Results 1 to 12 of 12
  1. #1
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    1,135

    Default The riddle of Throw Your Weight Around

    I would like to try and generate some discussion around this enhancement and how to best use it in any creative build concepts. I am personally not that interested in whether said concepts are admirable performers in EE content but be warned that others may be.

    To be clear, TYWA allows use of CON modifier for damage for one of two mutually exclusive sets of weapons: either all axes (includes throwing axes) or all picks/hammers (includes throwing hammers).

    Obtaining TYWA is going to cost minimum 18 AP in the dwarf tree. Here's a likely scenario with 2 filler AP used in Dwarven Runes:



    Taking the prereq chain gives +4 hit and +4/+5/+6 damage depending on the weapon. The core enhancements give you +2 CON and +30 HP. So consider that all together as part of this 18 AP package.

    The obvious build implications I see are:

    1. Max CON and find synergies with other CON based enhancements. The benefit to maxing CON using TYWA is that you're maxing both HP and damage with the same stat.

    2. Find synergies with a to-hit stat. I'm not aware of any way to use CHA or WIS to hit; are there any axes, picks or hammers that grant CHA/WIS to hit? The only weapon I know using CON to hit is Unkor's Cleaver. That leaves likely candidates STR, DEX, and INT.

    3. Dwarven axes are a special case as far as their qualification as two handed weapons when wielded in main hand with shield or rune arm.

    Stength to-hit: STR is still required for certain feats like power attack, thf line, overwhelming critical, etc. So there is a limit to how far you can dump it and still pick those feats you want. Your tactical feats will suffer as well. The less you dump STR, the less obvious the benefit of CON to damage becomes. We can be open to finding a combination where STR isn't entirely dumped and we have a viable to-hit from it.

    Dexterity-to-hit: Practical options are the Finesse feat, Ranger level 3 or a centered Kensai/Monk mix. These all limit your available weapons to light classed (handaxes, light picks, and light hammers). Ranger Tempest core ability gives DEX to hit with light weapons as well. It's also worth noting that Tempest level 6 core ability Graceful Death gives DEX to damage with light weapons. Monk Ninja Spy core ability gives DEX to hit with piercing and slashing weapons, "when centered". But the next core ability at level 3 also adds DEX to damage with piercing and slashing weapons. So the challenge with those options is identifying a reason to use DEX to hit where it's not already better to go all the way and max DEX for damage too.

    Intelligence-to-hit: Granted for axes, picks, hammers only one way that I know, which is with Insightful Strikes artificer spell.

    I know the artificer angle has been discussed a little already, and I was scratching together a 15/3/2 artificer/barbarian/rogue to try on Lamannia myself which I'll post up later to get some ball rolling.

    Please feel free to add some ideas or build concepts for this enhancement!

  2. #2
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    752

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    I would like to try and generate some discussion around this enhancement and how to best use it in any creative build concepts. I am personally not that interested in whether said concepts are admirable performers in EE content but be warned that others may be.

    To be clear, TYWA allows use of CON modifier for damage for one of two mutually exclusive sets of weapons: either all axes (includes throwing axes) or all picks/hammers (includes throwing hammers).

    Obtaining TYWA is going to cost minimum 18 AP in the dwarf tree. Here's a likely scenario with 2 filler AP used in Dwarven Runes:



    Taking the prereq chain gives +4 hit and +4/+5/+6 damage depending on the weapon. The core enhancements give you +2 CON and +30 HP. So consider that all together as part of this 18 AP package.

    The obvious build implications I see are:

    1. Max CON and find synergies with other CON based enhancements. The benefit to maxing CON using TYWA is that you're maxing both HP and damage with the same stat.

    2. Find synergies with a to-hit stat. I'm not aware of any way to use CHA or WIS to hit; are there any axes, picks or hammers that grant CHA/WIS to hit? The only weapon I know using CON to hit is Unkor's Cleaver. That leaves likely candidates STR, DEX, and INT.

    3. Dwarven axes are a special case as far as their qualification as two handed weapons when wielded in main hand with shield or rune arm.

    Stength to-hit: STR is still required for certain feats like power attack, thf line, overwhelming critical, etc. So there is a limit to how far you can dump it and still pick those feats you want. Your tactical feats will suffer as well. The less you dump STR, the less obvious the benefit of CON to damage becomes. We can be open to finding a combination where STR isn't entirely dumped and we have a viable to-hit from it.

