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  1. #1
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    Default PL Feats for melee builds.. value?

    Been playing around with ideas for melee builds, and was wondering where people were at with regards to the value of the Paladin PL feat (perhaps also with extend) and the Rogue PL feat for melee builds.

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS-Makk View Post
    Been playing around with ideas for melee builds, and was wondering where people were at with regards to the value of the Paladin PL feat (perhaps also with extend) and the Rogue PL feat for melee builds.

    Thanks
    If you are talking active feats the only good one is the monk one and only if you are a druid or a monk again. If you mean the passive feats, best to worst imo

    pally -- who doesn't like hamp
    fighter -- tactics
    monk -- dps
    ranger -- ranged dps if you are building a ranged option in as well
    rogue -- trap saves and a little sa dps but not much
    barb -- hp, might be more important with the upcoming hp/toughness nerf on monday

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    If you are talking active feats the only good one is the monk one and only if you are a druid or a monk again. If you mean the passive feats, best to worst imo

    pally -- who doesn't like hamp
    fighter -- tactics
    monk -- dps
    ranger -- ranged dps if you are building a ranged option in as well
    rogue -- trap saves and a little sa dps but not much
    barb -- hp, might be more important with the upcoming hp/toughness nerf on monday
    I was referring to the active feats. I know at one point there were some builds that had the paladin PL feat on.. and some had extend to get more out of it.. but I don't see that on too many builds lately so I was just wondering if either something changed on the feat, or over time people determined it just wasn't worth it.

  4. #4
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Personally, i like the active paladin past life feat. In the new system, feat requirements will be relaxed, and it may actually be possible to fit it into qute a few more builds. Stacking plus 3 to hit and damage. What's not to like about that? Some people splash druid just to get access to the ram's might spell.

  5. #5
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS-Makk View Post
    I was referring to the active feats. I know at one point there were some builds that had the paladin PL feat on.. and some had extend to get more out of it.. but I don't see that on too many builds lately so I was just wondering if either something changed on the feat, or over time people determined it just wasn't worth it.
    Let's look at it this way. Everyone says that you should have power attack, even if you are a two weapon fighter. Let's talk crazy here, and say you replace power attack with the paladin past life feat. Power attack would be plus 5 damage and -5 to hit. Pally PL is plus 3 damage and plus 3 to hit. The aggregate change is +8 to hit and -2 to damage. This is not a maybe, you WILL hit more often, at least 5% more often. So factor that in, and i suspect it at least balances out the differences in damage.

    Obviously the duration would be a concern, but if you could extend it, it would be better.

    People keep saying to hit doesn't matter any more. People keep being wrong. This is a ddo myth.

  6. #6
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    Personally, i like the active paladin past life feat. In the new system, feat requirements will be relaxed, and it may actually be possible to fit it into qute a few more builds. Stacking plus 3 to hit and damage. What's not to like about that? Some people splash druid just to get access to the ram's might spell.
    Problem is it's only 3x per rest. At level 20 that's 2 mins I think, if extend works on it (I've never tried) 4 mins for a total of 12 mins per shrine. That's a little too limited to burn a feat on imo.

    For your druid example a level 1 druid's base sp is 130 I believe, ram's might would be 10 sp for 5 mins, that's 65 mins per shrine.

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    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    Let's look at it this way. Everyone says that you should have power attack, even if you are a two weapon fighter. Let's talk crazy here, and say you replace power attack with the paladin past life feat. Power attack would be plus 5 damage and -5 to hit. Pally PL is plus 3 damage and plus 3 to hit. The aggregate change is +8 to hit and -2 to damage. This is not a maybe, you WILL hit more often, at least 5% more often. So factor that in, and i suspect it at least balances out the differences in damage.

    Obviously the duration would be a concern, but if you could extend it, it would be better.

    People keep saying to hit doesn't matter any more. People keep being wrong. This is a ddo myth.
    In a vacuum that would be a reasonable tradeoff, but unfortunately, power attack is a prerequisite for cleave, great cleave and overwhelming critical later on. The opportunity cost of not taking power attack is quite a bit larger than is immediately apparent. Now if there were another dps feat pathway that didn't require power attack and ended in a capstone type feat that were comparable to overwhelming critical, then it might be a different story, but we don't have that yet. This leads to the power attack feat chain being a "must have" for dps builds as a result.
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  8. #8
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Problem is it's only 3x per rest. At level 20 that's 2 mins I think, if extend works on it (I've never tried) 4 mins for a total of 12 mins per shrine. That's a little too limited to burn a feat on imo.

    For your druid example a level 1 druid's base sp is 130 I believe, ram's might would be 10 sp for 5 mins, that's 65 mins per shrine.
    I admit, i don't have any characters with paladin past lives. I did ask in a post once about which past life clickies could be metamagiced, and this is one that could be.

