, i dont have a SoS, what best weapon after it? Was thinking about sireth (dont have to but seems easier to get and upgrade as noone runs von nowdays - and maybe could get some damage from henshin mysticto it).

  16. #96
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellihor View Post
    What is bane of undead twist for? Also, i dont have a SoS, what best weapon after it? Was thinking about sireth (dont have to but seems easier to get and upgrade as noone runs von nowdays - and maybe could get some damage from henshin mysticto it).
    Its funny you should mention this

    I've been thinking about switching to sireth for about two days now, but my reasons for not doing so are purely aesthetic, I think my character just looks a lot cooler with a sword or axe than a damn quarterstaff...=D

    Sireth is probably the best DPS option. But then it changes the AP distribution entirely, since you won't need one with the blade from Kensei, and will be better off with pushing the henshin mystic line instead to acquire the tier 5 +1threat/multiplier for quarterstaffs, its much better than alacrity because of the multiplier. However, you still want power surge from kensei, but depending on how the AP's play out - I've been contemplating dropping the weapon spec/weapon focus requirements and just forget the extra bit of damage from the kensei tree. Still playing with the idea...

    The other kink to work out is the loss of litany which throws my cha odd again, the solution would be to find a cha 11 necklace with a slot, but yea...thats not happening anytime soon.

    The part where it really pulls ahead is pulverizer from LD for even more threat expansion, with fists of iron you'd have it 10-20 x3 with supreme good, planar conflux set bonus, and constant fom.

    The crappy part is that it doesn't get glancing blow procs with cleaves, which is a frustrating bug the devs still haven't fixed.
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  17. #97
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    The part where it really pulls ahead is pulverizer from LD for even more threat expansion, with fists of iron you'd have it 10-20 x3 with supreme good, planar conflux set bonus, and constant fom.
    That was changed? Last I heard pulverizer did not work with Sireth (supposedly due to the lack of bludgeon damage component)

  18. #98
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfurnace View Post
    That was changed? Last I heard pulverizer did not work with Sireth (supposedly due to the lack of bludgeon damage component)
    It doesn't? I could be completely off on this, I'll test it, thanks.

    Edit:

    You're right I just tested this, scratch the pulverizer thought. This makes sense because if you take morphic arrows it'll work with your bow. hint hint for those AA's out there.

    It stills equals out in terms of profile with the esos, slightly lower base damage - but extra 3d6 damage per hit, conflux set (although this complicates the dps difference versus litany when counting the profane str, +1 dmg, and loss of cha), and saving 1 or 2 kensei pre req feats.

    Plus, extra 25% doublestrike every 20 seconds for 10 seconds is kind've significant.
    Last edited by Cetus; 09-08-2013 at 10:40 PM.
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  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    Build Update:

    Ok, forget the cleric levels. The pally split soars ahead. I ran around the end fight of EE what goes up freely, took down a shadaver and almost a full pillar by myself while aggroing the end boss. It was pretty awesome.

    With only two levels of paladin how are you getting divine might to work. I've just tested it and you need four levels of paladin to get turn undead which provides the charges. I even tried adding the enhancement for extra turns to see if that somehow granted you turns for use with divine might, which it didn't. (strangely though it lets you buy the enhancement even though you cant use it lol)

    EDIT: AH i've worked it out. Bane of undeath Twist provides turning ability.
    Last edited by LupusVai; 09-09-2013 at 04:45 AM.

  20. #100
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    It stills equals out in terms of profile with the esos, slightly lower base damage - but extra 3d6 damage per hit, conflux set (although this complicates the dps difference versus litany when counting the profane str, +1 dmg, and loss of cha), and saving 1 or 2 kensei pre req feats.

    Plus, extra 25% doublestrike every 20 seconds for 10 seconds is kind've significant.
    Yeah, that doublestrike is quite nice. However, damage aside, Sireth makes lightning rain down. What does eSoS have to compare to giant bolts of lightning?

    However, sireth bonus effects add up to 8.75+9.15+10.5, or 28.4 - which makes up for the base damage in favour of eSoS. (And base damage would be a closer gap when you consider monk staff mastery, if you get it.) Not playing nicely with cleaves is a PITA though.

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