    Dexterity-to-hit: Practical options are the Finesse feat, Ranger level 3 or a centered Kensai/Monk mix. These all limit your available weapons to light classed (handaxes, light picks, and light hammers). Ranger Tempest core ability gives DEX to hit with light weapons as well. It's also worth noting that Tempest level 6 core ability Graceful Death gives DEX to damage with light weapons. Monk Ninja Spy core ability gives DEX to hit with piercing and slashing weapons, "when centered". But the next core ability at level 3 also adds DEX to damage with piercing and slashing weapons. So the challenge with those options is identifying a reason to use DEX to hit where it's not already better to go all the way and max DEX for damage too.

    Intelligence-to-hit: Granted for axes, picks, hammers only one way that I know, which is with Insightful Strikes artificer spell.

    I know the artificer angle has been discussed a little already, and I was scratching together a 15/3/2 artificer/barbarian/rogue to try on Lamannia myself which I'll post up later to get some ball rolling.

    Please feel free to add some ideas or build concepts for this enhancement!

    The first thing I thought when i saw this enhancement was a dwarf battle cleric. Now, we'll have to wait until 19.1 to see what the war priest tree offers, but a dwarf with 14/8/18/8/16/12 would be nice. Divine might will still grant full BAB, and str should still be able to hit "reasonable" numbers for to-hit purposes (since you get twice your str)


    another thing i've been toying with is a kensei-monk ranger 8/6/6 with high dex/con/wis, something like 12/16/18/8/15/8, dualwielding dwarven axes with kensei-centered option, switching between GM earth and wind stances as the situation required. Ninja spy will allow dex-to-hit/damage when required, but when the build needs to tank, switches to earth stance, but retains decent damage.


    other ideas i've had but haven't really thought through:
    bard warchanter, 14/8/20/8/8/14- enough strength for PA line, max con
    druid- ONLY if it works in animal form, need to test
    dwarf lich- 12/10/18/18/8/6, wielding a great axe, with tenser's active
    TWF barbarians seems to get the most benefit though, since you could have 15/15/20/8/8/6, since they can max con and get the same damage output (most rage effects that increase str increase con as well.)

  3. #3
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    17,692

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hit_fido View Post
    2. Find synergies with a to-hit stat. I'm not aware of any way to use CHA or WIS to hit; are there any axes, picks or hammers that grant CHA/WIS to hit? The only weapon I know using CON to hit is Unkor's Cleaver. That leaves likely candidates STR, DEX, and INT.
    To-hit is less important than it used to be, but it's not unimportant. And this looks like it will be a bigger drawback for a CON-based dwarf than a DEX-based elf using Grace; since DEX already applies to ranged to-hit and there are ways of making it apply to melee as well (i.e., Finesse, rgr Tempest).
    Stength to-hit: STR is still required for certain feats like power attack, thf line, overwhelming critical, etc. So there is a limit to how far you can dump it and still pick those feats you want. Your tactical feats will suffer as well. The less you dump STR, the less obvious the benefit of CON to damage becomes. We can be open to finding a combination where STR isn't entirely dumped and we have a viable to-hit from it.
    With base STR 11 (3 pts) + 2 tome, you can pick up Power Atk/Cleave/GC (and Lay Waste+Momentum Swing); with base STR 15 (8 pts) + 2 tome, you can pick up the THF chain as well. [Adjusting accordingly if you have bigger tomes.] So on a 32-pt build, that's at most 25% of your stat pts, leaving plenty for high CON plus a couple other stats. If you want Overwhelming Crit, though, I don't see any practical benefit to TYWA, since you need base STR 23 for OC.

    Between the high AP cost, lack of options for using CON instead of STR for to-hit, and ofc the fact there are way more STR-only bonuses than CON-only bonuses (e.g., Power Surge, Divine Might post U19), TYWA looks like it will be primarily a flavor thing; like maybe a CON-based tank or battlecleric. I also thought about CON-based Tempest II with dumped DEX and a pally splash for Divine Grace to help w/saves (particularly Reflex).
    Revisiting the Classics: Axesinger / Dwarven Defender / Drow Ninja / Drow Paladin / Elven Ranger / Monkcher / Sacred Vanguard
    Other build threads: Cleric Domains / Kundarak Brigade / Iconic Builds
    My Build Index: a Motley Menagerie of Original Rapscallions, Pugilists, and Gimps!

  4. #4
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    1,135

    Default

    This is the concept I was looking at.