    I'm not really advising replacing power attack with this feat, just trying to give a comparison. I would like to have both.

    When i see those characters that reach insanely high damage or strength numbers, the breakdown is always a bunch of little things added together. This is one more little thing.

  9. #9
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    In a vacuum that would be a reasonable tradeoff, but unfortunately, power attack is a prerequisite for cleave, great cleave and overwhelming critical later on. The opportunity cost of not taking power attack is quite a bit larger than is immediately apparent. Now if there were another dps feat pathway that didn't require power attack and ended in a capstone type feat that were comparable to overwhelming critical, then it might be a different story, but we don't have that yet. This leads to the power attack feat chain being a "must have" for dps builds as a result.
    I see where you are coming from, but power attack has been a 'must have' melee feat longer than overwhelming critical has been around. It's been advocated for, since posts i remember from years ago, when Shade himself was arguing about what a terrible feat cleave was, and it was horrible that barbs were forced to take it as a feat tax. I can't find that thread now, but i assure you it exists. I think they must have changed how cleave works at some point since then.

    Also i was thinking more about two weapon fighting setups, where in my opinion, the value of the cleave, great cleave, overwhelming critical chain is debatable.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    Let's look at it this way. Everyone says that you should have power attack, even if you are a two weapon fighter. Let's talk crazy here, and say you replace power attack with the paladin past life feat. Power attack would be plus 5 damage and -5 to hit. Pally PL is plus 3 damage and plus 3 to hit. The aggregate change is +8 to hit and -2 to damage. This is not a maybe, you WILL hit more often, at least 5% more often. So factor that in, and i suspect it at least balances out the differences in damage.

    Obviously the duration would be a concern, but if you could extend it, it would be better.

    People keep saying to hit doesn't matter any more. People keep being wrong. This is a ddo myth.
    It seems a bit silly to suggest a melee (no matter how many feats they have) should replace Power Attack with the Paladin Past Life feat and Extend. If you want to hit 5% more, the easier thing to do is invest in Precision for the 5% to hit and Fort reduction.

    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    I see where you are coming from, but power attack has been a 'must have' melee feat longer than overwhelming critical has been around. It's been advocated for, since posts i remember from years ago, when Shade himself was arguing about what a terrible feat cleave was, and it was horrible that barbs were forced to take it as a feat tax. I can't find that thread now, but i assure you it exists. I think they must have changed how cleave works at some point since then.

    Also i was thinking more about two weapon fighting setups, where in my opinion, the value of the cleave, great cleave, overwhelming critical chain is debatable.
    I'm pretty sure Shade was complaining about Cleave when it was horrible and slow. It was changed a few years ago, if I remember correctly. For a THF setup, the Cleave to Overwhelming Critical is a no brainer. For a TWF setup, as you said, it can be argued whether the investment is worth it or not.

  11. #11
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    It seems a bit silly to suggest a melee (no matter how many feats they have) should replace Power Attack with the Paladin Past Life feat and Extend. If you want to hit 5% more, the easier thing to do is invest in Precision for the 5% to hit and Fort reduction.
    Even better might be to have both power attack and the past life, since you could have both on at the same time.



    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    I'm pretty sure Shade was complaining about Cleave when it was horrible and slow. It was changed a few years ago, if I remember correctly. For a THF setup, the Cleave to Overwhelming Critical is a no brainer. For a TWF setup, as you said, it can be argued whether the investment is worth it or not.
    Yeah, i thought that was the case about the Shade posts. In retrospect, they are funny though, just like the huge rage thread when the sorcerer savant lines were introduced, and 'experts' were saying anyone who actually took any of them were idiots. Pretty sure those haven't been changed much since that thread. At least not till Monday.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    ...
    barb -- hp, might be more important with the upcoming hp/toughness nerf on monday
    What are they doing to it?

  13. #13
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skaught78 View Post
    What are they doing to it?
    Toughness enhancements are pretty much gone. Some builds break even, some gain 10ish hp and some lose up to 40 or so hp if I'm remembering the math. Problem to my mind is that the builds that lost are your up front melee builds that are going to be taking more damage and thus need a little bit more hp at times. It's not a huge nerf, but if your build lost some hp, having some barb past lives could be very nice to boost your hp back up.

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    Hmmm, What is arguable on TWF taking cleave and Great Cleave?

    Not trollling, just not seeing it.

  15. #15
    Community Member Soulfurnace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by viktorserak View Post
    Hmmm, What is arguable on TWF taking cleave and Great Cleave?

    Not trollling, just not seeing it.
    Doesn't get off-hand procs, thus it lowers dps... So you're getting it almost solely for Overwhelming Critical - heavy feat investment. May be better spent on other things. /shrug.

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