    Artificer 15/Barbarian 3/Rogue 2

    Free feat: rapid reload
    7 standard feats: thf, ithf, gthf, power attack, cleave, great cleave, ic: slashing
    3 artificer feats: point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot

    Starting at 20 CON, should end you up to about 38 at level 20 and 46 at level 25:

    20 +5 levelup, +4 tome, +6 enhancement, +3 ap = 38; +2 levelup, +2 enhancement, +3 insight, +1 exceptional = 46

    That's 50 with Tensers and 54 with rage; so somewhere between +18 and +22 damage bonus. Split most of the rest between STR (only enough to get thf line), then DEX and INT.



    dwarf
    1 dwarven toughness: +10 hp
    2 . dwarven weapon training +1 att/dam
    2 dwarven constitution: +1 CON
    2 . dwarven weapon training +1 att/dam
    1 dwarven toughness: +10 hp
    2 . dwarven weapon training +1 att/dam
    2 . dwarven runes x2: +2 saves vs spells
    2 dwarven constitution: +1 CON
    2 . dwarven weapon training +1 att/dam
    1 . throw your weight around: CON to damage
    = 18

    artificer: battle engineer
    1 battle engineer:
    2 . weapon training: +1 att/dam, +2% glancing proc
    2 . thermal venting x2: rune arm cool down +20%
    1 infused weapons: +1 weapon enhancement; +1 crit confirm/damage;
    2 . weapon training: +1 att/dam, +2% glancing proc
    2 . thaumaturgical conduits x2: rune arm chargee +20%
    1 infused armor: +1; +5 ppr;
    2 . weapon training: +1 att/dam, +2% glancing proc
    6 . extra action boost x3
    2 . arcane capcitors x1: charge decay 25% slower
    1 infused weapons: +1 weapon enhancement; +1 crit confirm/damage;
    2 . weapon training: +1 att/dam, +2% glancing proc
    2 . battle mastery: endless fusilade
    = 26
    (44)

    artificer: arcanotechnician
    1 arcanotechnician: +1 usp per point
    3 . wand/scroll mastery x3: +75% spell casting items
    = 4
    (48)

    barbarian: frenzied berserker
    1 die hard
    3 . extra rage x3
    1 . die harder
    1 toughness: +10 hp
    3 . angry arms x3: +3% glancing proc; +5% glancing damage (req: thf)
    3 . extra action boost x3
    1 . sprint boost x1: +35% movement
    3 . blood tribute x3: +100 temp hp; -1 CON
    3 . mad munitions x3: +3% glancing proc; +5% glancing damage (req: gthf)
    2 . +1 CON (note: this works well as your odd/even stat toggler depending on gear)
    = 21
    (69)

    rogue: acrobat
    1 acrobat
    3 . sly flourish x3: +1.5[W] hit; +3 crit range; 12 sec cd
    1 . faster sneaking; +20% sneak speed
    6 . haste boost x3; +30% attack speed
    = 11
    (80)

    Similar to the posted concept by MajMal, I was aiming to maximize glancing blow damage; the THF line gets 50% damage on procs and 9% special effect proc chance; the enhancements add 10% damage and 14% proc chance for 60% damage/23% proc. Thus three barbarian levels to grab angry arms and mad munitions. Are those really worth it? I don't know.

    But the other synergies with barbarian looked attractive too. I'm less interested in the rages, although we get 3 extra in the course of unlocking higher frenzied tiers, they'd be short and only used selectively. Everyone likes sprint boost. Three more action boosts are great - with the ones from battle engineer tree, they give us a total of six extra to power our haste boosts and fusilades. But the most intriguing enhancement here for a max CON build was blood tribute. I see that as a sort of oh s**t button, something like a cocoon with out the rejuvenation. Because this build isn't self casting heal spells and must rely on scrolls, the idea is, can it survive each encounter and come out alive after which it's trivial to Heal scroll back to full. With all the CON built in as fuel, you could punch tribute 5 or 10 times and still not really feel the effects. You wont get that CON back til the next shrine, but in most quests they are plentiful and frequent. For boss fight prep, it's also potentially useful - how much temporary damage buffer can this build achieve with tribute (100), ablative armor (50), stoneskin (150+), greater heroism (~15?), false life wand or scroll (~15?)...

    I don't see it as a tank. The risk is that it ends up with poor enough defenses that it becomes nothing more than bucket of HP and temporary HP. My answer to that, aside from having wand/scroll mastery at +75% for efficient self healing between fights; was rogue for evasion but I could see giving up evasion and taking fighter levels and wearing heavy armor for better PRR. Not sure which is better. PRR might make more sense as it's a melee artificer afterall. Besides evasion, rogue brings the important haste boost which lets us keep endless fusilade available when we need to kill something quicker at range or maybe soften up a group before wading in. But a level of fighter would do the same thing. The least this build should do is find a ghostly item, and bring some displacement clickies and scrolls.

    After level 20 I can see using legendary dreadnought and then switching the acrobat tree out and taking haste boost from LD tree. The freed AP could go into rogue assassin tree for envenomed blades, perhaps.

    As noted above the drawback of lower strength is not having a lot of obvious epic feats to choose from. Maybe the best two at 21 and 24 are toughness and epic toughness?

    It's not any farther than this rough idea. Other thoughts were whether it should just go the juggernaut wannabe route with 16 artificer and construct essence. Then it could fit quicken and at least have some half powered on demand self healing. I prefer dwarf but why bother making a weaker version of a juggerrnaut? Lets say subject to further edits or dismissal.
    Last edited by hit_fido; 08-16-2013 at 04:26 PM.

  5. #5
    The Hatchery samthedagger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    The Church of the Sovereign Host
    Posts
    1,836

    Default

    I suppose if you were insane enough to toss a rare +5 Str tome that you were damned lucky to get in the first place onto a dwarf barbarian, you could max both Con and Str and still have 4 points around (assuming at least two past lives) and have enough Str to qualify for Overwhelming Critical. Getting a +5 anything tome is a dream for even the best of us though. I don't know of anyone who has +5 tomes for all six stats, although I know of a few who have a +5 in one or two or even three, and they are some of the top players in my server or folks who just farm raids for completions. But as I said, you'd have to be insane enough to put it on a barbarian.

  6. #6
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    1,135

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ArcaneArcher52689 View Post
    druid- ONLY if it works in animal form, need to test
    Thought this was interesting so I tried it out. Going by the display, it works. The displayed damage on the weapon tooltip when an axe was in main hand in wolf form shows CON being used for damage. I didn't actually try to test the damage numbers which is probably a necessary confirmation...

    So for this I was thinking, something like 17/2/1, druid/[evasion]/[fighter/ranger] with (if 36 pt build) starting CON 20 and starting WIS 18, but level ups in WIS; build it like a caster but with better melee capability that would otherwise be available on a caster druid?

  7. #7
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    3,994

    Default

    I am going to read this thread carefully, just quickly posting here this link
    http://ddowiki.com/page/List_of_weap...or_damage_mods

  8. #8
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    1,135

    Default

    Paladins are considered weak and most people are not happy with how they came out of the enhancement pass. So granted they may not be the most exciting possibility, but consider:

    THF/ITHF/GTHF (36 pt, at level 20 / 25)

    Str: 30/39 (14 starting +3 tome +6 enhancement + 7 divine might / +2 enhancement +3 insight +1 exceptional +3 divine might)
    Dex: 8 + whatever
    Con: 37/44 (20 starting +5 levels +4 tome +2 dwarf + 6 enhancement / +2 enhancement +3 insight +1 exceptional +1 level)
    Int: 12 + whatever
    Wis: 8 + whatever
    Cha: 24/30 (14 starting +4 tome +6 enhancement / +2 enhancement +3 insight +1 exceptional)

    TWF/ITWF/GTWF (36 pt, at level 20 / 25)

    Str: 24/33 (8 starting +3 tome +6 enhancement + 7 divine might / +2 enhancement +3 insight +1 exceptional +3 divine might)
    Dex: 23/25 (14 starting +3 tome +6 enhancement / +2 enhancement)
    Con: 37/44 (20 starting +5 levels +4 tome +2 dwarf + 6 enhancement / +2 enhancement +3 insight +1 exceptional +1 level)
    Int: 12 + whatever
    Wis: 8 + whatever
    Cha: 24/30 (14 starting +4 tome +6 enhancement / +2 enhancement +3 insight +1 exceptional)

    Particularly in the TWF scenario, divine might more than makes up for the dumped strength to still provide a good to-hit, while damage (and more HP) comes from CON.

    Perhaps dwarfs can become the most attractive paladin option, for what that's worth?

  9. #9
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    8

    Default Dwarven Earth Savant?

    I have toyed around with the idea of a dwarf earth savant for a while... not sure if it will work practically but there are some synergies there:
    - EaS line has +CON enhancements
    - the EaS earth grab SLA uses CON mod for DC
    - picking up the dwarf dragonmark will effectively give two high DC earth grabs
    - Tensers and the elemental form will help with melee combat - more so Tensers than elemental form
    - the 'crumbling' EaS core enhancement gives improved destruction on spell damage, which will help with melee damage (as will the 'helpless' condition from earthgrab)

    Haven't fleshed out the stats, but apart from maxing CON. STR would also be reasonably important for to hit and to pick up combat feats - would go for at least 14.

    Would keep CHA at 12; you're never going to be a great DC caster but are relying on non-save DOTs - the acid line has a few. The 12 just makes it easier to ensure you have enough CHA to cast the high level spells.

    For feats, would definitely pick up maximise and empower to help with spell damage. Maybe extend for buffs. Combat feat wise, would pick up power attack. Improved crit for chosen weapon. Admittedly you will be squeezed for feats.

    With regards to weaponry, would stick with a 2-hander affected by TYWA. If you have enough dex, TWF is an option but you are already squeezed for feats and stat points.

    Would get some nice synergies with Conc Opp and Torc, as you'd be getting hit often enough in melee.

    Thoughts?

  10. #10
    Community Member elg582's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    818

    Default

    9 monk/8 fighter/3 ranger TWF axe dwarf;

    STR 13
    DEX 15 +2 tome
    CON 19 + all levels
    INT 8
    WIS 14
    CHA 6

    Leveling order:

    1R Toughness
    2F WF: Slash
    3F Power Attack, Cleave
    4R
    5F
    6F WS: Slash, Great Cleave
    7F
    8F ITWF
    9F IC: Slash
    10F GWF: Slash
    11M Dodge
    12M GTWF, Mobility
    13M monk path
    14M
    15M Master of Forms
    16M Improved Sunder
    17M
    18M Grandmaster of Forms
    19M
    20R
    21 Epic Toughness
    22
    23
    24 Epic Toughness
    25
    26
    27 Epic Toughness :O
    28

    Enhancements:

    Kensei 36 AP
    -One with the Blade
    -Haste Boost
    -Reed in the Wind
    -Improved Dodge

    Dwarf 18 AP
    -Throw Your Weight Around

    Ninja 13 AP
    -Shadow Veil
    -Sting of the Ninja

    Shintao 7 AP
    -Deft Strikes

    Tempest 6 AP
    -Tempest
    Last edited by elg582; 09-23-2013 at 10:43 PM.

  11. #11
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    North Cackalacky
    Posts
    9,593

    Default

    I looked at a number of different options. I think splits that try to maximize con only may end up being weak in other areas.

    If I try it, I think I've settled on pure Bard.

    (1) TWF
    (3) Extend -> Quicken at some later point
    (6) PA
    (9) ITWF
    (12) Improved Crit (blunt or pierce)
    (15) GTWF
    (18) Empower Healing
    (21) Inspire Excellence

    CON = 20 + 7 levels + 4 tome + 2 boat + 2 rage + 13 items (10/2/1) + 2 dwarf + 2 warchanter cap + 2 excellence
    + Tensers
    + Primal Scream
    + 3-4 more from items, additional tome, whatever

    DEX 14 or so (prior to tome); STR 14 maybe - rest CHA. If you don't have the tomes or are on 28 point builds, not going to be pretty. Maybe you'd need to swap PA for something else (and that would blow)

    Enhancements
    18 in dwarf to get to Throw Your Weight Around
    47 (or so) in Warchanter to get to the crit expander, etc. and capstone
    10 or so in Spellsinger (sharp note, magical training, etc.)

    Few left over for whatever.

    That's as close as I can get.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  12. #12
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    South Island, NZ
    Posts
    814

    Default

    I know its gimp but with the +15% capstone to bear form attack with 20 Druid how about:

    Dwarven Druid 20:

    -Maxed Con, lvl ups to con.
    -Con from Dire Bear
    -D axe + Shield
    Feats: Exotic Weapon D axe, Shield Mastery, Impr Shield Mastery, Empower Heal, 3 X Natural Fighting, Toughness at 21, Epic Toughness at 24.

    Personally I think you can get away without quicken with a monstrous concentration skill.
    It's a bear so it will never be truly awesome but still could be fun.
    Toons:
    Smallmans Syndrome, Rovac, Dragnipur, Prettyhater Machine, Lubed, Castinfist
    Emmpeethree, Hyperkill Hyperthrill and Greyvegas (All on Khyber)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload